I have an old ranch house with 2X6 ceiling joists. There is existing 1 1/2″ fiberglass insulation up there with the vapor barrier facing the occupied space below and a thin deteriorating paper facing the attic. To fill the bays I want to use R-13 kraft faced fiberglass (it is much less expensive than the unfaced, like 1/2). This will fill up the bays so next year when I can afford it, I will roll out some R-30 perpendicular to the joists. My question is to which side should I put the kraft paper; the attic or the occupied space. Thanks in advance for any advice.
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Heated space, to answer your question.
You should consider a better insulation though. You can blow your own cellulose, with a rented blower (or sometimes free with the material).
Ultimately that is what I would like to do, but my wife and I just bought the house and our budget is next to nothing. This amount of fiberglass will only cost about 40% of the cellulose ($200). I figure I wll save that much in oil so it becomes a wash. If we can afford the cellulose next year I could pull the fiberglass and use it to insulate the garage.
I understand about budgets, but here's another angle you might consider. Call a local insulating contractor for an estimate. They can provide and install for less than you can DIY in many cases. I think there are some tax credits for this as well, but don't know details.
I'm a little surprised at the disparity in pricing you mention. Is this from the big boxes?
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
Yes, the pricing is from the big boxes (Depot takes it). It was 200 to do the R-13 and 500 to do cellulose to R-30. Granted R-30 is better, but I can't swing it. I did some research on the tax credits and unfortunately (with hiring someone) the installation costs are not part of the tax credit. I am sure you could arrange something with the contractor to just invoice you the whole amount as material costs but i guess that would be on an individual basis.
With those numbers:200/13 = 15.28 per R
500/30 = 16.66 per RNot much difference. $17 dollars more for R13 in cellulose. If money is that tight, why not do the cellulose in 2 layers? You might have to rent the blower, but around here that $35/day. I plan to blow cellulose in our attic in the next couple weeks. Cellulose was cheaper here. There seems to be a really strong preference for cellulose on this forum and after seeing how poorly the FG was installed in my attic, I understand why.
That is a smart analysis of the situation. I totally understand the apprehension towards FG, simple mistakes and carelessness make it very ineffective. I am a LEED AP and an Architect and definately would do the the cellulose if I could (if I was rich I would spray the roof rafters with Agribalance from Demilac). I buy CF bulbs and Energy Star everything; but I guess I am going to stick with the plan of doing FG this year in the attic then recycling it next year for the Garage, and doing the attic right with the cellulose. It may seem backwards but it makes it affordable. Thanks for you input.
borrow the money from a friend and pay it back with the energy savings.-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
I agree with your take. You always do the best you can do for what you can afford. I over-insulated my first home with 1 inch fiberglass I got out of trash piles at metal building sites. 4 or 5 layers eventually. Installation really was terrible but it worked and was free.
But........what are the chances you'll crawl up there and pull the fiberglass out next year? We should start a pool. :-)
A frugal fannie like myself. I never buy anything full price and free is even better. A pool sounds like a great idea, but I wouldn't bet aginst me, I tend to finish all my projects, even it it does take twice as long. I'll put $100 on myself. Everyone has very valid points but you are the only one with me on this one. Thanks for the suport. Funny too, how all this started by asking which side to put the vapor barrier on.
So next year you can poorly insulate your garage?
Makes no sense to me.
How much are cells per bale at your local box?
How many do you have to buy before the machine is free?
Report back & we'll tell you how manage the cells instead of wasting your money on the FG.
Joe H
What you can afford is always better than what you can't. I would have preferred to blow cellulose in back then but couldn't afford it. I could afford free.
Excuse me but I am in the insulation business, and to be blunt, your numbers make absolutely no sense! AFIK currently about the cheapest R-13 can be bought retail is around .23 a sqft. So from this I infer that you have around 800 sqft to insulate. I will blow in cellulose to R-30 all day for .40 a sqft, often less depending on the situation. So, my charge would be around 320.00. You can get the machine and the cellulose from the big box and do it yourself for about the same price. If this is not true where you live it is a very strange place. Call an insulation contractor for a quote.
I am going to be mean here but if you cannot afford the extra 200.00 or less to do it right, you need to not do anything! Save that money for food, gas or a heavy winter coat. I scrape by myself most of the time also, but I will not throw my money away on a halfa**ed job when the money is that tight.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=126003.1
Griffin, Chime in on this one if you could.
$100 on an electric blanket would be a better investment than FG.
Joe H
Alright, because you guys will not let up: The R-13 cost me $211.39. It was 8.98 for a min-roll plus tax. The cellulose bails, of which I needed 44 (for R-30) cost 10.76 each. Thats $506.58 with tax. So My FG was less than half of the cellulose. I understand FG is not the best, but it is very effective if installed properly. I wasn't going for the best this year; but I am certain that my oil bill will be better off with it in the attic. And I don't think FG is "poor" insulation for a gargae; it is just a garage so I really don't need to go crazy with it.
I have been unemployed since mid August. In that time my refrigerator died, the stem on the main water valve for the house broke so I had to call a plumber for that, the septic tank needed to be pumped because it was backing up into the house, I had to bring my truck in for the check engine light, I had to bring my truck in again for the check engine light, and Id like to think that I could have some reserves to buy a "few" christmas presents and be able to hsot a nice Thanksgiving. So $200 bucks was my budget and I am happy with what I could do with it. All I really wanted advice on was where to put the kraft paper. If I wanted financial advice I would go to my advisor.
Mark my words; next year when I am employed and can afford to do things right I WILL pull out the FG and do the cellulose. I would need the FG for the Garage anyways so I think my solution was just fine.
we're riding you because you're probably throwing away $200 here.$200 worth of cellulose would do a better job than $200 of fiberglass, for one. then you just add more later.For two, you'd probably save the cost differential between the two methods *this year*. I'm guessing on that, having not done the math. But it's entirely possible.and fiberglass is poor insulation. it really is. common does not equal good.-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
I hear ya. I know Breaktime and FB are avenues for promoting best practices. Like I said though, money was tight, I thought i had a good idea (to reuse the FG next year) and do the cellulose right. In the end, the attic has the FG in it, my house is warm, quiet and cozy, and I WILL do the cellulose next year.
No need to pull out the fiberglass when you add cellulose. Just blow the cells right over it.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
my nephew in Malden overlaid his attic insulation with cellulose and a reversed leaf vac.... worked greatMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I tried that about 10 years ago in my MIL's attic and the leaf blower motor caught fire. Not the motor istelf but a fine layer of cellulose dust.in the impeller area. Couldn't get a proper blower on a weekend and wanted to get it done.
Peel the kraft paper off and throw it out. A little messy, but not so bad. When your budget is ready, you can add more insulation right over the R-13.
To answer your question, you should put a slit (with a sharp utility knife or razor box cutter) in the kraft facing of the existing insulation and the new stuff (but avoid cutting the vapor barrier, of course). Then I suppose I'd be tempted to put the kraft facing up vs down, just to reduce the amount of fiberglass one gets exposed to crawling around up there.