Ok, I realize that I am likely going to ask a really stupid set of questions so forgive me for being a real novice on this subject.
Out new house plans are being drawn up and they currently have a partial basement to house mechanicals/small interior work room/wine cellar/cold cellar. All builders that have looked at the plans have told us that a crawl space is required under the remainder of the house rather than slab on grade. We are in a heavy snow zone with lots of cold. The rationale is that the crawl space makes running mechanicals etc easier. I have heard this from all of the builders so they are consistent. (the heat is radiant floor fluid, the floor is finished concrete).
My question is this – if we are building a crawl space is there any reason not to go ahead an put a full basement instead? It would seem that they will dig 6 feet for a 4 feet crawl space so going another 6 feet for the full basement should be easy – and relatively cheap. The wall construction wiill be with ICF for the crawl space anyways and it seems that a basement is inexpensive space to create (assuming we don’t have to blast and we are positive that we will not have to).
So if faced with this question, would you suggest going to a full basement rather than a crawl space. The current basement is 700 sf and the proposed crawl space is another 1800 sf. So the total basement would be 2500 sf.
Thanks for you time
Mark MacLeod
Replies
Your reasoning is very good and you should probably go ahead and do the full basement as long as you can afford the additional cost. You're probably right that it won't add a great deal on a per square foot cost.
My last house had an area under the master bedroom and bathroom that was over a crawl space rather than a basement. If I had it to do over again, I'd have gone ahead and made it a full basement for the reasons you've already mentioned. Additionally, while the space wasn't really needed, that part of the house was always colder. I don't know for sure that it had anything to do with the crawl space, but always suspected that it didn't help the situation any.
Good luck with your new house.
>> ... is there any reason not to go ahead and put a full basement instead?
Only cost.
It is quite possible to build slab on grade in a cold climate. Search for frost protected shallow foundation or FPSF. Of course you do want a builder who's comfortable with that approach, and it sounds like there might not be any in your area.
Edited 1/1/2008 3:30 pm by UncleDunc
I built back in 89 & put a crawl space under just one room, a 12x14 livinvg room, "To Save Money"
What a dumb Azz thing to do, The Wife has not let it rest since. If money allows go with the full basement. We could really use the storage space, one of the decision factors for me at the time was the fact that the room above was sunken & there would be mechanicals hanging down, Still kicking my self for this short sightedness We still use the space for storage but it is the area from hell. I keep talking myself out of digging it out to a full basement each year, in fact I just had this fight a few days ago.
Paul
No one should regard themselve as "God's gift to man." But rather a mere man whos gifts are from God.
What a dumb Azz thing to do, The Wife has not let it rest since. If money allows go with the full basement. We could really use the storage space, one of the decision factors for me at the time was the fact that the room above was sunken & there would be mechanicals hanging down, Still kicking my self for this short sightedness We still use the space for storage but it is the area from hell. I keep talking myself out of digging it out to a full basement each year, in fact I just had this fight a few days ago.
A couple times when looking at an old house with a crappy basement, I've been tempted to buy it with the thought of renting a Bobcat or somesuch and digging a ramp from the outside and punching through the foundation and thereby using the Bobcat to dig the basement out to a proper height.
But haven't done it yet. Not going to do it on the current house.
jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
My Dad did a exisiting full basement replacement on a large, two story, two family house. They cribbed up the house, removed the basement, replaced the footing & re-used most of the block. This entire project was done in the winter & turned out well but what a pain in the back. This project was done back in the late 60's & is still standing well. I don't think I will tackel my project, I don't think it would pay off.
Paul. No one should regard themselve as "God's gift to man." But rather a mere man whos gifts are from God.
"t would seem that they will dig 6 feet for a 4 feet crawl space so going another 6 feet for the full basement should be easy - and relatively cheap."
I'm a little confused about your numbers.
Fro a 4' crawl, you will need to dig maybe 4'.
Even if you have to dig 6', as you have stated, you would not need an additional 6'. Basements can be 7' 2" so you would need to dig an additional 3'6" or maybe a little more if you intend to finish it.
In any event, I don't believe that there is any reason that your builders couldn't put the slab in. At least none that I know of.
I'd put the basement in though. There are many reasons for it and very few against it other than the pennies that it will cost you.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
ok - some clarifications.The dig for the crawlspace requires 4 feet walls plus the footings so my guess is 6 feet max. As far as the total depth for a basement, one of my personal beefs in housing is basements that feel like bunkers. I have never figured out why people dig a minimum basement when the cost of an extra 2 or 3 feet to give a reasonable height basement seems negligible.Cost is not the issue here. I am convinced that the cost of the extra depth for the basement, the extra time and materials in the overall cost of the house will be relatively small. Out architect seems anti basement for reasons unknown to me so the question is really is there any reason (enginerring, function, things I have not thought of) to not have a full depth basement? If we have a basement do we need a separate egress from the basement other than the stairwell from the main floor (I know I need to look at our local code for this) We are not planning on finishing the space in the basement.
Your footing for a stem wall will be about 10" deep, not several feet. Fire your architect if he can't give you a one minute explanation about why basements are out of the equation.Your feelings regarding basement depths are personal. If the basement is going to be storage, then a bunker is perfect. If it's going to be used as living or entertaining space, then of course a higher ceiling is in order and you are right, it's a very cheap change order. If I were putting in a basement, I'd include the egress well that are very common nowadays. It's a safety issue even if your local codes don't require it. The life you save may be yours. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"is there any reason (enginerring, function, things I have not thought of) to not have a full depth basement? "Climate, soil conditions, and water table levels are all things steer to or away from basements.Since you are in a cold climate and already are planing on a partial basement apparently the soil and water conditions are "reasonable". Based on that I would do the full basement.In general the code does not require a 2nd method of egress for a basement, but do require one directly from an space that is finished for a bedroom.But some local amendements figure that the basement are going to be at least partially finished for some purposes, and often without permits, and are require a 2nd exit from the basement..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Mark,
If you're in a cold climate and the frost line is 48-in. down and you have, say, 24-in. of foundation sticking above the grade, you don't have to go down too much further to get a basement. I've always assumed that that's why basements are so prevalent in the North and crawlspaces so common in the South. People have different tastes and different priorities. As for me, I absolutely despise crawlspaces. They're filthy, confined spaces and I resent every hour--every minute--that I've worked in them. I would only build a new house on a crawlspace if I had to (because of water table issues, for example) In my own house, I've been gradually converting my crawlspace to a basement, digging by hand. There are some pictures of my project at 73774.8.
Go with full basement if cost and excavation risk aren't issues. The extra few feet is costly, however. Why? Because you have to get rid of the excavated material which is often quite expensive (depending on your location). Your architect may be concerned about what might be encountered and your overall budget - and rightly so.
I don't understand your statement about the first floor being concrete if crawl space or basement - can you clarify?
Jeff
Cost it out both ways and get back to with the results. Or, get a local basement contractor who does ICF to cost it out. It's not gonna be a few thousand - I can tell you that.
As far as making basement walls extra tall be aware that in conventional basement construction like masonry or concrete the thickness of the walls increases as the height of unbalanced fill increases - In other words if you have a basement wall with 9' of dirt on one side and nothing on the other side, the thickness of the wall will increase to say 10" - as opposed to a basement wall say with 7' of dirt on one side and nothing on the other side which might require a wall thickness of 8". These numbers change for different soil types - that is why I can't give you hard numbers. Of course with ICF foundations obviously everything changes but I would guess that the same concept applies - so check with your ICF manufacture before going too far down this path of a 10' or 11' high basement. "Unbalanced fill" is the key term you need to find out about.
First off, it's not a given that you can't have a slab (we have them here, and it's currently -4F), but integrating a slab with a partial basement is a problem -- they'll want to go different directions.
Since you have to go down some number of feet for foundation anyway, going a little deeper and making it a basement is economically logical, if you have use for the space, and you don't have serious groundwater issues.
Here, where groundwater is commonly a concern, an equally popular setup is the "split entry", where the bottom floor is about 4 feet below ground level and the "main" floor is raised a similar amount. (The entry door comes in to up and down staircases, hence the "split".)
Be sure that provisions are made for drain tile and radon mitigation. This should be done even for crawls.
Just a little note: Find out where the main electrical lines (the PoCo mains, not your feed to the house) and the main sewers lie. They are most often buried 5-6' deep. Their presence could really complicate a dig.
Thanks again everyone.The soil contains clay and sand. There is loose glacial till in the soil and we are building on the top of a small hill (drumlin). This is new construction and there are no services in the area (a 150 acre farm so we can be away from everyone - where is my squirrel rifle). Bedrock is way down . . . . a drilled well on the site had no bedrock at 55 feet.Thanks for the info on wall width . . . again something I had not thought of. the additional concrete costs will no doubt add up.Just as an aside, are there average costs per foot depth of basement or excavation. SEcondly, when you sub machine work, what do you find the range of costs are for excavation, dozer work etc.As far as depth of the crawl space, all of the builders recommended a 4 foot depth. The house is at grade and the 4 foot depth reaches below frost line. The depth provides room to work in. However, I, like others, find crawl spaces grim to be in (my claustrophobia aside). The floor of the house will be finished concrete with radiant heat. The house is one level.Thanks again for your thougtful responses.
No profile. Where?
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Where do I find my profile to provide the information?We are in Ontario, building on the south shore of Georgian Bay.
Click on your handle ("To:" line above), then select "Change Profile".
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Then I'm very interested to hear how you are doing true concrete slab with crawl space/basement below. Steel deck with pour? Ca$t-in-place? Concrete beam$??
Jeff
This is new construction and there are no services in the area (a 150 acre farm so we can be away from everyone - where is my squirrel rifle). Bedrock is way down . . . . a drilled well on the site had no bedrock at 55 feet.
OK, my dream home would be located in the middle of 100 acres... and keeping the neighbors far enough away that I don't hear their dogs or lawnmowers. You got 150?! I'm jealous! ;) Doesn't sound like disposing of excavation material is an issue for you.
The soil contains clay and sand. There is loose glacial till in the soil and we are building on the top of a small hill (drumlin).
Mark, if this is going to be a house you're going to live in for a while, I'd say the basement is worth the $$. A lot of the new houses hereabouts have 9' ceilings in the basement with window wells for egress (some of 'em look about like a well Timmy would have fallen down). We're also in tornado country, so a 'tornado room' is occasionally added too.
So run the numbers and see what it looks like. jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
Yes we are going to live in it for a while - I am planning on being pulled cold from the place.Seriously, we are intent on doing this right the first time - we are not wanting to do again.
Seriously, we are intent on doing this right the first time - we are not wanting to do again.
That is a good starting point, but keep in mind that unless you've built several houses already, you will never be able to think of everything. Hindsight is always 20/20, so don't get yourself too worked up with perfection. You will eventually hit a point where you will want to put items in catagories of "we need to take care of now" and "we can always change that in the future". IMHO, the basement decision would be in the first group. Sounds like you're on top of it.
You should keep us updated once your project starts. Might make for an interesting thread.
jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
Edited 1/2/2008 5:40 pm by JohnT8
Edited 1/2/2008 5:40 pm by JohnT8
Or you can always be a weirdo like me. (No comments needed from the peanut gallery)I have a house built on a slab on grade AND a basement..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
typically hereabouts, going from crawlspace to basement is one of the bigger bangs for the buck. That is assuming you're not dealing with a high water table.
jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
The high water table still wouldn't be a deterrant. I lived in a house where the sump pump kicked on every fifteen minutes, every day that I lived there for 20 years. I've also framed houses on sites that needed two sump pumps to keep the water out of the footing drains. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I lived in a house where the sump pump kicked on every fifteen minutes, every day that I lived there for 20 years.
On the street with my project house are a few of the 9' basement houses. In this small village, they allow 'em to pump the sump right into the street gutter. And those things pump from about March to August. I can't help but wonder what happens if the power goes out for a few days and you' don't have a generator to keep those pumps a chuggin'
And on an unrelated side note, I can't understand why those folks pay to run a pump to push water into the street...and then pay for city water to water their lawns with. Seems like at some point the little light bulb would go off. jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
In MI, we pumped all the water into a french drain.If power goes out, the water will fill up the drain system and eventually start rising in the basement. That happened to me when the sump burned out and I didn't notice it till I was walking in water. We replaced the pump without incident.They make pumps with alarms. They are simple float alarms, like the sump pump switches. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I'll echo going with the full basement. I've lived in houses with both and a basement is the least expensive living space you can create. If you can afford it, go with a basement. Besides, eventually you will need to do some home improvement-related work down there.It's a lot easier on a short ladder than it is crunched under a beam that's about 2 inches lower than it needs to be to keep your neck from hurting.
Unless you do some insulation work down thereas well, though, it will be perfect for a wine and root cellar and it will stay noticeably colder than the rest of the house. Especially where you are. Search for the threads about insulating basements for more details.
Can I add a question here. I am planning the construction of a new cottage by a lake in upstate New York. Can anyone give me a good reason why I shouldn't skip a foundation altogether and build on posts. I was thinking of using those "bigfoot" systems, putting the beams on that and just insulating the floor like crazy. It seems like this will be much cheaper and much easier. Any thoughts? Oh - and yes, I would like to use it year-round, but probably won't come to often in the winter.
They build on posts here. I think it's the craziest thing unless you are hitting bedrock with them. The posts dont have enough footprint to spread the load of the house out other wise. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
They build on posts here. I think it's the craziest
LoL! Wait until you come across one on 3 courses dry-laid block "posts" sitting on a 2" "footing" pad . . .
I want to know how they framed, what with tipping off the top block getting the rim joist started . . .
"They don't build'em like they used to" Sometimes thankfully so.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
No reason not to, but not necessarily cheaper. Depends a lot on soil conditions.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
I've build a couple of houses that way. They are fine structurally. The problems I found were in insulating and finishing the underside.
You have to situate the house higher than you would if it were on a foundation to give yourself room to work underneath. This means several steps at the entries.
It is difficult to run all your plumbing within the insulated joist bays so that it is susceptible to freezing especially where it enters or exits the building.
Applying plywood to the underside of the floor is an awful job which has to be done very tightly to avoid rodents. It is much easier if you get your plumber to rough-in as little as he has to before sheathing so you aren't working around straps and horizontal runs.
Having said all this, I know it is done frequently in New England. I remember Piffin saying that a lot of the cottages around him are built that way.
Thanks - that is very helpful.
If it were me, I'd go with a full basement if the budget would handle it. I'd also go with taller basement walls, again if the budget would handle it.
It's great space for storage or a workshop, providing it's dry. Keep a dehumidifier going in the summer if it's humid where you are, and it will be the most comfortable place in the house to be on those hot dog days.
No brainer, as long as the water table allows, put in the basement. You'll never regret it. Especially at resale time.
definately full basement, where else will you put the workshop?
It takes studs to build a house
where else will you put the workshop
He's got 150 acres. I was thinking his next project would be to put up a 40x80' "workshop". Of course he has to keep dw happy and get the house done first :)
jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
Yeah, but that workshop will be freezing cold in winter and insufferable in the summmer. The basement will be pleasantly cool all year round.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Yeah, but that workshop will be freezing cold in winter and insufferable in the summmer. The basement will be pleasantly cool all year round.
Well that's project 3 and 4. Heat source for winter and some AC in summer.
Just think of all the fun things you can drive/pull into a pole barn that you can't get down the steps to the basement. And if there's two feet of snow outside, dw won't want to trek outside to tell you to stop playing, whereas if you're in the basement, she'll shout down the steps. Ergo, a pole barn workshop equates to more play time and more toys :)
jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
LOL
It takes studs to build a house
Ah oddly enough, the workshop goes up first. That building has the garage for trucks and tractor (snowmoving machine really), the shop, and what will be guest quarters eventually. The first structure does a couple of things. It can allow us to get there if we have to for a year or two . . . . and it gets us there on weekends and short stays before that. It also gives us a test run with the builder as we are building in an area that we don't know. Although the 4 firms we are down to now (started with 10 references) all seem like people we would and could work with.The second structure is the real house . . . . and it will be a bigger job.Yeah, it's complicated but we don't buy a big pile of debt all at once, we get there sooner, and we make life more interesting. . . . what could be better.
OK, now I AM jealous! Not only do you have the perfect setup, but you've cleverly convinced the dw that the playroom...um, I mean the "workshop" has to be built first. If you have classes on your technique, sign me up!
Yeah, it's complicated but we don't buy a big pile of debt all at once, we get there sooner, and we make life more interesting
Robbing tomorrow of its joys trying to pay for today's garbage, debt is a festering disease best avoided if at all possible. jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
Of course you already knew this, but the basement ceiling must be high enough to allow swinging a five iron freely so you can hit balls into a net during the winter months!Also, put in an outside entrance even if its a bilco door stairwell. We didn't have one on the original house. Built an addition with a full basement where we included it and it's the bee's knee's. Great for kids & dog to come in from outside all mudded & snowed up, great for bringing in the coal for the coal stove in the basement, etc, etc, etc. Its nice to have the extra wide steps to get stuff down there rather than bringing it through the upstairs living area.
Thanks everyone for your input. I've spoken at lenght to the engineer and he thought we were a bit stupid not putting in a basement. So - we will have a 10 foot basement. The gym goes down there, and we reclaim some space on the mezannine. thanks alot, problems seems solved.mark
Mark,
Since you are on a hill/ sloping lot, maybe a daylight or walk out basement? A few window's and a door can help with the "Dungeon" feeling of a basement. And let in a lot of natural light. I built a spec house last fall and the cost of framing/ insulating the walkout was about the same as pouring more concrete. I would never consider a crawl space or slab in this area, and I am sure your area is colder. During the long winters it's nice to have a place for hobbies, kid's/grandkids's to play and storage.
I was never planning on leaving my first house, and was putting up the last few pieces of trim just before we sold it. And the walk out basement added a lot of value.
Maybe it would work with whatever style of house your building.
Northeastvt
Do da basement.
Here in Seattle area, don't think any of the builders put in a basement, realators and contractors both have flat out told me there is not sufficient profit margin in adding a basement.
One house in an adjacent McMansion area (3500 sq ft houses on 4000 sq ft lots) had to dig 6 ft deep due to a clay lens on the lot. Those turkeys put in 8 foot walls and then BACKFILLED the whole thing - what a waste.
Own house does have a basement, very few built here since the 60s have a basement, you get a basement here only if you build it yourself.