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Client has asked me to cover block wall (8x8x16 std. CMU) with T1-11 siding. Somehow I’ve escaped this sort of work before, and I’m clueless as to best way to attach. Can’t use furring strips… T1-11 must lay directly against block. Tested with hard cut nails… no luck, and lots of hard work. Thinking low velocity loads driving 1-1/2″ nails will work best, but need to hear from you with experience. Also, do I aim for the mortar joints, or the block itself? Would construction adhesive be of value?
Thanks, Steve
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Steve good question,Furring strips i would think would be the best way to start but since this isnt an option for you i am waiting to see what kinds of solutions the guys in here come up with. I also have never had to do this type of application with T-111 but i have seen it shot on with power accuated nails didnt really look to good when it was done, The guy who was doing it, left on the rubber peice that is on the end of the nails that keeps it centered in the gun After the nails were shot. Really looked like crap, As for where to place the nail i stay away from the morter joints and nail into the block.As for construction adhesive i dont think it would hurt. You might want to consider using some stratigicaly placed Tapcons, but i dont know how that would look either when you are done.
*I'm faced with a similar situation in putting T1-11 over rastra block (ICF material). I had been under the impression that I could screw it to the rastra but the company said no I would have to glue/nail furring strips and place the ply to that.Reason given was differing rates of expansion, which might be the case with you as well. However, I'm still tempted try a section with subfloor adhesive and see how it works out...In the past, I've nailed small sections with a ramset but it's never pretty - guess you could use a concrete nail gun ($$)?Good luck - Don
*I would glue it real well and then put 1" or 1-1/2" Tension nails into the t-111 to hold it until the glue dries. (Tension Nails are small nails with small heads that are used to hold acoustical ceiling wall moulding directly to concrete block). You can get them from any commercial interior material supplier.We use these when we attach drywall to block. We put drywall compound on the block wall and then use Tension nails to hold it there so the mud can dry.They hold wall moulding to block real well and work best if nailed into mortar joint (altough they can be driven directly into the block).Billy
*Steve, I have never put T1-11 directly over block, but like Billy, I have hung drywall on block with tension nails. No problem there, but I would be a little concerned about the nails being "bleeders" when exposed to the elements. Maybe a good coat of paint would keep the nails from rusting. You did not say if the siding was to be painted or stained. In either case be sure to seal the top and bottom of the panels. I have had the misfotune of some T1-11 de-laminating on me, and the suplier trying to duck his responsibility by saying I hadn't sealed the edges. Fortunately a piece of the same lot setting in thier shed was doing the same thing. Good Luck,dave
*You might try the glue, nails or tapcons then cover your rows of nails with some 1x2 trim for looks and you could Tapcon thru them and counter sink and fill holes. Good Luck.
*I'm wondering why the cut nails didn't work? Try a bigger hammer....and make sure you're hitting the mortar. Never done t111...but have placed drywall directly to alot of brick and block. You may be surprised how well short roofing nails work too....either they go all the way in...or catch enough to hold till the liquid nails sets and bend over...in which case ya just pull them after its all solid. Or...tap con a few battens....as braces...and back then out if you don't want them there. Or, just tap con the ply. Or try the cut masonary nails again. Are you talking about the "new" fluted masonery nails, or the "old style" that look like a horseshoe nail? I prefer the "old style"....and a big hammer. Jeff
*Jeff,Ditto on the roofing nails.Billy
*Thanks to all of you for the excellent suggestions.I've found a source for the tension nails (I'd never heard of them... they're also called "Angel Nails" around here), and I'm gonna do some tests today with scrap materials in small areas. The idea of hundreds of Tapcons wasn't initially apealing, but Jeff's idea of removable battens with either tapcons or roofing nails sounds practical, so I'll include that in the tests. I was using the non-fluted "horseshoe" cut nails, butI'll try that again, too.I'll let y'all know what I decide on for the final installation (about 12 sheets of T1-11), and I suspect it will be a combination of all your contributions.Thanks again, Steve
*FEEDBACK... Will use combination of construction adhesive and tension nails (box is labeled "Tension Pins") for the installation as suggested by Billy. I located the tension nails at our local drywall distributor. A few strategicaly placed Tapcons will be used, too, and we'll fill the spots as recommended by Ron. First, we're knocking off any nubs of mortar to get the smoothest possible surface on the block... the masons did a nice job, so we should have smooth, even planes to work with. We've pre-primed and sealed the edges and a few inches of the back side of the T1-11 as Dave R. suggested (always a good practice with T1-11, I understand).Trials with the low velocity/powder-actuated fasteners left us with the scraps of plastic nail guides that Dave T. found objectionable. The tension nails not only are cheaper, but frankly take less time to drive in. Didn't have any real luck with the cut nails (perhaps I'm just too old and weak to drive in those rascals).Don may have a point about differing rates of expansion, but I am hoping this will not be of concern for this project. With vinyl, it would be a serious issue...I found that we can drive the tension nails flush, then set them an additional 1/8" or so for a dash of putty/prime. Hopefully they'll be less noticable and won't bleed through the final painted finish.A couple of footnotes: Local code compliance had no problem with laying the T1-11 directly on masonry since the application is merely decorative (i.e., non-structural). Also, my 24-hour test on loose blocks showed excellent adhesion to DRY blocks, but weak adhesion to a damp block, even though the construction adhesive is rated for "wet, frozen or treated lumber"... of course cement blocks aren't lumber, but it makes me wonder if conventional subfloor adhesion to damp joists would be marginal.Thanks, again to everyone for the prompt, meaningful responses to my inquiry... just what I've come to expect from the folks at this forum.Regards, Steve
*Good luck, Steve.Billy
*I've done this with Tapcon screws with no problems. The masonry bit will go through the T-111 easily so there is no need for two bits. Flat head screws will countersink themselves to an acceptable level. There is no more need to fill the holes than with nails.
*I have one other suggestion, which is a combination of some of the above. I only had to do this one time and could see it was going to be a nasty job. I have a Bostitch MIII concrete pin nailer that I use for installing furring strips on block walls. I used small cutoffs of 2x4 as a "washer" and shot 2 1/2" T-nails through them to hold the T1-11 until the construction adhesive set up. Then you just remove the blocks. It's still a nasty job, but at least this method made it go quickly! Maybe you can find one at a rental place or borrow one for the job. And BTW , make sure you get panels that are FLAT, FLAT or forget it!!
*Why couldn't you use furring strips.just wondering,Pete
*Pete, the T1-11 needs to lie on the same plane as other T1-11 already applied to conventional framing above above the cement block. Otherwise, furring strips would be the logical solution.Thanks for asking, Steve
*Fur over the old T1-11 too, and cover the whole thing up with new.
*Or step it and add a ledge.Pete
*Good ideas, Mark and Pete, but the client wanted it in the same plane...Anyhow, the job is now completed, so here's the final feedback:First, we did some destructive testing on T1-11 scraps attached to loose blocks with only with tension nails/pins and construction adhesive: After 72 hours, we pulled the pins with a cat's paw and then tried to remove the T1-11. The stuff splintered and delaminated, indicating that the glue is doing its job. Only one pin was used per block, over a 3/8" bead of adhesive.For the actual job, we had some dry, flat T1-11 to work with and the block itself was dry. I ran a 4-ft aluminum angle bar over the block wall as a screed and high-lighted any mortar projections with a magic marker. These high points were kissed with a 4-1/2" grinder using a masonry wheel. It took ony about 30 minutes to do this for 54 feet of wall.We ran vertical 3/8 to 1/2" beads of adhesive 8" O.C.. nailing off 8" horizontally and 12" vertically in the field. We did the nailing IMMEDIATELY after running the adhesive beads. (One tube of adhesive was good for about two sheets) The T1-11 settled on so tight and flat that we never plugged in the Bosch or opened the Tapcons... nothing but tension nails/pins.Thanks again, everyone!Regards, Steve
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Client has asked me to cover block wall (8x8x16 std. CMU) with T1-11 siding. Somehow I've escaped this sort of work before, and I'm clueless as to best way to attach. Can't use furring strips... T1-11 must lay directly against block. Tested with hard cut nails... no luck, and lots of hard work. Thinking low velocity loads driving 1-1/2" nails will work best, but need to hear from you with experience. Also, do I aim for the mortar joints, or the block itself? Would construction adhesive be of value?
Thanks, Steve