What’s the difference between Duroc, Wonderboard, and Hardibacker and what should I use as backer board for shower tile?
And, if you have the time, do I really need to use greenboard on the other walls in the bathroom or will regular drywall work ok? Any special considerations for insulation for sound deadening? Should I just use buy typical fiberglass insulation? Any particular R-value to look for?
Thanks all!
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Replies
Ken: Good questions all. While you're at it, ask if you need a vapor barrier behind your backer board.
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA
all bathrooms should a vapor barrier on the walls and ceilings. excellent for moisture, but then again the homes i build have a vapor barrier in the whole building,(r-2000).
There is no appreciable difference between the three products. They all perform the same. I happen to like Hardi a bit better, as in my opinion it is easier to saw (Wonderboard and Duroc, you score and snap)and I think Hardi is easier to nail. But on a shower wall, they will perform the same.
I would use greenboard if the bathroom is small and without a power vent. In a larger bathroom or one with a vent, regular drywall is fine.
Log on to whatever manufacuter's web site you select for your CBU. Follow those instructions, including blocking and taping schedules. Get the Tile Council's handbook on tile with a shower spec in it, and follow it. Also, Michael Byrnes book on showers and tile is excellent. Don't try doing this yourself unless you know what you are doing. A DIY'er can do a shower, but ya'all need to read up on it, OK.
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Boris, you are The Man--great tile advice. Read and re-read manufacturer's instructions for tile products. Read Michael's book at least 7 times before starting a shower. Plan one day for each step. If you finish a step before 5 PM you can use the rest of the day to make offerings to the God of Quality Tile Shower Jobs and then use the remaining time to read some more. Slow and steady wins the race.
One thing I will say about The Book is that the spec for embedding the backer board in the floor bed is not current. I believe the current recommendation is to do the floor first and set the wall backer on top of it with a silicone caulk joint between. TCA should have the best info.
Personally I like WONDERBOARD the most in wet areas.....this is a product you can actually even use outside.
Yes, its harder to cut but not that big of a deal if youre willing to spend quality time.
and yes...you need to put felt paper on the studs behind it cause it can absorb moisture although I havent seen evidence of this in all my years using it if your tile job is done properly.
I seem to always add in.......to use a liquid latex mortar additive rather than water to my thinset.
After many experiments with different thinset applications I found that to be the most rock solid.
Sometimes products that aren't as user friendly put people off........sometimes user friendly products make folks question why its so easy to cut and snap like Hardie, etc etc,,,my "gut" goes with Wonderboard with all its hassle....ohhhhh, and a mud job, rather than glue.
Be a wall/floor
andy
My life is my practice!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I have been using Denshield as a tile backer in shower/bath applications. It is easier to use, cut , attach than cbu products. You don't have to use plastic as a vapor barier, the tile side is water proof. It is warranteed for life as long as the installation follows the manufacturers instructions, which are attached to the sheets.
no matter the backer ... you should always use a vb.
I prefer felt.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
I prefer felt as well.....I know Denshield is guarenteed but something I like about Wonderboard..not really sure what. Thing is that you can even use it outside..maybe thats it.
Be a wall
andyMy life is my practice!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I hate to repeat myself (Oh, heck, no I don't) since I brought this up in another thread, but the current issue of FHB has an article on converting a tub to a shower. It is stated that a vapor barrier is NOT required behind cement backer board. There seems to be a difference of opinion here.
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA
Vb behind shower wall is cheap insurance. If water vapour or water does end up behind the cement board, it will drain back into the pan instead of between the wall.
That guy in FHB takes some cheap shortcuts. Example: He builds curbs out of CBU and then paints on a waterproofing. I use mud. I couldn't believe that he actually recommended not using a vb. Thats nuts and goes against the TCA rules. I use poly as a vb, cause I can see the studs when I nail the CBU.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Boris, would be be kind enough to go to 37977.10 and give me some pointers on the installation? Thanks in advance.
Done.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Try soaking a piece of Denshield in a bucket of water overnight. That stuff sucksand swells.
I've been reading and re-reading the FHB article for ideas, too.
Around the water supply pipes, he put insulation, but I was wondering if there is any concern about condensation from the pipes. My tub water supply lines are in the wall adjacent to the family room, so sound proofing is pretty important. Is there a better way?
Also, I've seen two different ways of doing bench seats in a shower (another project yet to come). One way is the metal bench that he did. It looks pretty simple to install, but I would think that it could cause difficulties in cleaning under the bench, perhaps hard-to-reach mold/fungus. The other way I've seen is to build the bench out of concrete blocks, filled in with mortar. Easier to clean, I'm sure, but maybe a bit more difficult to construct. Any thoughts there?
Oh, and as for the subject at hand, I got the Wonderboard and borrowed Byrnes book from the library. Tons of great info there (and here, of course).
Thanks guys.
Kev
Probably why I never trusted it for heavy water applications. My guess was that the only water proof area is the billionth of an inch on the front and I wonder how long that'd really last.
BE the test of time
andyMy life is my practice!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Yeah, it swells, but thats only because the core is absorbent. The waterproofing membrane on DensShield is on the surface. All nail holes are taped with a proprietory tape and mud.
Now, I won't use the stuff, 'cause, like you, I don't get it. Its not waterproof except on the surface, and one fills the thing with 20 holes or so. Yeah, their taped etc bla bla bla, but give me a 100% water impervious board.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Everyone else has pretty well covered the cement board, so I'll add my two cents on sheetrock. I use MR sheetrock in bathrooms all the time. The little additional cost is worth the piece of mind for the added water resistance in a damp environment. Don't use MR sheetrock on the ceiling unless its strapped or framed 12" on center or less, its not as stiff as regular rock and could bow. I don't see much differnce in the various cement boards- use whatever is available. Add the vapor barrier to any wall with insulation- more cheap insurance.
For wet areas definitely use a cb. I prefer Wonderboard.
MR drywall can be used everywhere else. As someone wrote, strap the ceilings 12" oc to comply with installation recommendations provided by the manufacturer. Or you can use regular drywall. Paint and ventilation should take care of potential vapor problems, but for a dollar more a sheet you can use MR and be done with it.
Use felt behind the CB. Between the studs and the CB.
Not to dis FHB, but articles show techniques, and some are "better" than others. Using felt costs pennies, takes minutes, and is a valid technique. It'll protect you from potential problems down the road, and should problems crop up, having felt ve not heving felt can protect you regarding the "workmanship" clause.
Boris speaks the truth when it comes to tiling. I don't think I've ever objected to any of his advice that I've read, and he's one of two tiling guys on this forum I'd turn to if I had a problem.
while we're talking bathrooms and moisture ....
There's one paint for kitchens .. and more importantly baths .. that I love.
PermaWhite.
Can be tinted any color.
Mold and mildew additives are mixed in .....
Goes on nice .... covers well ..... and fights the mold and mildew like no other.
It's the only paint I'll put in a bath.
And ... like Mongo .... I prefer felt over plastic ....
but at the minimum use plastic as a VB in the custom showers I do.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Is PermaWhite a company & product name? thanks John
It's the name printed on the can ...
not sure if it's a company or not ... but it's the name of their paint.
Comes in both latex and oil .....
one's kinda blueish label ... the other kinda pinkish .... both say PermaWhite nice and big. I think I got some at Sherwin Williams ... but I know I've picked some up at HD and Lowes.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
I recently wrote an article on this and figured I'd post it here.
Shower walls.
There has been much discussion in recent years about the best way to do a shower wall for a shower remodel or even a new custom home build. Many people and worse, many builders have simply been cutting corners and leaving too many Houston showers a dark moldy mess after 5-10 years. The code was simply inadequite and the result is many a shower needing some serious help. There are many things you can do to prevent this with your home remodelling project and I will go over some of the do's and don'ts. For years the method of choice by contractors and builders alike was a full mud wall. A greenboard (moisture resistant drywall, though these days the good stuff is purple or yellow) base covered with an asphalt paper topped with mesh. In practice however, the greenboard just proved to be insufficent, and is typically avoided by competent bathroom remodelers. The mesh is then ready for a hot mud concrete mixture to be applied, creating a very nice smooth surface that is second to none. The tile is then applied after the wall has fully cured. Waiting for it to fully cure can prove to be very important down the road. There are a couple of problems with stoping at this as many builders did. First its not water proof, and that's pretty much a killer. Second, behind your non water proof wall you have a green board that has an organic or mold-possible if not mold friendly paper wrapping. A modern and reliable version of this install uses a next generation mold free panel and a waterproof membrane such as RedGuard or Kerdi. Waterproof membranes are great products and only add a few hundred dollars to most shower projects. Typically this method is avoided however, due to cost. The exception to this is the cases of polished marble, granite, glass and other hard edge small grout line circumstances. Occasionally, a contractor will request this due to the tile being used, or perhaps the shape of the shower. The majority of the reason contractors and savy homeowners have gone away from this is the avalibility of cement board. Cement board such as Hardi-backer, Wonderboard, and Durock allow for a faster, less expensive wall that works great when properly installed. A cement board wall that when paired with the right materials will stand the test of time. The best installation begins with a layer of asphalt paper or roofing felt over the studs, properly installed from the floor up so the seams run down hill. This forms the vapor barrier and while some contractors think it is unneccesary it is an extremely cheap "insurance" that is more than worth the few dollars for a roll of felt. I use a vapor barrier in every shower I build, I prefer roofing felt, though some contractors use plastic. The walls are now ready for the cement board, a wise contractor will mark all plumbing and studs on the paper for worry free installation. The material should be measured and installed with care to limit the size of gaps and buckling of the edges when it is attached. After the hardi-backer (Hardi is the most common, though Wonderboard is preferred in outdoor locations such as pool/ocean rinse off showers) is up it needs fiberglass mesh joint tape applied to all the seams and then it is ready for floating. Floating all the seams with thinset and really taking the time to get a good fit on your pieces creates a smooth, workable surface that you will appreciate after the tile is laid. Even though the surface is smooth and looks tile ready, it's still not waterproof and will need 2 coats of a waterproof membrane rolled on. Don't worry it dries fast and shouldn't take too long, but you'll appreciate the protection for years down the road. After the membrane dries you have an affordable, waterproof, smooth surface and your vision is ready to take shape. It should also be noted that when this shower system is used in conjunction with a custom shower pan the pan liner is installed on top of the asphalt but underneath the hardi. The corners of the liner will need to be trimmed and glued with shower pan liner adhesive in some cases to ensure a flat final surface. This area might also require extra attention when floating the seams, and smoothing the surface with thin-set. If you are using an exisiting shower pan, or prefer to pour the pan first you will need to silicone the joint between the shower walls and shower pan. If the pan is poured inside the shower walls you may still want to seal the joints. The shower will look beautiful after tile and grout, however it is not quite ready for use. You will need to seal the corners and floor before use. This sealant will last a few years and will need to be replaced due to peeling or cracking. Many of the new colored tile caulks won't peel, however they will still crack over time. Many of the new shower silicones will not mold or mildew from bacteria as they include microban or another anti-bacteria agent. Silicone will peel over time however and will need to be reapplied every few years. If you have used a natural stone tile on the walls be sure to reseal the tile every couple years as well. I hope this helps you with your custom shower remodel project. With proper installation and a little bit of upkeep over the years you will have a shower to that gives you the luxury and relaxtation of the best resorts in the comfort of your own home. A well designed bathroom is a relaxing retreat you'll be happy to spend time in. If you have any questions please feel free to contact me, and good luck to you on achieving your little slice of paradise.
Robert Griffin, owner
Katy Custom Kitchen and Bath
http://www.katycustom.com
If this is an article............
then where's the paragraphs or line breaks of some sort?
If you're going to go to the trouble of writing something, why not make it reader friendly?
And if your intent is advertising (which it apparently is), go somewhere else.
He's actually answered other posts - I think this one is OK.
... but he does need to edit the post for readability!
Ok ok so it needs some editing. Im going to use it as a blog post and yes it will be linked to my website once I'm done. I'm actually writing a series of articles on proper shower construction and other things related to kitchen and bath construction. Sorry the readability wasn't there, it's still rough and hadn't been edited when I posted it. I just saw the thread and thought It might help someone. If your worst comment is my lack of paragraphs, I guess I can take that. I do feel like the information contained in the post is accurate, informative and useful. I hope it helps someone, as far as advertising. I certainly sign my posts with my website as many others do, but do you really think someone from the fine homebuilding forums is going to call me for a shower because of that? Pretty unlikely seeing as how I service a 40 mile radius or so. Anyway hope it helps someone.
Robert Griffin, Owner
Katy Custom Kitchen and Bath
http://www.katycustom.com/
Robert.
Paragraph breaks really help a reader get through a long post. It'd be a shame to lose interest b/4 getting finished reading.
If you're going to be posting here (or on your blog) at least learn to use the Enter key. Even your response is one run-on paragraph.
Hey Dan, thought you might enjoy this. Check it out.
http://www.englishforums.com/
Robert Griffin, Owner
Katy Custom Kitchen and Bath
http://www.katycustom.com