What’s up with the Chinese cr*p birch plywood? I can’t rip a sheet that doesn’t twist or delaminate or bow. My Mom & Pop lumber yard, HD and Lowes all have sold me garbage.
My local yard said maybe I should by the stain grade birch ply instead of paint grade but why would the Chinese change their process between the two when all that needs to change is the surface.
Anyone with a source of domesticly produced birch ply. I don’t care if it’s double in price, I want plywood.
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Replies
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/wp/plywood.html
i believe you said price doesn't matter,with those prices i would have to learn how to measure right the first time.
i'm just like you,i really like the look of hd's oak ply,not a rotary cut,almost a a rift cut on some of it. but the stuff will twist and turn like crazy. i build crooked enough without the wood going every which way.
if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Go to a cabinet supply wholesaler. They usually stock Columbia Products. Pretty sure all their stuff is made in North America.
Unfortunately I believe that is not true. One of their plants is here and they do have some import stuff IIRC. I will try to comfirm with a sales buddy. However what they have is /has always been pretty good stuff.For those who have fought for it Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.
Buy cabinet grade ply and your problems should go away. Cabinet grade will have seven or nine plys vs the five ply stuff you've been buying.
Dude...let me paint you a picture, this stuff is called cabinet grade at my local yard. This plywood has at least 11 plies. But as plywood is supposed to be alternating grain direction I don't think the Chinese they know to do that.
And besides what possible use for $40 a sheet, paint grade birch plywood could there be but to build plywood.
I've been on the block building cabinets for over 30 years and my issue is the degrade of the products we find available and the suppliers that think price is the only consideration we have.
I've built more than a few cabinets myself over the past several years and I long ago figured out that you ain't gonna get good quality plywood anywhere at $40/sheet - no matter what the vendor calls it.I buy all of my cabinet grade ply from a "for real" hardwood supplier that seems to be the supplier to every cabinetmaker around here. The only plywood I've ever gotten there close to $40/sheet was some that had been dinged up pretty badly and they wanted to get rid of it.I don't know how much plywood the Chinese are making, but I suspect that they can make it as good (or as bad) as they want. It's gonna depend on who's buying it from them and what they're specing out.
My point to this was that in my market there is little choice. I have never been motivated by price, that's not how I judge quality. But the market here is deciding on price over quality. As I said they had a more expensive birch ply but why would anything change except the top veneer. If this better ply was made from another source I might have tried it.
By quality I mean a well made product that meets industry standards. I don't think this current import meets those standards.
Unless industry standards allow for a sheet to bow immediatly after being ripped.
Yup some of that stuff is dangerous to rip as it squirmes past the blade. If you look at the plys they are overlapped instead of butted. no voids but they never sanded down the overlaps and they telegraph through.
as for good wood I used some Hope I get the name right Norecore. Birch veneer inside a osb inside core then aspen ply. try google its made in Canada. Cost $ but stable as heck. used some for my island in kitchen no problems in 5 years.
I also buy rough lumber,birch, pine, aspen, tamarack from a small mill dry and mill for under a buck a board foot. he almost gives away shorts and will keep the odd fiquired piece for me. Its worth the 6 hourreturn drive from a treeless plain to the forest edge. Happens to have a nice lake, campground, golf course half way. A good excuse for some time with my wife.
What, exactly, are "industry stnadards, anyway?? Are they written down somewhere? I've heard about them all of my life, but I've never seen a document titled "Industry Standards For <Whatever>".That's not to say that I've never dealt with regulations and standards. Eight years in the military and almost 20 years as a nuclear engineer left me on very close terms with Milspecs, NRC Standards, ASME Standards, etc.Everything that gets manufactured meets some kind of "standard" - either the manufacturers, or the purchasers. Those standards are typically based on the intended use of the product and nothing more. I had a really bad experience with some $35/sheet Home Depot birch ply a few years ago and they've been off of my radar for my cabinets ever since. No "industry standards" involved with that - just my own. - lol
There are several applicable in the US. There are also standards in Europe.
Here is a good link to the US ones: http://www.mcvicker.com/twd/gwdi97/page004.htm
The whole site is a compendium of references for use in designing with wood, and worth a look. http://www.mcvicker.com/twd/gwdi97/page000.htm
Many countries, including Canada, New Zealand, and Australia have good standards as does the European Union.
And many foreign manufacturers make their products to comply with the standards. Back at the start of the Iraq mess, (when the U S supply dried up to go to war), I used to by some really good plywood at Home Desperate and Lowers, made by Accura in South America, 19-ply 23/32-inch, exterior grade, that had compliance stamps for the US, Canada, and the EU on it. It was without a doubt some of the best softwood plywood I have ever bought. No voids, not knots, and glued tighter than anything else I have ever bought. I left part of a sheet out in the back by my shed, and after two weeks of the sprinklers running on it twice a day, and the sun baking it every day, all the laminations were still together. Just amazing stuff.
So, I know that good plywood can be imported.
The problem is that most retailers, and the importers that serve them are not insisting that the material bears an appropriate grade stamp.
It is up to us as purchaser to know the standards, and not buy the junk.
Your links actually make my point, Jigs. The term "Industry Standards" is meaningless all by itself. There is no overall, umbrella, "standard" for anything. Several groups, however, have established standards and it's these specific standards we need to be asking about when we shop for materials. If the quality of the product is important, we need to ask. If the seller can't (or won't) identify the specific standard(s) used to manufacture their products, then it's time to move on to someone who can, or will. Other than the entertainment value, asking about standards in a big box is obviously an exercise in futility. - lolAs far as grade stamps on cabinet grade plywood, I don't want to see one. If I'm paying $100+ for a sheet of A1 ply, I sure don't want to have to work around some stamp. - lol
I agree on the fact that we have the responsibility to educate us about the different standards that are out there, and then be sure we order wood that meets the standards. We also need to write down the manufacturing data before we make the first cut. So that if we have problems, we can get with the manufacturer, and sort out the problem.
There are several hundred manufacturers, with who knows how many plants, making plywood in China alone. Some are good, some are bad. It is usually reflected in the price.
As to grade stamping, you need to check the edges. It will frequently be on the edge as a string of text and a logo. Particularly if they intend to sell it in the European Union.
Depending on how void free the sheet is, and how sharp the blade is, it can be really clear, or so obscured as to be nearly worthless. When I was getting the Arauco stuff, it had a string of grade stamps, almost two feet long on it, (American, and EU), and about another foot that just identified the plant and shift.
Also, some of the plants put the grading, and plant identification only on the side of the bunk, particularly if it isn't really intended for the retail market. So, once the bands are broken you really can't tell anymore what it really is, and where it came from. I did a tour with a friend from college, who was the plant engineer, of one of the major manufacturers of the higher end cabinets for the big box stores. They got plywood in by the train load, and every bunk had the grading, and source data painted on the sides.
As far as grade stamps on cabinet grade plywood, I don't want to see one. If I'm paying $100+ for a sheet of A1 ply, I sure don't want to have to work around some stamp
Good point but it would be nice if they posted the certifications above the pile.
As to my profile being a bit devoid of info. There was a worrisome vague threat by a poster here a while back in my bigot tax thread. It got me to thinking how I might have to much info listed. But frankly it would take someone much effort to find me by a simple google.
I was just surprised at the time with there remark. I'll correct my profile later but I'm here in Tulsa.
I checked with a friend about a wood source like a company I used to use here. He pointed out while they left and went to Ark. they make weekly trips to Tulsa. A quick phone call to Plunkett Distributing reestablished my account ahd happy days are here again.
For anyone within the same issues Plunkett list there plywood standards on line and you can order through the site.
plunkettdistributing.com
"My point to this was that in my market there is little choice."You didn't say where you are and it's not in your profile so it's hard to make a recommendation but here in the Midwest Alpine Plywood, Boehm and a few others sell cabinet grade plywood to shops all over. I bought some of the "cabinet grade" birch at home depot and it did exactly what you described. The pieces I cut were as small as 18"x24" and they still turned into potato chips. I will never buy that cr-ap from HD again. I used that for a set of drawers in my garage and although they work, I would like them to have turned out better. I did use the material from Alpine for my kitchen cabinets and everything turned out great.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
buy green wood direct from a local sawmill. Air dry it out yourself, and build with solid wood.. chances are that will be cheaper than plywood without the hassle..
Locally I buy cherry for $1.65 a bd.ft. for FAS Birch is $1.25 Oak is $.80 hard maple is $1.85 etc.. so a 32 sq.ft. sheet of cherry will cost $52.80 white oak $25.60 etc..
Frenchy, did you forget which forum your on? Building with solid wood is great over in knots, (where most of the folks are hobbyists, or boutique artisans), but in breaktime, the folks are trying for a different aesthetic and a reasonable price point.
One could certainly build a set of kitchen cabinets out of solid woods. But, even if the wood were cheap as dirt, the increased time in dressing it, squaring it, and gluing it into panels would push the price out the roof, and the client would be buying top of the line cabinets from the big box for less than half of what a guy could charge, and make a living. Plus, despite what the "fine woodworking" guys may say, house hold cabinets are generally better suited for the application, and more durable when made from sheet goods.
I'm happy for you that you live where mill cut hardwoods can be purchased readily for a good price. Where I am, the only "local" woods, are Ponderosa Pine, Douglas Fir, and an occasional Tamarack, if I want to go over a river drainage. They are available only rough cut, and green.
The kiln was torn down, about fifteen years ago, when they ripped down the old saw mill to build a grocery store. So, if I want to work with local woods; I'm going to have to sticker, and stack them out of the weather, and wait four or five years, before I can start milling them into boards that could be used. Something that really isn't a viable option for a production shop.
Go to woodmiser and get their list of local woodmiser owners.. a lot of tree trimming companies buy them to turn backyard trees into marketable wood.. farmers buy them to convert the wood lot into something to profit by. Etc.
You'd be surprised once you really start digging. I know small sawmills where they still run the saw with an old Model A Ford engine.. it's back in an old building halfway out of town that nobody notices.. that sort of deal.
As for rough and green I did mention that you dry it.. and a planner isn't a terribly expensive piece of equipment to buy.. I've sold used Delta planners for as little as $50.00 simply because I bought a 20 inch planner from Grizzly (another good source of affordable tools)
over decades of use you'll have a few cents per cabinet in planning the wood..
You cannot compete with factories that punch out goods in volume. So why try? you can aways buy doors cheaper than you can make them, heck one local high volume cabinet shop sells surplus doors for $5.00 a pr. Pallets and pallets of them and periodically when they have too many they just set them outside the door and let people take whatever they want for free.
There is no way you can compete at that level. So don't bother trying!
Hopefully you've seen the pictures of my place that I'm building (if not go to 858791.1 & 94941.1 and scroll through the pictures I've posted) .. all of that was built with sawmill wood.. there is over 50,000 bd.ft. of hardwood in my home which I spent less than $25,000 dollars for.
Some of the wood there I've bought for 10 cents a bd.ft. because it had sat outside and turned black. (look at the raised panel wood in the guest bathroom. that's fiddleback maple! for 10 cents a bd.ft. I've seen that sort of wood sell for $450.00 for enough to make a violin from ) {which would have cost me about a quarter}
I've also provided my sister with plenty of Ash to make her flooring for the second floor. We started with 5/4 ash and by the time she paid to have it kiln dried and milled into flooring she had a little less than a dollar a sq.ft. in it..
Frenchy, you missed the point. Not all of us have access to hardwoods. They do not grow every where. All that grows around here, other than ornamentals in landscaping, is conifers.
I know the four guys in the two counties I move a round in that have mini-mills. I buy green, 4-inX14-inX14-ft Douglas Fir lumber from them by the truck loads for bridge decking. At least I do anytime the Forest Service lets them cut old enough trees to get the width.
I also know the the one guy with a large planer, and he would plane all of it I want for free if I asked.
Still doesn't give me a source for inexpensive hardwoods.
Edited 11/22/2008 2:38 pm ET by Jigs-n-fixtures
While that may be true for you,
That isn't the end of things.. Not unless you want it to be.. Myself if I were in your situation I'd figure out a way to either do a road trip or hire a semi to bring me a load of whatever I wanted..
I've a buddy who lives near San Diego. when I drive out to see him I pick up a load of whatever wood he'd like and while it's too much for his needs he's got a deal worked out with fellow woodworkers whereby my arrival is a real event for them.. the deal they've got is they each buy "shares" and when I arrive they draw numbers and based on that they get the fourth board I unload or the second etc.. then they sit and trade back and forth untill they are each satisfied. I used to think they'd all want the really wide boards I get from my sawmill (up to 22 inches wide unless they are using the really big blade when they get 26 inches wide) however often that's not the case. Anyhow everybody seems to go away extremely happy and enthusiatic and Joe doesn't ever have to make many calls to underwrite my next trip. (In fact he's got orders to get me here as often as I want to make the trip)
You could just call a sawmill and get prices you don't need my sawmill there are litterly thousands of sawmills around here and semi's travel every day of the week most would love a back haul load of lumber.
If you'd like me to do some leg work for you I can make a few calls on your behalf.
The point is that all hardwood probably has to be toted to you so you may as well cut out all the middlemen and buy direct from a place where the wood is reasonably priced..
"(if not go to 858791.1 & 94941.1 and scroll through the pictures I've posted)"
mon dieu, frenchy, extra 7 in there - should be 85891.1. - r
I appreciate the correction..
I agree with you sentiments. My cabinets are all solid wood except for the carcasses. I use plywood for this since I feel it makes a better stronger cabinet.
If it works for what you're doing, it may be worth the extra couple of dollars for MDF core. Just a thought.
See my work at TedsCarpentry.com
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Ya thought about that, but I sure hate the weight and dust. But, what ya gonna do?
A few discoveries supporting the issue of bad plywood.
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Problems_with_Chinese_Plywood.html
Edited 11/23/2008 10:06 am by jagwah