Replies

1. 
   PeteVa | May 12, 2006 02:25am | #1

   My dealer sells a 1/4" asphalt impregnated fiber material that I use prior to back filling, it comes in 4 x 8 sheets.

1. 
   billd60 | May 12, 2006 03:40am | #3

   Do you have a brand name or manufacturer?  Sounds lke the perfect solution since I need only to get to a reasonable distance below siding.  What does it look like? 

1. 
   PeteVa | May 12, 2006 04:30am | #5

   Can't think of a brand name right off but this stuff is used to protect the membrane from back fill damage. It isn't for the remainder of the to be exposed wall.I'll check my stack tomorrow and see if it has any labeling.

2. 
   Piffin | May 12, 2006 02:27am | #2

   Not sure if I totally understand your problem, but here is what I have always done -

   The same folks who sell the ICF materioals have products to stucco over exposed material. Synthetic stucos to fibre-re-inforced stack'n'bond types of portland product. Or you can have masons run a wire lathe and rela stucco onto the foam forms. The wire is attached with screws and washers right at the smae tags provided for strapping walls.

   with most of these products, it is best to roll on a coat on bonding agent such as acril 60 first. That makes for a slightly tacky ( think post-it notes) surfqace that will hold better. I have also scrified the foam surface byu dragging a wire brush over it to increase the mechanical bond.

   After the stucco is on, then I snap lines where the grade will be finished up to, and use an emulsified roll0on tar foundation water-proffing. There are many others available

    

    

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1. 
   experienced | May 12, 2006 06:17am | #7

   "then I snap lines where the grade will be finished up to, and use an emulsified roll0on tar foundation water-proffing."

   Is this stuff waterproofing or what we call "dampproofing" up here? The dampproofing is designed to prevent water diffusion through the concrete from the damp soil. It opens when a shrinkage crack occurs and does not stop nuisance foundation leakage. Another thing found with this stuff is that certain soils (acidic, I believe) actually dissolve the tar and you're left with a black stain.

   A product we used to use on our wood foundations was an "elastomeric " coating- 2 layers rolled on. We tried a sample test patch on some wax paper first, peeled it off and tried to tear it. It stretched about 1/2 to 3/4 inch before it tore!!! If any crack in a foundation gets that wide, you've got other problems; don't worry about leakage!!

3. 
   Notchman | May 12, 2006 04:08am | #4

   Most ICF suppliers recommend a waterproofing membrane overlayed with a protection barrier to protect the waterproofing membrane from punctures by rocks or other debris that may be in the backfill material.

   I would contact one or more of the ICF suppliers to get a range of options;  few of the ICF suppliers push proprietary products, so what you need may be available locally.

4. 
   trout | May 12, 2006 04:49am | #6

   The method I use with ICF foundations is a carefully applied waterproofing membrane.  I've also applied a roll-on asphalt emulsion, but there is a time advantage to the membrane sheets to mitigate some of the extra material cost and it's much less messy.

   Grace ice and water shield is rated for underground uses and is the preferred brand.  The membrane marketed by ARXX (the supplier of our blocks) is similar, but higher priced with no noticeable benefits over the Grace product.

   We place vertical strips of ice and water shield from a few inches higher than needed, down to the outside of the footer.  The top edges will peel off the foam if left to their own devices so we screw a continuous strip of 2x4 to just cover the extra material that will be above ground until time to finish the exposed foam.  The 2x4 protection looks professional and provides ideal protection to the membrane edge.  We go so far as to shoot the 2x4 line with a laser so it can be used as a reference line for the stucco guys or anytime we need a level plane on the exterior.

   It's important to get good contact between strips since it's easy to get dirt in there and water will enter.

   To finally answer your question, backfilling depends on the material.  If you are lucky enough to have sand or dirt with rocks that are smooth then we don't hesitate to backfill as is.  However, if you have sharp rocks, or larger rock then it's probably safer to backfill with a protective sheet over the membrane.  ARXX block is packaged with a sheet in each bundle of blocks and that is the recommended material.  Others have used rigid foam sheets, which work well and help boost the R value a tad bit.

   If we were in a jam and needed to get the foundation backfilled without a membrane protector I wouldn't hesitate to backfill with whatever material is available, but it takes much more time to keep the large rocks away from direct contact with the foundation.  A hand-shovel guy has to be there to keep the rocks to the outside of the trench.

   Following this method, sections of foundation that needed to be unearthed for unexpected utility work, or whatnot, have an intact membrane in perfect condition.

   Good luck

5. 
   CRF | May 12, 2006 06:38am | #8

   I used a product called "Soprema" on my ICF foundation that doubled as waterproofing and to help with what your describing.

   Similar to the Grace products out there.  It has a peel and stick application and comes in IIRC 40" wide roll, anout 50' long.  Runs about $85 roll.  The older products used to be black like Grace and the sun would heat them up and then they would start to slough off the ICF if you dallied a few days before backfilling.  This Soprema has a white front so it avoids the sun slough and is incredibly strong, looks like the Titanium roofing underlayment.  Anyhow, I don't get any commision or kickback but I was pleased with how well it worked.  I was able to dump the backfill right into the trench with no worries about punctures. 

   Good Luck!

6. 
   ronbudgell | May 12, 2006 01:22pm | #9

   I have mostly used peel and stick membranes like most of the previous posters, sometimes adding scrap sheet material, sometimes adding the plastic sheet that's bundled with the blocks.

   Yesterday in HD, I was looking at a different kind of product made for that job. It looks pretty interesting in that it is supposed to be both backfill protection and waterproofing combined. Seemed like a reasonable price. It can be installed when cold or wet and it's nearly always cold or wet or both when you're down in a foundation trench, isn't it?

   I have no experience with it. I'm interested enough to try it though. You can see it here:

   http://www.systemplaton.com

   Ron

    

1. 
   moltenmetal | May 12, 2006 01:39pm | #10

   I did a  couple coats of Blueskin or Blueseal or some such- it's a paint-on latex rubber membrane safe for use over foam.  Then I overlaid that with the Platon membrane, which is a dimple-sheet material made of rigid polyethylene.  Comes on a continuous roll which by luck was almost exactly the length I required for my addition. 

   Platon serves several purposes:  it's a water barrier, an inner waterproofing membrane protector AND a "french drain" (drainage plane) with a huge free area.  If you've got a properly installed and functioning footer drain, any water that does manage to sneak past the Platon membrane will not pond to any depth against the wall- it will run down the airspace between the Platon and the wall.  In my heavy clay, a drainage layer and pumped drainage is the only way you're going to keep a dry basement long term.  Despite having no gutters or properly graded back-fill installed yet, my new basement is as dry as a bone. 

1. 
   ronbudgell | May 12, 2006 01:51pm | #11

   Molten,

   What's your opinion on using Platon as backfill protection for an ICF foundation? Is it tough enough? Will backfill pressure force the dimples into the foam leaving no drainage plane?

   Ron

1. 
   moltenmetal | May 15, 2006 02:30pm | #18

   I guess you'd have to talk to someone who had excavated beside an installation of Platon over exterior foam to know that for sure.  But I suspect that the pressure exerted by the soil would be insufficient to push that many dimples that deep into the foam.  And even if it did shove the dimples into the foam to 9/10ths of their depth, the resulting space would still be at least a million times more hydraulically conductive than my clay backfill.  With a working (pumped or daylighted) footer drainage system, the BlueSkin is probably little more than "belt and suspenders" treatment above about 1' from the footer, so I'm not worried about what the product literature says about whether or not it's good below grade.  What matters to me most is that it's elastic and compatible with foam, which many of the asphaltic membranes are not.

   Around here, an exterior drainage plane is listed as as a requirement on the standard installation detail provided with the building permit.  The alternative to Platon would be a 1" layer of high density mineral fibre insulation.  Given that alternative, I think Platon will be more likely to produce a dry basement because it not only forms a drainage plane, it also provides an exterior water barrier.

1. 
   ronbudgell | May 16, 2006 04:27pm | #19

   Moltenmetal,

   If you used the fibre insulation, you would have to stick on a membrane first, wouldn't you? Two operations instead of one if you use the Platon. That stuff is looking better and better.

   Ron

    

2. 
   user-115829 | May 17, 2006 04:13am | #20

   We use the membrane supplied by the manufacturer and cover with an asphalt sheet product used in roofing.  It works well.  I'm interested in the Blueskin products mentioned here by Ron... I'll check with Guildford's in the morning.

   I'd like to share a real life experince I've witnessed in a local subdivision.  The situation is a first-time ICF builder building an ICF basement.

   1)    Backfilled foundation 2-3 days after pour.

   2)    No floor framing or bracing left in place.

   3)    Backfilled with wet clay.

   One wall has a noticable bow inward of (I'm guessing here) 6 inches on a 30' long wall. 

3. 
   ronbudgell | May 17, 2006 01:27pm | #21

   Carp

   Very cool - another bt'er in Nova Scotia. Where are you? Where do you work?

   Blueskin is just another self adhesive membrane, no better or cheaper than the others, just bluer. You can get it a number of places including Payzant's. They sell Integra-spec ICF. The membrane will cost you more there than across the road at Guildford's.

   I have also used a roofing membrane by Soprema which had a granular mineral surface like roof shingles. Used it right up to the siding - no parging. That was on the first ICF job I ever did, going on 11 years ago. I see it frequently and it still looks fine.

   The sheet protection you mentioned, is that KD board?

   Ron

    

    

    

4. 
   user-115829 | May 18, 2006 03:39am | #22

   Hey Ron;

   I live in Western Shore and work pretty much along the South Shore.  Our company is based in Bridgewater.

   I've used the KD board before but was concerned about it breaking down and possibly plugging the drainage.

   The product I mentioned comes in 4 foot square sheets so we layered it as the foundation was backfilled.  We use the Nudura ICF that Bird-Stairs sell.  We bought this sheet product from them as well.  I wish I could remember the name.  I remember it was heavy as heck though.

   I like the Soprema idea.  I can't say I enjoy parging.  I know some folks who fasten treated plywood and paint.  I really don't like that idea.

   I too was looking at the Planton product... or was it called Delta something?  I can't remember what the product was called.  I know of project here locally that used Integra-Spec with a sprayed water barrier.  The same excavation contractor I use did the backfilling and he said there was no protection needed over the membrane.  They trucked in gravel type fill and had no problems.

   I would say 50% or our work is ICF construction.  I like it.  Started back with BlueMax and then Arxx and now Nudura.  I've looked at the new block Truefoam are producing and may use it on our next project.

   Merrill

5. 
   ronbudgell | May 18, 2006 04:00am | #23

   Carp,

   Did you do that house on the back harbour in Chester last year? I think that was Nudura.

   I've been at it just about as long as you have. My first couple of jobs were also Blue Maxx.

   I've used cement board instead of parging, too. It's OK when there's not too much area to cover.

   The block from Trufoam is called Reward, I think. It has smooth surfaces inside and so no mechanical bond between the concrete and the foam so around here, the inspectors call for vapour barrier and house wrap on those walls. Don't ask me to explain the logic because I can't. Check with your local inspectors. It also has a lot of clutter inside. Voids.

   I might be doing a Nudura job soon. What do you think of it?

   We were discussing the waterproofing system Platon above. I think it looks pretty good. Home Depot has it.

   Ron

6. 
   user-115829 | May 18, 2006 04:16am | #24

   Ron, we didn't do that one in Chester.  Mostly in Bridgewater area.

   I really like the Nudura.  The blocks have a hinged assembly in web that allows the block to fold flat.  This allows more product to be transported in a smaller volume.  One would think this should equal a lower price in shipping from Ontario or Quebec to here but I'm not to sure the savings are past on to contractor from the distributor.  Secondly the block has no top or bottom so when ripping a block the top can be flipped and used as a bottom.  The best feature I like is the webs have a locking feature that locks each course together... no tying!

2. 
   experienced | May 12, 2006 02:25pm | #12

   Ron:

   Have a look at their  warranty- they basically cover nothing if they have a product failure. They will replace the amount of failed product with new uninstalled product- no installation costs such as excavating, removal of old, re-landscaping, etc.!!! They will not cover any damages caused by failure of their product like rotten/water damaged interior walls/floors, etc.

   Really not much of a warranty!! Sounds like they won't really stand behind their product.

1. 
   ronbudgell | May 12, 2006 09:27pm | #13

   Is Blueskin any better?

   Ron

1. 
   experienced | May 12, 2006 10:10pm | #14

   Blueskin is only approved for above ground as an air/vapour barrier although around here I'm seeing it used for basement waterproofing.

   I should have continued a bit more with that last post  but I had a call coming in!!

   I think the drainage mats are a good product but I would still only add them to concrete foundations that had re-bar in them and had a 2 coat elastomeric membrane or similar. That way you have belt + suspender + suspender approach.

   Use the ICF manufacturer approved waterproofing system. See if the manufacturer will accept the dimpled mat against their approved waterproofing. They may be afraid of the dimples pushing through the waterproof layer during backfilling when sideways pressures of the soils will be highest or maybe later on in poorly drained local soils when frost may push the dimples inward.

   Do all things possible (within financial reason)  before you install the drainage mat. And then gutters, downspout extensions and proper grading afterwards.

   Edited 5/12/2006 4:14 pm ET by experienced

1. 
   ronbudgell | May 13, 2006 02:10pm | #15

   Experienced,

   I have used Blueskin undergrouind and it has been supplied by the ICF distributor. The manufacturer, Bakor, says it can be used below grade with protection board.

   They also like the idea of using an additional drainage board. I do too, but sometimes it doesn't seem necessary. The soil and conditions make allthe difference.

   Here's a little brochure on Blueskin.

   http://www.bakor.com/data/techtalk/ICF_and_Blueskin_WP_200.pdf

   Ron

2. 
   experienced | May 13, 2006 05:09pm | #16

   Thanks, Ron

   When I typed "Blueskin" into my search bar, only the air & vapour barrier page came up. A further sojourn into "product literature" after reading your post revealed their water and dampproofing products.

   But I have seen the wall product being used on foundations. Some people must think that "Blueskin" is a single product for all uses.

   Edited 5/13/2006 10:34 am ET by experienced

3. 
   ronbudgell | May 14, 2006 02:11pm | #17

   Experienced,

   You're right about that and I don't think the manufacturer helps much by making it all look the same. People are inclined to think there is no difference between them, The price is diferent, though.

   Guildford's sells both. The foundation stuff comes in a box. The wall stuff in an unpackaged roll.

   So there's two differences I know of.

   Ron