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Discussion Forum

backerboard over lino

SwissGuy | Posted in Construction Techniques on February 2, 2005 06:20am

I need some advice from all of you tile setters out there. <!—-><!—->

Here’s the situation I have:  I’m planning on tiling a large kitchen with adjoining hall with 12×12 porcelain tile.  Current flooring surface is 3/4″ plywood subfloor, one layer of lino over that and then a layer of 12×12 lino tiles over that.  The lino tiles are in pretty good shape (none popping loose).  I’d like to lay down 1/4″ hardibacker and then tile on top of that.  Given that I have enough clearance (dishwasher, doors, etc) and I really don’t enjoy tearing off layers of lino, is it safe to just lay the backerboard over the lino?  I’ve also heard of two schools of thought, with regard to needing thinset under the backerboard.  I’ve also heard differing opinions of what type of fastener (galv roofing nails or galv drywall screws). One more tidbit.  I’m also planning on screwing down the subfloor (either through the lino or directly) to the joists before I install the backerboard just to insure that the subfloor is as solid as possible.<!—->

So here are the questions:<!—->

How do I prep the lino?  Do I sand it lightly or tear it off?  <!—->

Is thinset under the backerboard necessary?<!—->

What type of fastener is best?<!—->

Is it necessary to leave expansion joints between the sheets of backerboard (the kitchen is roughly 14 x 25)? <!—->

If I decide to go the route of tearing off the lino, do I have to get it down to bare subfloor or can I leave some shreds still stuck? <!—->

Also is it necessariy to tape/mud the joints with thinset?  If so, is fiberglass mesh drywall tape adequate?<!—->

Thanks in advance!<!—->

Marcus <!—->

 <!—->

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Replies

  1. timkline | Feb 02, 2005 06:56am | #1

    This subject has come up before.

    You will find that many will tell you it is ok to go over the linoleum (sheet vinyl ?) as long as you thinset under the board.

    I have done several inspections for various insurance companies to determine the cause of cracking tiles which were installed over vinyl floors. They were installed in the same manner you describe.  Ultimately, the floors were ripped out entirely.

    The Tile Council of America does not recommend this.

    Best of luck in your decision.

     

    carpenter in transition

    1. User avater
      JeffBuck | Feb 02, 2005 07:59am | #4

      " the linoleum (sheet vinyl ?)"

       

      there's the difference .... is it sheet vinyl ...

      or true linoleum.

      most backer board is warrantied over lino ...

      none that I know of are warrantied over cushion backed vinyl.(the typical sheet vinyl around here in residential const)

       

      Jeff

         Buck Construction 

         Artistry in Carpentry

              Pgh, PA

  2. FastEddie1 | Feb 02, 2005 06:56am | #2

    Here's my opinions ... it works for me.  It would be best to remove thew old lino, but you can get by with leaving it in place.  How old is it?  Any chance it might contain asbestos?  If so, you're beter off leaving it in place.

    I always use a thin layer of too-wet thinset under the hardieboard.  It helps to fill any voids.  Mix it a bit wet and spread it with a small notch trowel.  You want it thin enough so it will easily squeeze out.

    Use the cement board screws.  They have two advantages:  little nibs under the head that help to self-countersink, and square drives that take the torque much better than phillips heads.  Also, if you don't already have one, include the coat of a cordless impact driver in the project budget.  It really drives the screws easily.

    I think you're supposed to leave a small gap between boards, but then the instructions say to fill the gaps with thinset and use mesh tape, just like sheetrock joints.  So, if you leave a gap for expansion, then fill it with a cement product, how is it supposed to allow for expansion?  I butt the panels naturally-tight (I push them together, but if there's a little gap I don't try to close it).

    Do you have a wet saw for cutting the tiles?

    There is a very good tile forum at johnbridge.com

     

    I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.

  3. myhomereno | Feb 02, 2005 06:59am | #3

    I have done the following before and I still looks after 9 years of use:
    1. screw your sub floor to the floor joist every 12"
    2. degrease your vinyl with TSP and following with methylhydrate
    3. install concrete/-wonderboard using plenty of construction adhesive and galvanized deck screws hitting the floor joist and the plywood sub floor
    4. install wonderboard without exp. joints and cover joints with thinset and meshtape.
    Overall it is time consuming when you screw down everything, but your floor gets more stable and you wont have any tile or groutcracking.
    I did not remove my old lino floor because it contains asbestos(most of the do if they are manufactured before the early 1980's.

  4. billyg | Feb 02, 2005 08:31am | #5

    Don't go over the linoleum.  Tear it up and do it right.  Also, you need to make sure that your floor joists meet the deflection requirements for tile or stone.  And you probably should add another 1/2" plywood over your subfloor before adding the 1/4 inch backerboard (don't use 1/4 inch ply).

    Yes, you do need thinset under the backerboard, and no don't use drywall tape on the seams.

    I agree that you should check out http://www.johnbridge.com

    Billy

    1. SwissGuy | Feb 02, 2005 05:09pm | #6

      Thanks for the advice guys, yes it's sheet vinyl not lino.  Looks like I'm going to be tearing out the vinyl...any advice on the tear out?  In the past, I've just used a floor scraper and plenty of muscle. Any other suggestions that make that job a little less painful?  Also, do I have to remove all of the little paper? scraps that  seem to adhere to the floor whenever you remove sheet vinyl before laying down the thinset.

      1. FastEddie1 | Feb 02, 2005 05:29pm | #7

        Tear off as much of the vinyl wear surface as possible ... most of it will come off without much trouble.  Get it wet and the rest of the paper will come off very easily.

         I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.

    2. Scooter1 | Feb 02, 2005 08:38pm | #8

      Glad to see we have a consensus here. Not!Most professionals will tell you to take out the vinyl. Sorry.My answer to you would depend on how long you want to stay in the home, and what kind of tile or stone you are installing. I think I'd be inclined to tile over it with UNMODIFIED thinset under the backerboard. Do not, repeat do not, use construction adhesive nor nails to the joists. You honestly want that CBU layer to "float" above the joists, because it will move in different ways than the floor joists will. To avoid cracking, tape and mud the CBU joints as you go so there are no speed bumps. Consider using a thin membrane over the CBU to further isolate movement issues, like a PVC or NobelCS. I probably wouldn't remove the vinyl.Regards,
      Boris"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934

      1. User avater
        JeffBuck | Feb 02, 2005 11:47pm | #9

        "I probably wouldn't remove the vinyl."

         

        Your own house or on a warrentied job?

        Jeff  Buck Construction 

           Artistry in Carpentry

                Pgh, PA

        1. Scooter1 | Feb 03, 2005 01:53am | #11

          Jeff, with backboard over sheet vinyl vct, the substrate is pretty stiff, and there is not a lot of compression. My opinion would change if it were the cushioned type of vct. So compression and movement is not an issue, do you agree?Next is bonding. Since the CBU does not have to be bonded to the vct, that isn't an issue either. The thinset (UNMODIFIED) will cushion the CBU and does not have to be bonded either. The CBU is nailed to the ply, not the joists.What other issue is there that I am missing? If this were stone, I would remove the vct but I guess this is just dumb tile.Regards,
          Boris"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934

      2. User avater
        JeffBuck | Feb 03, 2005 05:08am | #13

        I agree ...

        that said ....

        I'd not risk it for a customer.

        I don't take risks just because a customer wants to save a few bucks on demo.

         

        my own house ... sure ... if I knew it wasn't compressing ... I'd tile right over it.

        as a matter a fact ... about 20 years ago we tile w/no backer ... just unmodified thinset ... and layed ceramic right over a true lino floor .. the entry hall ... in my parents house. Still there today ... not even a hair line crack in the grout.

        Jeff  Buck Construction 

           Artistry in Carpentry

                Pgh, PA

  5. fingers | Feb 03, 2005 01:53am | #10

    I'll jump in here even tho' I'm no tile expert, but I do have a good friend who does it full time.  He says it doesn't matter much what you put the tile over as long as it's solid, stiff, and doesn't deflect.

    Having said that, I'd first make sure your floor system doesn't deflect much. ( You can use the 1/360 th formula.)

    Then maybe make sure the resiliency of the vinyl isn't so much as to allow the tiles to pop off.  How much is that actually? I don't know, but I suppose the optimal situation would be if the vinyl is old (i.e. not very spongy or springy) and the cement board over it is on the thicker side rather that the thinner side to better distribute a point load.

    1. FastEddie1 | Feb 03, 2005 04:30am | #12

      Actually Mr Fingers, the formula is L/360 but in lower case the L looks like a 1.  And L/360 would be marginal ... L/480 is better, and if it's stone the deflection needs to be even less.  And you're right ... resistance to deflection is very important.

       I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.

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