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attaching to soft antique brick

mazbro | Posted in Construction Techniques on January 14, 2004 12:48pm

Hello all, I am a remodeler speciallizing in historic rehabs. I have been a reader of FH for many years, and have learned much from the many fine articles. I am trying to attach a custom made iron wine rack to an exposed chimney in my own house. I have proper sized all-thread, and I have used structural epoxies many times with success. My concern is whether the, now exposed, soft ,106 year old brick will hold my anchors. Total weight will ptrobably be 60# to 75#. Appreciate any thoughts .

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  1. UncleDunc | Jan 14, 2004 01:11am | #1

    If you mount it on a wood backer board of some kind, you can mount the board to the brick with as many screws as it takes to make you feel confident.

    1. mazbro | Jan 16, 2004 08:53pm | #8

      Hi Unc, Sorry it took me so long to answer, but I have 15month old twin boys, and I can't find the time to sit at this machine. I am afraid mama won't let me use any more wood in this kitchen (she already thinks iM a woo snob) I have been thinking of adding an additional strap to the back og the rack, wider  and longer than the attachment strap, allowing me to add more anchors.

  2. JoeyB | Jan 14, 2004 03:58am | #2

    I have always had good success with lead anchors

    1. mazbro | Jan 16, 2004 08:56pm | #9

      Hi Joey B,  I too have had good sucess with lead anchors and still use them. I prefer apoxy though for heavy duty anchoring. It is great stuff, but a little pricey unless you have several anchors to set.

  3. ClaysWorld | Jan 14, 2004 04:56am | #3

    Hi Mazbro2

     How many ancors? will there be any substantal movement of the rack?

    Clay

    1. JoeyB | Jan 14, 2004 05:27am | #4

      I have hung mirrors weighing probably 100 pounds and have used 3 lead anchors, good size ones. You can feel if they are gripping well. If you get a loose one it will come out! I'm paranoid so I always put one or two more anchors and screws than I need. Old brick is can be sketchy so better safe than sorry!

      1. skids | Jan 14, 2004 08:32am | #6

        i have another question not an answer, sorry. masonry is not my particular area of expertise, but i have been around some hysterical remodels and i heard from the GC/owner of an old brick building being earthquake retrofitted in a seismic zone 4 in california that all anchors would be attached in the grout lines, not the brick itself.

        it could be that you all knew this already which is why there was no mention of it by previous posters but just for my own knowledge i have to ask is this correct? the guy i know was pretty adamant about drilling and anchoring only in grout lines, and i just want to make sure this is the right way to approach this project.

        1. JoeyB | Jan 15, 2004 04:51am | #7

          Most of your mortar joints around my area are so soft that they won't hold anything.Coming to you from beautiful Richmond, Va.

    2. mazbro | Jan 16, 2004 09:00pm | #10

      Clay, As designed there are two 1/4" holes on each side. The rack is about 30" wide and 18" high. The holes are in a 3/4" strap appeox. 6" from each side and 6" from top and bottom. Other than placing and taking bottles, there should little movement.

  4. Piffin | Jan 14, 2004 08:30am | #5

    Go for it. If you can drill the holes without blowouts, you are OK

    .

    Excellence is its own reward!

  5. csnow | Jan 16, 2004 10:41pm | #11

    75 pounds ain't much.  Unless the mortar itself gives way, you should be fine.

    If your epoxy method calls for a fastener embedded in an 'oversize' hole, there is very little 'splitting' force exerted on the brick (unlike with screws or driven fasteners).  I think you could swing on the rack, if you like...

    1. mazbro | Jan 17, 2004 07:23pm | #12

      I think you are right. I am putting my paranoia aside and going for it. I will let you all know how it "hangs". Thanks to all who replied. I enjoyed this dialog, and will continue to read and learn, and possibly pass on some of my own experience.

      1. ponytl | Jan 17, 2004 09:35pm | #13

        Man i fight this everyday... old buildings (80-120yo) soft brick and weak mortar...  first you have 3-5 layers/rows of brick (exterior walls) and a lime based mortar with a compression of less than 1000psi... some as low as 200psi using unclean river or god forbid beachsand (in coastal areas)  the outer layers of brick will be fired (but nothing near todays standards) the inner courses will be everything clinks, unfired, broken ect.. the inner/inside will usually be fired but not  as well as the outer layer...

        ok first you have a lime mortar... which is soft, old, & moves  but it's also "self healing" in that ...as it moves cracks form and a little moisture will let it it swell grow and seal it self up... it also doesn't need exspansion joints even in a 40 X 150 ft  wall but it does need to breath... meaning exterior paints & water proofing will kill it over time... 

        second.. you have soft brick... it's soft but it's harder than the lime mortar by design... so the joints give and not the brick....

        introduce people thinking they are fixing things (tuck pointing and repairing) with portland mortar... then you have a joint that is harder than the brick... and as things move you get the brick being broken by this movement and hard mortar and chunks of mortar being displaced....

        all this so u can hang a wine rack...  the load in shear is not a big problem... but if it was me and i was worried at all, then i'd make sure my fasteners were at least 3" into the wall  and into a joint... if the joint is really soft i'd drill it big and set the fastener in the hole with an expanding cement like "rock tite"  this will at least give you a lever effect...

        i fight this everyday setting new window & door units in very old all brick openings... a few mechanical fasteners  everything shimmed sq & plumb and expanding foam seem to do the trick... anything big and loadbearing i go all the way through the wall with a building star on the outside and bolted on the inside....

        pony

  6. stossel1 | Jan 17, 2004 10:03pm | #14

    I encountered a similar problem in my kitchen. After exposing the brick in my  I discovered it was very soft I think I heard the term "butterbrick" somewhere.  I drilled holes and set allthreads in with an epoxy, probably a little overkill but after 4 years the cabs. are still in place.

    1. mazbro | Jan 19, 2004 12:40am | #15

      Thanks for the info. Thats what I'm going to do also. Fools rush in as they say, whoever the 'H' is they.

      1. hasbeen | Jan 19, 2004 06:04am | #16

        In our area there are both soft frick buildings and lots of old adobe.  I haven't done it myself, but common local practice is to drill a hole the same size as a broom handle, tap in a chunk of said handle, and screw to it.  I've run into everything from picture hooks to cabinets hung this way.  Of course you could use dowel, but a couple of times I've pulled out an old plug and it still had some green paint on the outside.  Old locals told me "that's the way it's done". 

        Probably not the right thing for your application, but might come in handy for someone out there.  Adding glue couldn't hurt.Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.

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