Backfeeding Generators into Panels
Here in the Southeast the battle is raging over backfeeding
a panel with a generator. While most know it is against the NEC without a transfer panel, some transfer panels do not disconnect the Neutral wire. So it stands to reason if you install a double 20 amp breaker, run the wire to the 240 plug on the generator, turn the main off, turn all the breakers off, and then just turn on what the generator can handle you are making your own transfer switch, which is safe if you turn that 20 amp breaker off before you turn the main back on. I have always been interested in the theory of the flow of electricity. I see no danger in doing this as long as you follow the proceedure. Liscenced electricians are showing their close friends how to do this . Does anyone have any input on this??
Replies
It is safe IF installed CORRECTLY.
That means an interlock between the 2 sets of breakers so that only one can be on at a time.
Some of the panel/breaker manufactors sell them.
But I bet you are not talking about using one.
Otherwise NO, NO, NO, NO.
WAY TO EASY TO SCREW IT UP AND KILL SOMEONE.
Grandma or the teenager down the street is baby sitting and the lights go out. The kids say that daddy just starts the generator in the garage and then flips some switches.
They go to the panel and read the instructions that you have posted there. But they miss ONE STEP.
Or power is out and you are running on the generator.
You wake up at 3 am cold (in my area) or hot when the fan stops running because the generator ran out of gas. You are still 3/4 asleep and try to figure out why and flip the main on. Still goes not work, but you say that you will figure it out in the moring.
In the mornign you realize that the generator is out of gas and refill and start it. But the main is still on.
......Amen"
Or when you forget to turn off the main and backfeed to the pole. The poor guy working on the pole to fix the original problem does not expect you to be backfeeding electricity....
A number of practicalities that have nothing to do with code are embedded in your querry, most already answered, but will add a few tidbits.
1. Unless you have a 50 kW or so generator, iy you try to start it with your breakers closed it will stall out trying to start 50 refrigerators, water heaters, etc. in a 5 block area!
2. Transfer switches have to be a 'foolproof' lockout. If you want to do what you describe, you need to make y0ur setup foolproff also. The simplest way is to tie the your critical outlets to simple 3 way switches (like fridge, freezer, some lights, TV/radio, computer, furnace) with the center leg to the appliance outlet, one leg to the gen breaker and the other to the panel breaker.
3. Here is my setup. 200 A sq D panel with 200 A main breaker, breaker has a padlock hole next to it. Built up some brackets so that to get the key out of a slot the main breaker has to be turned off, that is the generator key. Also, before the key can get over a foot away, a lock tab (old car door lock, same key for gen start) needs to be in the hole to lock the 200A breaker off. Now you can take the key to go start the generator. Gen has to be turned off (old steering column lock mechanism) to get the key back out to go unlock the lock on the 200 A breaker, key has to be back in its slot to be able to flip the main breaker back on. (due to liability issues, dont ask for detail plans, etc. ) Could be defeated (one can defeat any transfer switch with jumper cables) with duplicate key, but that is kept separately. Edit-forgot one point, the gen is not hard wired in, it gets plugged in with a double male cord that is also kept separately up high away from little hands with another car door lock, it need to get plugged in also before the house can get fed.
Edited 7/12/2005 12:56 pm ET by JUNKHOUND
This improper connection of generators is one of the most serious violations of the Code. Basically, it is nothing less than attempted murder. And sometimes, it is murder as in the case of the lineman in Young Harris, GA following hurricane Ivan.
Here is one of the statements: "If you could somehow rig a reasonably reliable lockout then it should be OK " Notice that he refers to "reasonably reliable". This is a matter of life and death and is not good enough.
There are all kinds of clever schemes to somehow avoid the cost of doing things right. If you can afford a generator, then you can afford a transfer switch. Or you could use extension cords to run selected appliances.
The double ended male extension cord is illegal, wrong and dangerous. What if the non-generator end becomes unplugged. Then the male prongs are live. Shame on you.
One other thing. What happens when the utility turns the power back on and your puny generator is working out of phase with the utility's big generators. Who's gonna win.
~Peter
I may have been the person who said "reasonably reliable", and I said that because that's as good as the UL-listed units seem to be. Eg, the interlock levers on one unit I saw were quite flimsy and could easily be bent or pried loose by a determined individual, probably using no more than finger power.
I never advocated backfeeding, just giving some practicalities for most neighborhoods, agree it is a bad practice.
BTW: Which NEC paragraph (or local law) says double male cords are 'illegal'?? Last I saw, NEC does not cover cords, but then the latest hard copy I've read thru completely was the 1980 issue.
BTW2: The 'crazy guy' (not me) in a machines class in school in the early '60s wanted to see what a 50 KVA 3 phase gen did if hooked up when the sync lights were at their brightest. Driven by 100 HP DC motor, 3 phase back into 400 A 3 phase service to the lab. When he closed the switch, 2 of the 4ea 3/4 bolts holding down the DC motor broke before the breaker tripped, plus damaging the coupling.
Dad did mention there was some damage to the generator at the paper mill powerplant after the unsynchronized matchup. Guy pretty much crapped his drawers when he threw the switch.
We used to do that, but they where only about 3-5 hp machines.And slow worked the way in brightness. Don't remember how far we got.
In the 99 Code, it is 410-56 (g). [Later versions may have changed the numbering.]"Attachment plugs shall be installed so tht their prongs, blades, or pins are not energized unless inserted into an energized receptacle. No receptacle shall be installed so as to require an energized attachment plug as its source of supply."
The Code making panel doesn't write very well.
~Peter
Junk hound that is the best answer I have received yet, all I have to do is buy a junkyard so I can get the parts. This whole think started when I originally said their was a discussion about the neutral wire not being broken with transfer switches. I know that replies from electricians about backfeeding without a transfer switch is true. One reply about if you can afford a generator you can afford a transfer switch is just not credible. Transfer switches are three hundred here and the fee to install has doubled {free enterprise system}Their are people living here that live off dirt roads with people on life saving equipment that run on electricity. One of these individuals has a good friend that has back fed his panel for him because he is smart enough to
Turn off the main
Turn off all breakers except, refrig,kitchen lights, and bedroom circuits.
Lock the door on the panel and hang the key on the generator
Start the generator
And for all the replies I have gotten from people who I guess have never done anything contrary to the code I told him go for it. Oh, one other thing even though he lives in the boonies ,15 acres when I was asked if I would do it under those circumstances I said yes and by the way pull the meter and make sure but make sure you do not interrupt the wire to the grounding rod. Your turn guys.
Public utilities in most areas of the country have priority needs circuits identified for first responce durring service interruption.
I work for a public utility.
We know who and where life support customers are located and how fast we must respond. In the event we can't restore power, the proper emergency authorities are notified, and the customer is taken to a medical facility for interim care.
Not registering as a "life support " power user is just plain not smart.
Haywiring a genset to a panel for that rational is also not smart. If it is that critcal, the utility company will arrange for the genset installation and provide financing through the proper public asssitance program.
BTW, I lost a co-worker about 10 years ago to a haywired genset on a private business. A few thousand dollars worth of frozen food cost a family thier father/husband/son.
dave
"BTW, I lost a co-worker about 10 years ago to a haywired genset on a private business. A few thousand dollars worth of frozen food cost a family thier father/husband/son."Your co-worker should have been more friggin' careful. People depend on their electricity. Sometimes they make 'arrangements' for when the 'official' power is off...to protect their assets, their business, their home, their family. Sorry he died. But a $14 voltage detector would have saved his life, No? He was the electric pro--Who was really at fault?
Re: "Who was really at fault?"The idiot who connected the generator in violation of the law, code, terms of use for utility power, common sense and in willful disregard of the lives and safety of the surrounding community is entirely at fault. It wasn't just the linemen at risk. Lines are down and anyone connected to or in proximity to those lines is put at risk by the arrogant and self-centered misuse of a generator.They want to "protect their assets, their business, their home, their family" they can hook it up by way of a proper transfer switch or, still easier, extension cords.Simply put there is no acceptable excuse or way of justifying the incorrect use of a generator. Anyone who doesn't know what to do, how to properly connect one or are unwilling to do it right needs to do without. Your willing to justify and excuse what amounts to murder. Speaks volumes. Thanks for sharing that portion of your personality and system of ethics with us.
Who's the bigger idiot? The ignorant homeowner w/ the generator who doesn't even pretend to be a hack-electrician, or the professional lineman who damn sure knows better than to ASSUME a line is dead. Hell, I double check my circuits w/ a voltage detector even when I KNOW I'M the one who turned off the breaker.The average joe who buys a generac @ HD doesn't have a clue what the "law, code, terms of use for utility power" has to say about his new back-up box. And he probably lacks common sense as well. Had you your druthers, you might outlaw the sale of generators and romex to the unwashed masses, but you don't, and that ain't the way it is. Again, the PROfessional lineman was cavalier w/ his life. He knew better. The HO didn't. The electrician, therefore was the bigger fool.As far as your accusation that I've "excused" and "justified" the careless work-related death of a lineman..and that "amounts to murder"...Please. It's laughable.I can assure you my 'system of ethics' is consistant--and defendable-- and, were it on trial, I could make yours look like the ####'in rebuttal. Jackazz.
In your holier-than-thou blather did it not cross your mind that generators both run and do not run. Can be connected and disconnected. That this can happen after a line is checked or, your gold standard "double checked". That generators run out of gas, stop and are restarted. That the lineman is working, often in awful conditions, to get the selfsame HO power ASAP and the HO working against his own interests by messing with something he is ignorant about. By your "consistant--and defendable" ethics it is the victim of shooting caused by a gun being operated by an incompetent that is to blame, for not wearing their body armor. For not driving a tank. For not armoring their home. Your claiming ignorance and lack of judgment, as with a child, is a defence. You have no defence.You are also claiming an equivalency between the willful ignorance and purposefully dangerous operation of a generator with the accidental, by misoperation, environmental or material fault, of a lineman. The lineman is working as safely and carefully as possible given the need for speed while the ignorant HO is recklessly and carelessly operating his new toy. And of course those lines are not limited to linemen. Everyone connected to that line, possibly for blocks around, is exposed to the same risk. So by your logic Ma Kettle four doors down should carry a Wiggy? That she "knows better than to ASSUME a line is dead". Under pain of death? Get real.As for you claim :"Had you your druthers, you might outlaw the sale of generators and romex to the unwashed masses". Nothing so drastic. How about simply demanding they read the manual. Most don't. Every manual I have seen, I must have reviewed a dozen or so, have the same warning along the lines of: 'Don't connect the generator to household wiring without using a transfer switch installed by a qualified electrician.In a free society we have access, for the time being but increasingly rarely under the present paranoia, to many dangerous things. Chemicals, poisons, guns, vehicles and machinery. In only a few limited cases is any registration or proof of competency required. It is assumed that as adults we know our capabilities and operate within them. When we use these things and, because of our malpractice, someone is hurt it is the operator of the machinery that is blamed. I guess where you live if someone drives their car into your house they sue you for putting your house there. How dare you locate your house where people might want to drive.Anyone unwilling to comply with common sense rules for operating a generator, or any other machinery, should avoid owning or operating one. Let the meat rot. Hire a driver. Telephone book is full of people who will step in and provide skilled help in virtually any area. Most HOs who screw up generator connections are just too cheap to hire a professional.Re: ..."I could make yours look like the ####'in rebuttal." And yet you have so clearly failed to do so. You have clearly failed to support, much less prove, your point.
Thanks for the rebuttal to that ignorant post.
Anyone that thinks they can take their "voltage tester" and use it on a high voltage distribution line won't be in the gene pool very long, and dosen't know jack about transmission and distribution of electrical power.
OSHA and the NEC define low voltage as less than 600 volt. Most multimeters are rated to 600 volt or less. Attempting to check higher voltage with one will get him just as dead or injured as using no meter at all.
The man that was killed (murdered) was repairing multiple spans of downed line. The central load dispatcher had locked out that circuit and the enclosures/lockouts were open on the upstream feed. They had spliced and rehung 8 separate spans on that circuit from 1:00am to 2:00pm that morning. The next down and broken span was on the ground just before a bank of transformers in front of a couple of small businesses. Splices are much easier to make on the ground than from 30' in the air, out of a bucket truck. He grabbed the down line to drag it out of a ditch and make the splice. His fellow crewmen nor the EMTs could not resuscitate him.
If some hack, 2 wire, DIY "electrician" wants to blame the death of a journeyman lineman on his him, he is just proving how ignorant he really is.
Apparently the business owners attorney and the insurance companies were not as good as menken. The settlement was huge, but it in no way made up for the loss to his family.
Dave
It's quite possible that I have no clue what I'm talking about & I would install the proper disconnect switch if I were putting a generator on anyway, but I believe the linemen stand in insullated buckets & they work on live lines all the time (my neighbor just had her electricity connected today & they tied her into the same transformer that supplies my house w/o shutting off the juice. I guess there is the possibility that they could touch 2 lines at once while under the assumption that the lines are dead though...
How does this work in terms of people with wind/solar power. I've heard of people who get reimbursed from the power company when they produce more power than they use - maybe that's an urban legend, or else it could be a different issue because they produce constant power whereas a generator could be off when the lineman tests it & then turned on while he's working...
Wind/solar power systems that "backfeed" the grid must be equipped with a circuit that automaticaally disconnects the wind/solar system from the grid when the grid is down.
"but I believe the linemen stand in insullated buckets & they work on live lines all the time (my neighbor just had her electricity connected today & they tied her into the same transformer that supplies my house w/o shutting off the juice."That is true, but those connections are done in a controlled enviroment with zero or verly low power load on what they are connecting. And they are working with relatively low voltages (240) although they are near the high tension distribution line.Much different then a 7000 volt line where the pole is down and cable broken so that both ends are on the ground. And there are huge currents that are normally flowing in that line. And you don't know that there is not another dead short in the line a block away. If that line was tried to be connected hot you could end up with a large fireball.There was a recent thread about solar power.I am not familar with it, but CAP has installed some.There are 2 types of systems. The most common does not have storage and the inverters only run when they are connected to the grid and when they are getting sun. So they are strictly suppliment and not replacement.Then there are the offgrid systems that have batteries. More exensive becaue of the batteries and controls, but no connection to the grid.When a system with batteries are connected to the grid then it needs expensive isolation and protection controls.
Some work is done on live high voltage lines. It requires being supported by something that is well enough insulated that you can bond onto the line, and simply be at the same voltage as the line over your whole body. It's just like when a bird sits on a HV line. The entire bird is at the same voltage, however many thousands that may be, so no current flows through it.
The ultimate version of this is the use of helicopters on the really big stuff, like 345 kV and up. They wear Faraday suits to short out any small gradients, and make their first and last contact with the line using a long wand. The guys who do this report getting a sort of "crawly ants" feeling on their faces if they forget the hood on the Farady suit. TLC or Discovery had a show about them.
As for the backfeeding issue, I have to agree with 4lorn1 and the people who write the codes.
-- J.S.
I saw that show; fascinating. Made that month's satellite bill worth it.
You're flying off the handle now, Lorn...People getting killed through someone else's ignorance, or even gross negligence, is not "murder". Not by anyone's definition of the word. You are using the wrong term, 'murder', to enflame and to make your argument.But you're still wrong. WHY NOT use a voltage detector? Lineman are in a dangerous profession and have the burden of being safe on themselves (as THEY will suffer the consequences).MY POINT IS (and it's self-proving): people get killed everyday in their line of work--and usually by someone's negligence (their own or others'). But it ain't murder, chief. Being "too cheap to hire a professional" might be careless, it might be stupid, it might be illegal, even! But it doesn't make one a murderer. If you don't know why that is, ask me nicely and I'll take the time to explain it to you.
In most states it would classify as "manslaughter", or negligent homicide.
Manslaughter, yup.
One problem here, I bet, is that 99.9% of people doing this think they're just exposing linemen to getting shocked by 120V/240V power. "Dangerous, maybe, but hey, I got zapped a few times as a kid and I'm still here, right?".
No one thinks that they may be feeding what in effect becomes a step-up transformer, and they're supplying lethal ~12KV to unsuspecting line crews.
So did the restaurant owner go to jail? He should have; this was not a freak accident, but manslaughter caused by the owner's illegal gross negligence. I compare this to the case in an Oregon coastal town as few years ago, where a business owner installed a waste oil furnace. No permits; no inspections; not to Code. A resulting fire cost a firefighter his life. The bozo business owner went to jail for his death.
I think an effective way to stop this practice, is prosecution for any injuries or deaths caused, and the resultant publicity. In my opinion, "but ignorant folks need their jiuce" is not justification for this. As another poster stated, anyone needing constant power for life support purposes can get public assistance to help pay for a legal setup, if they can't afford it. The only way a "procedural lockout" may be proper is if you have a qualified person (electrician) camped out at your house, waiting for the storm to hit.
Why would an xfer switch need to switch the neutral? It's grounded, in several places.
"But you're still wrong. WHY NOT use a voltage detector? Lineman are in a dangerous profession and have the burden of being safe on themselves"
So suppose the lineman DO use a voltage detector (one that can handle > 1000 Volts). They test the line & it checks out so they begin working & then some dude flips on his generator & ZAP!!
In back feeding your connected panel, the 120/240 volts goes back to the pole and the transformer. The transformer operates in reverse and changes the 240 volts into maybe 4000 volts or 7000 volts or whatever depending on the transformer's ratio [albeit at small amps -- however small amps, ~50 milliamps, can and do kill].
Manslaughter is 3rd degree murder, so the general term "murder" still applies.
~Peter
Like the poster called "Johnny" said - A homeowner can turn on a generator any second. Ther's no way you could EVER ne assured that a dead line would STAY dead.So take your head out of your a$$ and think for a minute, would you?
I admire men of character, and I judge character not by how men deal with their superiors, but mostly how they deal with their subordinates, and that, to me, is where you find out what the character of a man is [Gen. Norman Schwartzkopf]
Yo Boss, the argument was whether or not it was murder when a lineman dies through the negligence of a HO. It's not. Manslaughter is not murder. Apparently still, no one knows the difference. Murder must have intent, and, I would add, malice.
A voltage detector would save many a lineman's life. Not always, but neither do seatbelts always save a life..No excuse then not to use them.
Btw, Boss, ya ever drive w/ just a little buzz on? A beer or two? Cold medicine? Ever been a little too tired to safely drive? If ya then caused a crash and someone died, are you a murderer? By your reasoning here, you ARE.
" ya ever drive w/ just a little buzz on? A beer or two? Cold medicine? Ever been a little too tired to safely drive? If ya then caused a crash and someone died, are you a murderer? By your reasoning here, you ARE."
Yes, you are a murderer if you drive under the influence and somebody dies as a result. If you show blatant disregard for human life, malice can be inferred and you can even be charged with first degree murder.
Another person who bandies about the word murder. Neither do you know what murder is, Aimless.A blatant disregard for human life? You mean what your politicians and armed government agents (cops) do each and every day, here in this country and abroad? Isn't GW a murderer? If not, why not?Nevertheless, I know you've driven a car impaired. Either through intoxicants, or by just being tired. You better hope and pray you never cause an accident--and a death--and have to be judged by people who think like you.
I'm curious as to what authority/experience you claim for dicussing such legal issues and definitions.While manslaughter can be said to be distinguished from murder on the intent issue, in some states "wanton disregard" can be a form of implied intent, which could convert an otherwise non-intended "manslaughter" into a "murder." If I recall, "wanton disregard" is a question of fact for the jury, but perhaps it is a question of law for the judge.Each state has evolved it's own standards, definitions and criteria, and in such an area (although my experience with crim law was pretty limited) it is my belief that such precise definions anjd pronouncments cannot be applied to all cases everywhere.
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Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Well, why don't you continue this conversation here instead of on the Iran thread. (Though they're connected, even if you can't see it.)Anyway, my telling you what "authority" I appeal to in making legal judgements would no doubt have any effect on your "belief that such precise definions anjd pronouncments cannot be applied to all cases everywhere." You will believe this no matter what I think or say, no?So, then, your curiosity is vanity.
>>Anyway, my telling you what "authority" I appeal to in making legal judgements would no doubt have any effect on your "belief that such precise definitions and pronouncements cannot be applied to all cases everywhere." You will believe this no matter what I think or say, no?
>>So, then, your curiosity is vanity.Nope, I'm just curious. There is no such direct connection between the question and my stated opinion.I get the impression that you did some quick dictionary study on the words, but I could well be wrong.This is basically a construction forum. When a specific trade is being discussed, the opinions and experiences of those who work in that particular trade generally carry more weight than other opinions.The same principle applies when military issues are being discussed, amd legal issues, etc.
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Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
I know quite well how forums work, Bob. This aint my first rodeo.My opinion in this matter carries no more or no less weight than anyone else's here, regardless of my credentials. It wasn't a legal issue, it was a moral one. People calling others 'murderers' when they're not, and not calling others 'murderers' when in fact they are, suffer from an ethical dilema. And I believe in objective morality. Therefore, I actually made a statement of fact. And if it really matters to you, no, I did no "quick dictionary study". I don't have time for that, really. My assertions about the term murder are really just common, straightforward interpretations of a word which traces its meaning all the way back to..well, the garden of Eden.If you deny what I said the word murder means (i.e., 'intent' and 'malice'), by all means, let's hear your evidence to the contrary. Your opinion don't mean diddly on this one, bro.
Re: "I know quite well how forums work, Bob. This aint my first rodeo."Well of course it isn't. Else you wouldn't even know about focusing on the slimmest of points and useless semantic distinctions to distract away from your so clearly losing the original argument. The wisdom and practicality of back feeding a generator into a panel. Simply put you were, are and remain wrong on the original point.Spinning like a Republican caught revealing the identity of a CIA agent, or dodging service in Vietnam, take your choice, isn't doing you much good. Figured I'd clue you in in case you had deluded yourself otherwise.The other point is that it always pays to know the players. Mr.Walker hasn't forgotten the original point. If this follows the normal course of events he will wear you down on the distractions, sideshows, you offer and drop your original error on you when your sure everyone has forgotten. Like him or not he doesn't forget much and his patience is about as legendary round these parts as it gets on an open, used to be more open, forum. Stuff you thought everyone took at face value, got away with, will get quoted back to you, always politely and calmly, a hundred answering posts later.
>>Like him or not he doesn't forget much LOL. Don't, ah, forget. Iwent to school in the late 60's.My short term memory is just a, er, ummmmm, you know!
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Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Anyone who clearly remembers the 60s ...Wasn't there.
I'm not quite sure what makes you so feisty, but I'm really not all that interested in in duking it out.>>If you deny what I said the word murder means (i.e., 'intent' and 'malice'), by all means, let's hear your evidence to the contrary. I laid out a couple of factors for discussion of the definition, noting principally that definition and application of legal terms varies from state to state.>>Your opinion don't mean diddly on this one, bro.I practiced law for 12 years. People paid me some pretty nice money for my legal opinions.Now, I didn't practice criminal law, and my only exposure to crim was a couple of law school courses and bar prep.And I don't remember all of the details, but I remember enough to realize that you're not familiar with the ins and outs and variations and complexities of legal issues.If you reread my messages, you will note the concept of "wanton disregard" as a form of implied intent or malice.As you have noted, intent is a necessary requisite for the crime of murder.And I have not and do not contest that aspect of what you are asserting."Intent," however, is a very complex and slippery term in legal circles, and I suspect you might not be up on the concepts of implied intent.Perhaps you might like to take a look at this quick explication:http://myweb.wvnet.edu/~jelkins/crimlaw/notes/berry-williams.html
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Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
I'm not bandying the word about, just telling you the facts - you CAN be charged with murder if you drive under the influence and kill somebody:
http://www.dui1.com/Dui_Lawyers_Driving8.htm
But you make my point, Aimless..Charging someone as a murderer does not a murderer make.
Accidental death; even negligent death is not murder, whatever a court says about it. Courts, lawyers and legislators cannot, no matter how hard they wish it, create--or destroy--Law. Law is like matter and energy. The Supreme Court may some day see fit to repeal the Law of Gravity. But it won't change a dang thing.
"I do hope and pray that I never cause harm to another person. Not because of judgement against me, but because I don't want to harm another person. Fear of punishment is the lesser concern."
Well, good for you. And if you do ever find yourself in a jurybox judging someone for such a thing, and you have in some capacity the power to destroy another person's life in prison or execution, I hope you will follow your commitment to "not harm another person"--not even the accused.
"Charging someone as a murderer does not a murderer make."
No, but running over a little kid playing in his yard when the driver has 3 prior DUI convictions and is driving on a suspended license does. Do I think that driver should be incarcerated for a very long time? Yes I do.
I'm not a pro, just a homeowner, and I think that people should be responsible for their actions. A person who backfeeds a generator improperly is carelessly implementing a weapon of death on the unsuspecting. The line could easily have been dead when it was tested and even when they first started working with it. The generator kicks on and the lineman drops to the ground, dead. An innocent man or woman, just doing their job, FOLLOWED ALL SAFETY PRECAUTIONS, and is dead because some person was too cheap to have the job done properly. Even moreso, I share a transformer with my neighbor. I'm not an electrician or anything, but it sounds to me from this thread that my neighbor could burn my house down with his backfed generator (if he had one). So if my family dies because of his actions that is only manslaughter?
Is a person who leaves a loaded gun in a schoolyard a murderer or a manslayer? Well he didn't pull the trigger, it was just a tragic accident, right? You have a pretty broad definition of 'accidental death', so this should fit right in. Personally, I draw my mental line at: was there a high probability that something terrible could happen if the person behaved that way. If the answer is yes, it is murder, if the answer is no or only maybe, then it is accidental death and manslaughter.
>>Accidental death; even negligent death is not murder, whatever a court says about it. Courts, lawyers and legislators cannot, no matter how hard they wish it, create--or destroy--Law. Legal terms have no meaning without a court's pronouncments>>Law is like matter and energy. The Supreme Court may some day see fit to repeal the Law of Gravity. But it won't change a dang thing.Do you really equate the "law of gravity" with legal issues which are adjudicated in courts?Law is NOTHING like matter and energy.
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Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
"Legal terms have no meaning without a court's pronouncments"Really Bob? So before there were courts, there was no Law?Was there any such thing as "murder" before there were courts, judges and lawyers to discover, define and redefine it?Were there no courts at all left on the Earth, would such a thing as murder still be a crime? Could any crime be possible ? If law has any meaning at all, it must transcend what man has said about it. Otherwise, law does not actually exist.. It is nothing.. And your opinion about a thing you imagine to be a "law" is just that.. Your opinion about nothing. Further, your 'expertise' is relegated meaningless.So Bob, being the lawyer that you allege, what is law? And from whence does it come?
>>So Bob, being the lawyer that you allege
Are you doubting the veracity of my assertion?
The questions you ask go well beyond what can be discussed in forum postings, but here's a little tidbit I've posted here several times:
"Ever since the remote day when human beings began to live together in society, official organs of the state have been charged with the responsibility of deciding disputes between individuals .... From the beginning of social time there have been institutions like courts which have generated or excreted law or something like law. In all societies beyond the most primitive a professional class of lawyers and judges has emerged and maintained itself. In most societies at most periods the legal profession has been heartily disliked by all non-lawyers: a recurrent dream of social reformers has been that the law should be (and can be) simplified and purified in such a way that the class of lawyers can be done away with. The dream has never withstood the cold light of waking reality."
Grant Gilmore, "Ages of American Law"
By the way, are you going to answer my question: do you really equate the law of gravity with laws developed under our legal system?
As you have been warned, there is some stuff I don't forget; this question will be one.
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Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Then it is your take that it's the State which generates human law. For without the "official organs" of the State to codify it, no one could know that murder was a crime. Nor could it be considered a crime without a lawyer to assert it.
My aren't you important.
As for your question>>"do you really equate the law of gravity with laws developed under our legal system?"
No. The Law I refer to supercedes, and predates our pathetic, backwards legal system. The creator of all true Law is also the One who designed the laws of physics. 'Thou shalt not kill' trumps anything any human 'legal system' has or shall ever have to say about it. The commandment--the genesis and root of all law constructs related to it--is not my opinion. It is not anyone's opinion. Like a law of physics, it cannot be overridden or nullified. Like matter, it ultimately cannot be destroyed.
Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.
I don't know how this got turned into a discussion on what is or is not murder (manslaughter would be the most likely conviction), but the bottom line is that the NEC prevents you from backfeeding a panel with a generator.
Since you are quoting the Bible to make your point, then maybe this will persuade you: I Peter 2:13ff "Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme, or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good. For this is the will of God..."
or this: Romans 13:1 "Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God."
Bottom line: It is against the law to backfeed a panel from a generator. Doing so not only endangers you, but the life of everyone in your house AND those of the linemen. Even if their expertise would prevent them, as was stated above, your wife, the sitter, whoever is NOT an expert & forgetting to turn off the main breaker before powering up the generator could result in an explosion or fire when the power comes back on killing everyone in the house.
>>Then it is your take that it's the State which generates human law. For without the "official organs" of the State to codify it, no one could know that murder was a crime.
Nope; please read a bit closer:
"Ever since the remote day when human beings began to live together in society, official organs of the state have been charged with the responsibility of deciding disputes between individuals ...." [Emphasis added.]
That is, the "state" responds to the needs of the community and undertakes the "discovery" of law as it applies to the entire range of human interaction and disputes.
>>The creator of all true Law is also the One who designed the laws of physics. 'Thou shalt not kill' trumps anything any human 'legal system' has or shall ever have to say about it. The commandment--the genesis and root of all law constructs related to it--is not my opinion. It is not anyone's opinion. Like a law of physics, it cannot be overridden or nullified. Like matter, it ultimately cannot be destroyed.
Actually, the nature of the 10 commandments is a matter of "opinion:" it arises from your faith, and faith is simply a belief in something which cannot be proven.
You and I apparently share the same Christian faith, at least in broad outline.
I recognize that it is nothing more than faith: "true" for me but not for everyone.
"You shall not murder" ("Thou shalt not kill" in the KJ version) is a good starting point.
But it leaves a few issues unanswered.
What if I am attacked with deadly force? What if my child is attacked with deadly force? What if a stranger close to me is attacked with deadly force?
Who decides what's deadly force? Should it be an objective or subjective standard?
Our Bible does not answer these questions.
Thus, people have to answer them. Whether the answer arises from some sort of discovery of "law' floating around out there, or from conscious decision making, balancing various societal interests is good conversation around the campfire - it'll help keep the wolves and elephants away - but in the cold bright light of waking reality, people can and do make laws, through their kings, their legislatures, their courts, the town meeting, or around the fire in the teepee.
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Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Was reading in the paper today where a guy was convicted for homicide for disabling a safety on a carnival ride, resulting in a death.
"You better hope and pray you never cause an accident--and a death--and have to be judged by people who think like you."
I do hope and pray that I never cause harm to another person. Not because of judgement against me, but because I don't want to harm another person. Fear of punishment is the lesser concern.
A voltage detector would save many a lineman's life. Not always, but neither do seatbelts always save a life..No excuse then not to use them
It is obvious you have no knowledge of high voltage.
Just how close do you think you can get to a downed line that may be energized to 4KV?
What the range of your voltage detector?
If it doesn't light up outside the standoff distance for the voltage you are dealing with, you are already in the lethal range. That range increases with the voltage.
Backfeed a 4KV transformer and that is what is going back to the down the line. Standoff distance is 3' when that it is hanging from a pole. Take it to ground, and depending on the wet conditions, that lethal range can extend much further than you can guess. You are in the danger zone before you detector is close enough to tell you.
That is why we employ load dispatchers. They shut off circuits, reroute power, and make sure conditions are as safe as possible for the linemen to work.
Dave
Dang, what kind of sandbox is this place..N-A-Z-I-'s is a cussword.
I did a search on manslaugther and backfeed generator.Found many discussions on this and several of them had this line in it."Actually Manslaughter, 1987 case with Louisville Gas and Electric after a tornado " (from a backfeed generator).But could not find any information than that line.
Sorry about the inflammatory "murder" word.
I know the difference between it an manslaughter.
Most of those that participate in this forum also know tah difference in what is legal (within the applicable codes) and what is not. To defend the actions of anyone that willfully violates these minimum standards is just plane wring IMO.
As many of you all know, one of my jobs is "walking wire" durring storms. I work in dangerous conditions as part of our Public Safety Response Team. We are out there trying to prevent our customers, neighbors, friends and families from coming in contact with potential lethal energy.
I accepted that risk when I was ask if I would do the job. We have had extensive training to help reduce our risk of getting hurt. I know to listen for that generator running, but all to often it can't be heard because of the inclement conditions. I also look for lights on where there shouldn't't be any, but again at 2:00 am in the middle of a storm, the people running a generator don't always leave a light on for me. Most of the generators I have run across have just had extension cords running to a refrigerator, TV, and a lamp or two. Most people don't have a clue about how to backfeed tier panel, but for those that do, I believe the term willful negligence is way short of what they are really doing.
To condone are excuse such behavior is beyond me.
Dave
i'm sorry but why do you think it takes five years to get an electrician's liscence. I could have had a master's degree for the time i have put in to knowing my trade. i chose to be an electrician because that is what i wanted to do. THE NEC IS ALL ABOUT SAFETY. do you think
711 pages of code book is arbitrary information?
how would you feel if some one got seriously injured or died because of your stupid shortcut.
and right ANY electrician that shows anyone how to get around the code requirements for generators or any thing else should lose his liscence
for L-I-F-E
this stuff is a matter of life and death
berg
I agree.The NEC is not a set of arbitrary rules. A common adage, with some truth even if it is not literally true across the board, is that every article in the code has a casualty behind it. These rules are written in blood and tears.A useful, and possibly painful, exercise would be to find out where the linemen hang out. Not uncommonly a watering hole near the central shop will have a high proportion of lineman shortly after the day shift is over.I suggest one get a gut level feeling for the consensus of the linemen on backfeeding a generator into a panel. Put on your best face and strut into said watering hole. Loudly brag about backfeeding a generator into a panel. Reinforce this by spouting contempt for the NEC, inspections and all 'arbitrary and capricious' rules. Loudly express an abiding unwillingness to comply with these, or any, rules because it interferes with 'individual rights' to do as one damn well pleases. Note and contemplate the subtle nuances of any responses. Be prepared perform a strategic withdrawal. This sort of informal survey can provide a rough, but informative, view of how a concerned population feels about the subject.I advise that anyone attempting such plumbing of the depth of feeling make sure their medical insurance is paid up and that they be wearing clean underwear. Though there is no guarantee how long they will remain unsoiled.For linemen, neighbors and other concerned parties backfeeding a generator into a panel without a proper transfer switch is a matter of life and limb. It is serious business. It concerns me that the methods and systems used in electrical work have become so inherently safe, that the emphasis on DIY and 'you can do it after you read a brochure' movement has become so pervasive that people forget that there is more to it than just putting pieces together. That the impression is that a deeper and more comprehensive understanding isn't important. That the dangers have been corralled and vanquished to the point that electrical work is no more dangerous or challenging than crossing the street.Of course professionals, at least those worth listening to, maintain, even if they don't show it, a deep respect, verging on fear, of the forces they are controlling. They know that a minor mistake can cause major problems. To the point of extreme property loss and/or death.
I suggest one get a gut level feeling for the consensus of the linemen on backfeeding a generator into a panel.
Actually did just that a couple of yrs ago. Wasn't what you expect. The guys around here look forward to the opportunity. Seems they really enjoy frying a generator for anybody dumb enough to make it available. I heard lots of stories, accompanied by lots of laffs. Apparently common enough that they assume backfeed and work accordingly. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Linemen, as I understand it from some exposure to the trade, will always try to use their grounds religiously. Problem is it slows things down and, especially after a hurricane comes through, everyone needs power yesterday or sooner. Linemen, just like the HOs who claim they would never forget to switch off the main to isolate their generator from the line, are human. When working fast safety grounds get forgotten or connected incorrectly. PPE checks get forgotten or sloppily done. And it only takes a single ground missed and/or a pinhole in a glove to end a career. Faults made more probable and dangerous because the wind may be throwing rain sideways at the crews as they work. Mostly the crews stop work and seek shelter when the wind reaches a steady 45mph but a 44mph wind with gusts and heavy rain is still rough when your 40' up on a boom. A fact that doesn't help the composure or concentration of people trying to work fast.On the up side there is a running joke that generator heads turn into motors that fight the engine when the line current is applied driven by a municipal power plant. If the HO is really lucky it just blows the breakers on his generator head. Burning out the head, the head catching fire or engine exploding are possible. None of these do the generator any good. Given some proximity of the generator to the house and/or HO the house catching fire or the HO being injured is a possibility.That this might happen when emergency personnel are busy elsewhere, the roads blocked, and the water mains without pressure only makes the situation worse. Nothing like being seriously burned, watching your house on fire, knowing that the firemen are not on the way and you have no water available to fight the fire to make for a bad day.
I understood your point. But our linemen are clearly interested in having fun. Maybe it makes the risk easier to handle, don't know. Pretty sure they gave no consideration to emergency response that might be needed due to an exploding generator.
This is mountain country, for Va anyway, and these guys work for a coop that provides electricity in formerly very rural areas. Over mountains, through bad ravines, you name it they go there. And they like to have their fun. I didn't ask, but I'm pretty sure they wouldn't feel all that bad about a house burning down from somebody backfeeding. As in, it probably won't happen again...PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Re: "And they like to have their fun. I didn't ask, but I'm pretty sure they wouldn't feel all that bad about a house burning down from somebody backfeeding."I suspect that what you heard was more dark on-the-job humor and hyperbole than the read, considered, feelings on most linemen. In my limited experience with utility linemen, I have met quite a few but still not a fair sample, almost to a man they are generous and caring people who often work in very difficult situations and take real risks trying to get power to people who depend on it. I have witnesses crews working in the middle of a hurricane, the wind well above the 45 mph limit when they are supposed to stop. The police and fire departments had stopped running. They wanted to make the last few connections on a repair they had started on a line that had been taken down by a tree fall. The rain was coming down, actually most seemed to be going sideways, as they wrestled the lines into place. Their buckets shaking in the wind like junkies.The reason they wanted to take the risk was that an entire neighborhood would be flooded if the pumps couldn't run. There were smaller diesel pumps working but they couldn't keep up with the rain. The linemen could have backed out and run for shelter. None could have criticized them for protecting themselves. And yet there they were getting the job done with the lightning cracking around them.I don't think these guys want to hurt anyone. I think they get mad thinking that people don't value their efforts enough to bother to hook up generators correctly. I think the jokes about wanting to blow up generators are black humor. Soldiers jokes about turning into 'pink mist' after stepping on a mine. Electricians joke about switch gear exploding and getting cooked like a hotdog in a cooker. The boss comes around the corner and gives you a hearty 'well done'. Every profession that faces danger has its jokes and dark humor.The boom on most bucket trucks is insulated. The utility companies, linemen and their unions have pushed hard to make the job as inherently safe as possible. But humans, no matter how well trained and careful, make mistakes. Rainwater can make things that don't conduct into conductors at the worse possible time. High voltage arcs, once they start with a tiny spark convert the air itself into a good conductor as it ionizes.
I suspect that what you heard was more dark on-the-job humor and hyperbole
Maybe, but you weren't there. And it wasn't a bar. Quite sure they don't want to hurt anybody, other than in the wallet.
I won't follow your lead in claiming that they are representative of all linemen. Clearly, I don't know. As you later point out, you don't either.
These are guys I've spent more than a little time with. Initially with our half mile installation up a mountain, then with problems. They appreciate my efforts when it happens. I've got machinery otherwise unavailable to them. They know my attitude and where I live. As you say, we're all in it together.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I have seen transfer switches that basically just included a mechanical lockout between the two breakers (line and genset). If you could somehow rig a reasonably reliable lockout then it should be OK -- not code perhaps (no UL sticker), but ethically as good as code.
This lockout could be something like a piece of steel plate that must be slid over to block the main breaker off before the genset breaker can be turned on.
The problem with "following procedure" is that that doesn't tend to happen too well when it's 3 in the morning and the baby's sick and you just spent 30 minutes getting the darned genset started.
Re the argument that you can't really back-feed the power line -- the generator will trip -- that's likely true if there are several other homes on the line. But that may not be true in a lot of situations. The power lines may be knocked down such that yours is the only home on the block that's connected. Also, even if other homes are connected, when the power goes out in the middle of the night on a temperate night the only load in the neighbor's homes you'll be running is the refrigerators (and less than half of those, if the power hasn't been off too long).
This rule was not invented on whim. Linemen have been killed by generators backfeeding the lines.
There is really only one way to do this correctly, as others have said either a UL listed trasfer switch for the entire load (or a partial load in a critcal circuit panel) or a UL listed transfer panel that selectivly switches critcal loads to the generator. That said in the "heat of battle" it is possible and permissable to directly connect a generator to the incomming load conductors to provide standby electricity. The work should be done by a licensed electrican and should involve the complete removal of the service conductors from the utility's meter/disconnect. Make sure that a connection to the grounding electrode system is maintained. This of course will require a return visit from a licensed contractor once utility power is restored, and could require a service upgade if your equipment is out of date! so beware. I would resort to this only in the case of an extended power disruption. Roger
I have trouble getting some customers to change furnace filters.
My own father - in - law, one of the nicest gentleman on the planet, shut off the wrong breaker while I was checking his AC.
Any electrician that shows a customer how to hack a generator should lose his licsence.
Has anyone got documented proof of a lineman being injured by an incorrectly connected generator. I know it is possible, but like junkhound said, if you backfeed into the main line the load would be so high as to short out the generator. Now if the mains were broken and you were feeding into a small section of line, its possible to energize the lines.
I can say that connecting the generator into energized lines would be interesting. My dad used to connect running generators into the mains at a small power station at paper mills and General Motors plants, and they had to be synchronized at the moment of connection. This was in the old days before electronics. They had a lamp bulb that had to be out when the big knife switch was thrown, and a neon lamp and pattern to verify 60 hz rpm. Dad said one time someone connected the generator out of phase and it jolted the power plant so bad dust rained down inside and the whole building shook.
scroll down to about the seventh paragraph, the preceding title is
"outage fear fuels problem"http://www.lineman.com/about_articles4.cfm"
As I suspected, short lines are a problem. I do get the shivers sometimes when I hear how people connect generators to the house wiring. I have heard of fires caused by generators getting connected to mains. I haven't heard of anyone being injured before by a generator backfeeding lines until now.
everyone here should read the whole story, one utility in D.C. is offering a genset with interlocked relays that they install for the cust. at the meter"
Has anyone got documented proof of a lineman being injured by an incorrectly connected generator. I know it is possible, but like junkhound said A person died last week in pensacola because of this.
Transfer switch....Really broad topic frought with lawsuits.
There are safety switches made for that duty, there are electrical panels made for that sole purpose and there are accessories to standard load centers that allow you to backfeed a panel based on the manufacturers authorized products.
One thing for certain, you as the logical designer of the system will probably not be there to transfer power. Consider "Alan accountant" your operator Or "Susie homemaker". If there is a way to screw it up they will. You then are liable.
For certain you don't want both sources (line & Generator)working at the same time. If they are both on then they need to be electrically isolated. An incorrect frequency match will be viewed as "Work" by the electrical potential on the line & generator and it will smoke the wiring.
Danger!! Will Robinson!
I agree that a fail-safe device specifically built for the purpose of transferring power safely in the case of a power failure is the only way to go. Take the homeowner, tenant, etc. out of the equation by simply spending a bit more up front, having it installed professionally, tested safe, etc.I have seen boat systems where this sort of a shore-power/ship power is also addressed. Instead of a automatic transfer switch, these basic systems consist of two double-pole breakers that have a sliding cover mounted in front of them. Only one breaker pair can be "live" at any given time.As simple and foolproof as such systems seem, they do require someone to be around to switch the power in the first place. Hence my preference for automatic systems.
While those setups are legal in some cases I prefer not to install them. Reasoning behind this was made very clear to me when I worked on a service call where the the incoming power was in question.I drop the cover on the main panel and take readings. Not finding the problem I move to the transfer switch panel mounted above the main. After removing the cover the interconnect between the two breakers falls out on the floor. We tracked the voltage down to a corroded connection at the transformer. Called in the POCO and everything was right with the world.Until we considered the fifty cent piece of sheet steel that was being used to convert what is essentially a normal breaker panel into a transfer switch. Simple enough for this piece to fall out, get lost, or installed incorrectly. And without its linking function between the two breakers either, neither or both breakers could be on at the same time. Defeating the purpose and benefit of using a transfer switch in the first place.Only the cover itself was holding it in place and once the cover was removed the safety feature, the interlocking of the breakers so that only one could be on at a time, was completely lost. A fairly unique situation in low voltage electrical panels.Because of this I much prefer that any transfer switch used have a mechanical design that cannot be easily defeated or that is likely to fail when the dead-front is removed for troubleshooting, maintenance or inspection. The dead front should not be a functioning part of the interconnect. The cover should keep fingers and foreign materials out and sparks or arc flash during a failure in but otherwise it should have no electrical function.The inspector tells me that most of these transfer switches are not service rated and were originally designed for load transfer, as in alternating between a main and standby pump, not service transfer. He hints that various inspection authorities are increasingly aware of this situation, evidently there have been a few accidents already, and the standard is likely to be tightened. Both at the AHJ, enforcement, level and possibly more explicitly within the code.
I totally agree that the "fail-safe" that a sliding breaker blocker provides is scant. Hence my preference for systems like the one you describe where everything is behind a panel with no switches, toggles, outlets, etc. to muck with.My mum has a 10kW system because her power fails regularly. The Dayton-brand transfer switch works beautifully every time I have witnessed the system fire up in anger. Should I have the system inspected to ensure that the switch is rated for its intended service?
>>The inspector tells me that most of these transfer switches are not service rated and were originally designed for load transfer, as in alternating between a main and standby pump, not service transfer."Not service rated" Are you talking a specified # of amps, or does that term have another, sepcialized meaning?
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Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
I think 4lorn means service entrance rated, as in suitable for use as a main service entrance disconnect. Actually, I often design interlocked circuit breakers into projects, mainly for things like municipal wastewater lift station control panels. However, the ones I use are pretty sturdy devices that are bolted right to the circuit breakers and are fairly foolproof (and they are service entrance rated.) Square D, ABB, etc sell them, they're usually buried in the back of their circuit breaker catalogs.
Popular Science magazine has a good article on how to set up a portable generator for home use on their website (they use interlocked circuit breakers in their example, but a regular old manual transfer switch would work as well): http://www.popularmechanics.com/home_improvement/home_improvement/1275631.html?page=1&c=y
Edited 7/28/2005 9:06 pm ET by Stuart
Service rated equipment is usually rated at higher AICs, amps interrupt current, stopping the current if that is its function and higher withstand rating, its ability to take the high currents for a sustained period common to unfused circuits.Service rated equipment has to survive the heat, arc blast and high magnetic forces that last far longer than what is expected on a fused circuit. An example is an overhead service drop. If it shorts out it has no fuses protecting it on the load side of the transformer. Typically it has to 'blow' itself clear. Quite a dramatic fireworks display. Similarly the drop, if the short is, for example, in the meter can, has to be able to withstand the surge and current that the short draws. Until such time as the short clears. The meter can has to contain the flames and sparks to some degree without exploding and without setting the house on fire. Still happens but mostly not. Saw a three phase unit shooting flames and sparks out a good ten feet after the meter went bad but it was away from the building and other than some soot and smoke no other harm was done. Destroyed the riser, drop, meter can and main panel on the other side of the wall but the building was still standing. A robust demonstration that the equipment designs work. Both our crew and the lineman sat back, at safe distance, and watched the fireworks as the short blew though the riser and climbed the drop. Loud, dramatic and spectacular. It finally cleared where the conductors spread to make connections to the transformer. Lineman was kind enough to quickly hook up another drop and we set up temporary power to work with and to run a freezer.A transfer switch placed between the meter and the main panel, the first point of disconnect is supposed to be service rated. Some are not and some inspectors, probably because until recently transfer switches have been relatively rare, are not catching it.Transfer switches that are after the first point of disconnect and protected from generator end by fusing have more lax requirements. The inspector was also thinking the requirement on these might be tightened to eliminate the less fail-safe designs.
I see what you mean by service rated, but I imagine if you had all your critical items (fridge, freezer, furnace & one or two lights in the house) coming out of a sub-panel & put the transfer switch in between the main panel & the sub panel, you wouldn't need a service rated switch (you also wouldn't need as big a generator)
In that case, with a small genny, you might be better off to keep it portable for other uses, and just figure on running extension cords if you need it for backup. That way the genny also goes with you if you move.
To me, the transfer switch route only makes sense if you're going to the expense of having a big enough generator to run most of the house. And that only makes sense if your POCO's reliability really massively sucks. Here we lose power for the better part of a day maybe once in ten years. We do get those split second blinkning twelves on all the clocks dropouts about six or eight times a year.
-- J.S.
Great info.Do I understand that to mean that a 100 amp "main disconnect" has to be "service rated" but a 100 amp fused breaker, used so feed a sub-panel, say, doesn't need to be?And how would I determine if a transfer switch (or that 100A "main disconnect") is service rated? Will that be on the label?
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Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
4LORN1-
May I do a listening check or in this case a reading check?
As I understand it, if you have a panel where the manufactured panel front sheet metal prevents a breaker for a standby generator from being operated unless the service disconnecting means is in the "off" position, then you have a legal installation as far as the NEC goes. However, the local authority having jurisdiction may or may not permit it.
BUT, you as a licensed electrician not having any idea how the panel will be used or abused once you leave the site, would not install it or recommend it.
I'm not trying to be smart. I'm building a house and I want to be able to use my portable emergency generator when necessary. I installed the service for the temporaty mobile home we have, but don't think I will do that again. I have zero interest in violating the NEC and certainly do not want to create a situation where a lineman could get hurt. I do want to be able to differentiate between what the code requires and is recommended practice when discussing with the electrician the alternatives.
Thanks
"Until we considered the fifty cent piece of sheet steel that was being used"..to secure the transfer action. (paraphrase)
Sounds like the Cutler Hammer front panel mounted slide switch. I see those in the telecom industry and it is frighteningly simple... yet suspect. It is composed of a 2" strip of 16 ga steel and a rivit to the flush mount load center cover.
Other versions are available by other manufacturers. In my experience a Square D QO "rocker" type of insert seems better. However more expensive breakers make the OEM pale at providing too much value in the product. Certainly a $2.00 value for the rocker, (probably costs 20) but somewhat more reliable.
Gen set manufacturers make/sell some standard transfer systems which provide not much in the comfort / security of design but legally they provide you a litigation trail should it fail. Funny how that has a value. (...if they screw up at least you can sue someone)
Yes a maunal transfer switch in the form of a safety switch is the most fool proof but in the hundreds of $ range. Automatic transfer switches are better yet but also more pricey... say 1000's of $'s dependant on the amperage.
If the original poster is confused, I'd hope they'd opt for a pre-engineered solution. This isn't an area for an 'add a circuit electrician'Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
I noticed that HD was selling gensets in the $2500-4000 range with automatic transfer switches included. (I'm vaguely recalling these were about 15-25KW.)The switches were designed to attach next to your breaker panel, with about 10 circuits in the breaker panel "hijacked" to enter the switch instead.
Commonly the smaller gen sets have a bank of cheapo breakers hooked up to individual 120 or 240 volt outlets. That can work for the short term pretty well for most people considered it is for occcasional use.
The installed version with a Automatic transfer switch will undoubtedly work too. and it probably is a more heavily designed circuit The question is how long will the system last.
Duty ratings are not usually looked at by consumers. I mean there isn't really a number or approval to look for on a system to decide how long it will perform as designed. OEM's and industrial users do go to great lengths to specify parts in a system in order to have a system meet their designed reliability. The duty rating is not part of the "Rating Label " on a device or control panel. It is a quality issue that, people who care about longevity, will specify to a manufacturer of gear.
Without getting in it deeper, suffice it to say I can get a 15 amp breaker that meets agency approvals that will provide less than 50 operations by life cycle design. In the same vein I can specify a 15 amp breaker that will take 100,000 or more operations by design.
$ are some kind of indicator but no more of a determining factor than beauty is in the selection of a life mate.
Most of our discussion has been regarding unreliable utilities and prevention of spoilage of the venison in the freezer. Quality or manual conversion of the circuits are small matters there. Time is measured in minutes or hours without power.
Home medical conditions ie. ventilators, climate controls and equipment for the infirmed are one of the places where the shake it out of the box Generac generic solution is probably not the best choice. Hardwired reliability installed and reviewed by an electrician or a skilled engineer are required there.
In short if it is freezer meat do it yourself, if we are preserving a life it needs some experienced review.
Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
Edited 7/29/2005 4:13 pm ET by Booch
Well, the individual circuits appeared to be on regular Square D breakers, and I don't see why anything special would be required. As I said, I couldn't see the innards of the actual transfer switch, but likely it works out that it's easier/cheaper to make a reliable automatic transfer switch than it is to make a manual one (that can't be easily circumvented). No fingers in the switch means no fingers doing the wrong thing.
One of your initial questions involved the switching of neutral in the transfer panel.
There is a good discussion of that here: http://members.rennlist.org/warren/generator.html
If I have my electrical theory correct, bonding neutral and ground in a situation such as using a generator hooked to a transfer panel should only occur in one location. If the transfer panel does not switch neutral, then any bond in the generator must be disconnected. If the transfer panel does switch neutral, you want the bond connected at the generator.
Of course, one of the dangers of seperating the bond for a portable generator is using it on its own elsewhere for power - you have to ensure you reconnect the bond or you risk electrocution.
4Lorn, Bill H and others with far better electrical knowledge than I may have more to add ....
Paul.
I see that I am late to this party...please forgive me. Also, please humor me if I repeat something already said :-)
A transfer switch is an essential part of any home generation set-up. If you intend to "net meter," well, there is equipment that lets you do so SAFELY for everyone involved.
The transfer switch may or may not open the neutral; this depends upon whether or not the generator is being used as a "separately derived system." If you don't understand this, don't feel bad....even sparkies get confused!
In a contest between the Power Company and your generator, the generator will lose. Big time. Often spectacularily.
Generators typically cost lots of money. The NECA standard for installing residential generators costs $30. Chump change, if you ask me. Get one, and follow the instructions.
Double-male-ended cords are populat among the uninformed. For their benefit- and to help slow down the spreading of this ignorance- the NEC added section 406.6B to specifically say "don't do this."