My question is just that.
Has anyone gotten into a job, only to learn it is either impossible or impractible?
My case in point. I have a deposit and “contract” with a church to refinish some windows (interior only),, after experimenting for a week I find that it is pointless to continue, the problem is more or less…unsolveable.
I have a clause, that I could raise the price, but STILL…I can’t achieve the results I had hoped for without a total rebuild (which would cost more than new windows).
I am about to report my findings/feelings and offer them the remainder of the deposit to be relieved of the job. The results I have obtained in this experimental first sash, is NOT up to my level of quality…and I feel I’d rather have them aware of my standards and integrity than just pass off this as “finished product”..
I suppose I could offer a comprimise of some sort..but I don’t want anyone unfamiliar with the process to think “man, that sucks..” when they see the out come.
My gut says “bail ….save face” My heart says “give it your best for the dollar, let them accept what has been done” My brain and wallet says ” do, something else that PAYS”.
Where do YOU draw the line? This is a tuff situ. I have not been in (other than the one’s where ya KNOW yer eating your own shorts..) and being kinda new to the area , first impressions are important.
Would they likely to feel secure that I know when to say when, or do ya think they’d veiw it as a way to propose all new windows?
This is a church commitee (of which I do not attend, just came as a recommendation from a friend) and I also am the second dog…they had a “quote” from another guy , approved it..he bailed before he began..LOL…shoulda told me sumptin huh?
Any thoughts?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Replies
can't really advise you but here is what I think you'll end up doing.
going to them explaining the situation and possibly backing off.
my impression is that church comitees are hard to work with because they confuse the church structure with God.
another situation you have here is a customer with a situation that they don't know how to get fixed. and I think you want to help them, why i used the word possibly.
best of luck
_____________________________
bobl Volo, non valeo
Thanks Bob (was good to meet you also) I just read my post again and realized I invented a Non-word..lol 'impractible' what the hell is that?
I dunno, how to approach it yet...kinda funny when I might say "it's an act of GOD kinda thing, and I ain't him (today)"
I guess I better do something soon tho' I have been FU'ing with this window for a week...( not full time, but in my possession) at 150.00 per window...that don't fly...LOL
Thanks for your views.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
I don't see you bailing!
I think that you are using the wrong term.
Even before I got to the punch line this was I was hearing you say.
1. The problems with the windows are worse then appeared before I disaseembled them. I can repair them, but the expesnse would be much higher than was first realized and probably not practical.
2. I can finish them at the orginal price, but the quality would be less than what I like and the life expentancy of the repairs would be much less than what you would like.
3. Or I can refund the deposite and recommend that you purchase replacement windows.
I can do any one of these, but I strongly recommend the 3rd option.
I like what Bill said. Give an impression of giving options as well as showing your standards. Best of both worlds. I would add that I could supply the replacement windows. DanT
I like what he said too...IF this was a "restoration" historical...I would have insisted on more $$$...and remade the M&M's/glazing...but it's not.
I would rather not R&R the windows...I can't even get a supplier to call me back for another job that is R&R of windows..WTF?
Just maybe...I'll find some supplier that will get me NEW sash..less than what my refinish cost is....riiiiiggghhht...LOL
No, I FU'd on this one...just wanna be away from anybody getting a hackle raised...before it happens.
Thanks too...
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
I say backout like Bill said, but don't push the alternatives too hard cause they will just think you are trying to sell 'em something extra. Maybe don't even offer 'em up right away. You will probably need to eat the time thus far invested, but if you continue with the job, you will probably end up hating every minute of it.
When you first posted about this job - can't remember the specifics, I thought "better him than me".
Matt
I've seen some pics of your work (awesome work by the way) and suggest you haul them out when you approach the committee with the following explanation. "I've spent a week and x amount of money working these windows with everything short of miracles. I'd love to be able to report I found a viable repair but I can't even get to a reasonable result with all the methods I've tried thus far. I'm out of ideas. Please understand this isn't how I conduct my business but in all fairness, I won't do any more to these windows and try to pass off a substandard job. Here is your money." Then, if they have questions, go on to explain about the original quality of the windows and how too much time has passed with too much damage having already been done to make a competent repair. Just tell them the truth.
A visual inspection at the onset couldn't have brought you to this conclusion. You had to get into the job to find it's simply not doable. I'd think they would appreciate your honesty and integrity to tell them the hard truth rather than bs-ing them and doing work that will sit in your gut like a bad egg and their minds like they'd been fleeced by a handy hack. Apologize if necessary but you haven't done anything wrong to be sorry about. You thought it could be done but have learned otherwise through the process of trying to make the repairs. $hit happens, even in churches and parsonages...
I think you need to remain the expert and the guy who can solve the problem, not become a guy who said he could and then bailed. Write up a summary of the methods you used to test the first sash, and why the results are not acceptable. Then, price out a couple of options for them: paint the existing, replace the existing with new sash. Give them those two choices, and make them bail on you instead of you bailing on them. Write the whole thing up as a proposal so that a committee can read it and think about it instead of just reacting to your verbal spiel and deciding. Bring the sash you worked on as evidence. They will probably decide on one of your options.
If you told them in advance that it would be no problem, then you've got some backpedaling to do, and that will make it trickier, but you can do it... maybe eat a little humble pie.
I agree. The exception would be option two..it is not life expectancy, more visual acceptance.
With out writing a diatribe, the stains WILL NOT come out, short of replacing the muntims and mullions, there is no hope...I have tried 4 different bleaching/abrading combos...none any good.
I can offer to PAINT the sash...but, they are heart set on natural finish to match trim..btw, this is the parsonage, not the church proper.
I really thought/felt it would clean up, no dice. Old (1960) single pane..sweat/cond...ruined the sticking.
I have spent a bunch on "stuff" for the restoration, which I can absorb, but the thought that these are crappy windows to begin with, is what I can't swallow.
BTW..a pound of oxalic acid is 30 bucks...and sanding 6 over 6 M and M's is a bitch with glass installed.
You do have a good point tho'...now mebbe I'll gather up the balls to say it. Umm, I do NOT want to replace the windows, they are in brick walls, with alum already wrapping the brickmould..I don't need the work right now..got a full plate.
I do appreciate the help, thanks.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Duane,
I was Trustees President for a Methodist Church for 5 years. This stuff happens.
I think Bill H. has the right idea. You may want to actually attend the next Board Meeting, so that you can clearly explain your situation, and possibly offer some alternatives.
I just did some Marvin Tilt Pacs, 6over6 Insulated True Divided Lites, I think they were like 50 x 30 inches or so.....they came in over $700.00 a piece.
So I'm thinking.......Marvin will make anything you want. 6over6 non insulated Sim. Divided Lites, or even grilles (yuk). Just threw that out as it may be doable$ wisw. Marvin makes nice stuff. Perhaps a local supplier would like to get on board and offer a nice discount and get a write up in the local paper?
Good luck,
Eric
Every once in a while, something goes right!
This is a church commitee
Major danger. Have a good friend here who's in charge of both church and parsonage. He knows that I sometimes do magic. But that's a whole world apart from dealing with a church commitee. Easier when a non-member, as I am.
I gracefully decline offers. Advice is free, as it's the only church in the tiny community here. I also give some free machine time, like digging the footings for a new parsonage bath. Even contributed the installation of a parsonage alarm system after a large problem. I've found it's far better to give the time, if you're comfortable with some community service, that to work below your norm.
That you underestimated the difficulty, compounds the problem. Only if there are worthy parisioners with future commissions, would I go forward. Then it's called advertising. And you still would have to deal with the underestimation. Whatever you do, DON'T compromise your quality.
Good luck.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I don't understand the problem with dealing with a church committee. As in most things in life, not all church committees (I assume we're talking Trusttee committee) are difficult to work for/with. Maybe I'm biased, as I am on one. We meet once a month and plan out what needs to be done. If works develops that we cannot handle or don't have the time for, the Chairman contacts the appropriate contractor. Just a one-on-one type of thing.
BTW, 40% of my annual income comes from the church family. Just a plug for those guys who are looking for referrals. Members see the work we do around the church (we rarely contract out, too expensive) and ask if I can come over and build them a deck.
I know not all churches are like that, but the fact remains, Sphere, you have an opportunity to showcase your talents to an audience that quite often are looking for good, trustworthy labor, and they more often than not would pay higher for the priviledge.
Just my .02 worth.I never met a tool I didn't like!
When I worked at an engineering firm 12 years or so ago I was a field rep. Thats the guy that goes to the job designed by the firm and makes the desicions on the stuff on paper that won't work, and he makes it work.
Of the 4 guys in the field department none wanted to work with a church board. Why? They are usually staffed with nice folks that want to build something for nothing. And on every church board there is one or two guys that built their own screened in porch 20 years ago so they know about construction and its costs.
Then to top it off most church boards don't have one person to meet with or that has the authority to make a desicion during construction. Soooo..........each time a board member comes on the job site he makes some small changes to suit his knowledge and vision. Then another comes along and makes a few more, some of which contradict the former changes. I have seen this situation at least a dozen times.
We designed a new A/C system for a church in the town I live in. The design had an estimated cost of 260k. They said it was too expensive so we redesigned it. Using some old equipment we got it down to 165k. Still too expensive and no they didn't want any field consultation. Too expensive. They took our design and worked with a member that owned a residential HVAC shop and modified it to save money.
Next they weren't happy with the results so I became elected to meet with the board and find out the problem. (my home town) They had modified the design extensively and now had so much air noise they had to turn up the volume on the sound system to be heard, which was the too loud when the system shut down. And they wanted to know what we were going to do about it. I of course explained it wasn't our design and we didn't feel responsible at all. The HVAC guy himmed and hawed around about the issues were from the part we designed etc. etc.
I have worked on a church in my own business but always say the only way I will do so is to have one point of contact who carries the authority to make a small call and is the guy that goes to the board for desicions. Thats why no one wants to work with church boards. I am sure yours is different but trust me you are in the minority. DanT
I don't understand the problem with dealing with a church committee.
It's "decision by committee" that's more difficult in my experience. Probably with you on the committee it's a lot easier. I've found far more unrealistic expectations with church committees than anywhere else. And not uncommon for nearly every member to want a price on their perceived best method.
My friend was always trying to steer work my direction, partly to be nice to me, but also in confidence that things would work out well. You're absolutely correct that there's a pool of potential clients there. I already knew everybody in this church, tiny community. As you say, it's a very good way for a newcomer to get started.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Thank you all for the fantastic, fantastic advice...I really mean it.
I spoke with the head of the commitee and he also happens to be my roofing customer..that's how I got the reference for the windows.
He looked at the window and said " quit being such a perfectionist, that's fine looking and better than it was, what the hells your problem with that?" LOL...he is a funny guy.
When we realized this was the worst of 30 sash, we decided to just do as good as I can, and live with it. He also said to up my cost if I need to. I politely declined.
Seems I thought they would expect a "perfect" job, and I was wrong..he/they just want an improvement. Go figgure.
Thanks again...y'all had some good advice.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Well that speaks very well of you. And of them.
SHG
I don't mean to be cynical...The committee is fixing up the parsonage to keep a new or existing pastor happy. Depending on pastor turnover they might not have to keep him happy that long. So they want a lower-budget improvement rather than a major showpiece. If it were the church sanctuary, that the public sees, they might be fussier and willing to part with a few more bucks, from a "greater glory of God/marketing" standpoint. (Which is o.k with me, BTW; I'm not dissing Christians, since I am one, and understand all too well how spiritual values can get mixed up with temporal values.)
Plus most churches don't have huge building/maintenance budgets, a real concern.
most churches don't have huge building/maintenance budgets, a real concern.
Amen, brother
I never met a tool I didn't like!
I don't understand the problem with dealing with a church committee
That's probably because good church commitees are like good customers--they are worth their weight in gold.
Best church job, a nice paint all the common areas. Point of contact, the "facilities" deacon.
Worst church job, add a wedding chapel with attendant remodeling. Point of contact, the church Building Committee. Said committee being only one of 7 "running" the church. Building committee had three "chairs" and 15 members (swuft, size a committe to deadlock in even thirds). Five of the memebers, other than the three chairs, fancied themselves experienced in the building persuasion. No fun like having eight bosses, each with differing (and often opposing) agenda . . .
Wound up subbing the entire job out (warned the subs, too). All I was doing was sending them invoices. This went on for a while. Then they pulled a "fast" on on me and started paying the subs direct. Woo, was I crushed, they took a stinker job away from me, and were happy about it.
Bitter? Why yes, I'll take a pint <g> . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Okay, I'll admit occaissionally church committees can be a royal pain; I've even experienced it, though only with the Finance committee (get a group together where each one has a strong opinion on how to spend the tax-free dollars and sit back and watch the sparks fly). The other church projects I have done or proposed projects to (outside of my own church,) I've stipulated that there would be a sole point of contact; if anyone had any other input other than than that individual during the project, they were politely told to speak to so-and-so. That's why we require that the chairman of our Trustee Committee be the sole individual to contrtact out any work that needs to be done. And no, I'm not the chairman; that could be perceived as a conflict of interest, so I declined. (My company name is NOT Haliburton, lol.)
I never met a tool I didn't like!
Is it possible you could just replace the sash without replacing the frames and jambs? You might have to go with single light and add a grill. Brosco is the distributor up here I would contact for technical assistance. You can still get Boston/New York layout replacement sash, they can be ploughed for spring balances or Tilt n clean. Low E too.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match