I am working with a client to some major repairs to here house. New roof, HVAC, water heater, structural improvements, new floors, etc.
She is taking out a home improvement loan to cover the expense of the project. I fill out several pages of documents to make the bank happy. I requested that the bank provide me copies of any all documents that I must sign at closing a day or so earlier so I can review them prior to closing and address any concerns I may have.
The banker proceeds to tell me”We never provide contract documents prior to closing”. You will receive them at closing no sooner. I ask why this is so. She has no reason-just we do not do it that way. So I informed her that the closing will probably be delayed a day or two because when they provide me with the documents, I will get up and go to my office and I will read every line of the document I will be signing and I am sure your client, the homeowner will not be happy-but I will let you tell her that.
Why is so farging hard to get a bank to release a contract document they expect me to sign?? It is not the first loan they have ever done.
Sorry for the rant.
Bruce
Replies
They are probably not going to let you walk out of the bank with a copy. After all they are the banks property until you sign.
If you are that concerned, show up with a lawyer.
They better give me a copy of something I have signed especially if that document as all banks documents has me indemnifying the bank, all the tellers, the bank janitor, and the president's third cousin.
It just seems ridiculous that they are not willing to email me the generic forms that they expect me sign. What a waste of everyone's time.
Yes, I am concerned about these documents as they control when and how I get my money. I had one bank closing where we negotiated a draw schedule that left 10% retainage at the end of the project. They wanted to add an additional 10% at each draw. This was a 750,000 project. 20% was 150k until then of the project. You bet I am concerned.
Bruce
better give me a copy of something I have signed especially if that document as all banks documents has me indemnifying the bank, all the tellers, the bank janitor, and the president's third cousin. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Didn't say they wouldn't give you a copy.
If you are so concerned, do as Mike suggests!
They better give me a copy of something I have signed especially if that document as all banks documents has me indemnifying the bank, all the tellers, the bank janitor, and the president's third cousin.
This is the sentence in question. Why would you ever think the lender would not give you a copy of something you signed? Dumb statement."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Eddie,
Have you ever read and signed a bank contract associated with a construction project as the general contractor?
All I asked from the LENDING INSTITUTION was a copy of the documents I would be signing so I could review them before closing so it could be an effecient event.
Reviewing a contract should not be such a burden on those required to sign the contract. They will not show me the contract until closing. That is dumb.
Bruce
Edited 11/7/2009 10:16 am by Hiker
He who has the money makes the rules!
What bank?
University Credit Union
Will they let you review sample documents in their conference room?
They have to let you read them so I would just proceed to be cordial about it and read every word right then and there.
Bring a thermos of coffee and when they hand you the contract, pour a cup, offer some to the others at the table and laugh and say,
"Heh, heh, brought myself some coffee as this might take a while. Sorry to take up so much of your folks valuable time but Mrs Bank Officer said you don't send these out ahead of time so my attorney said to read them all carefully before I sign...should only take me 30-40 minutes to do so"....and start reading!
Everyone is so impatient these days I bet they say "Mr Contractor why don't you take your copy home and read it and come back tomorrow".
The banker said these documents are not even generated until the morning of the closing. We are closing at 10 am. I also asked her for a generic version just so I could see the points being addressed-No can do.
That seems unreasonable that they won't allow you to review the documents prior to your signature.
These types of documents should really be considered part of the contract between you and the owner.
I'd ask someone with more authority than who you spoke to at the bank.
I guess the good thing is you are getting a job out of it!
I have done about 4-6 large estimates in the last 6 months and the folks couldn't find anyone to finance the $50-75k jobs so they couldn't do them which means I didn't get the work at all...
We will get a job out of it and that is a good thing.
I opened this discussion with an open mind, but as I read to the end I have to admit that you p!ssed me off. Very key point: you're dealing with a credit union, not a bank. They operate with different regulatuions than banks. Get your facts right.
Maybe if you make it easy for the lender they would work with you. Offer to go to the CU and sit in their conference room and read blank copies of the forms. If the person you are dealing with refuses, ask to speak with the local president, or whatever the call the head person.
And I agree with a point someone else made, they did not refuse to give you a document you signed. Sounds like you're not relating the story correctly.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
What a strange thing to get annoyed about. So it's a Credit Union, how does that alter what happened? And who are you agreeing with that "they didn't refuse to give you the document you signed"? I can't seem to find that post - not that he was cmplaining about that anyway.
Trust me. There's a difference. I learned a long time ago. Never mention one in front of the other. And if you confuse the two in their presence. (Call a bank a credit union while standing in the bank, or vice versa) Pack up your tools and leave.
Who are you people? And why am I strapped to the bed?
Sure but what makes the story any different? He's describing the way he's being treated by the financiers. Doesn't make much difference whether they are bankers, relatives or the mob, they are being unreasonable.
I'm thinking that he pretty much used "bank" the same way one would use "kleenex" when talking about a scott, or any other brand, facial tissue...It's all fun and games, until someone puts an eye out..You are always welcome at Quittintime
No there is a bigger difference. They both look down on each other. Credit unions don't have to play by the same rules and it makes it harder for banks to compete. That and credit unions are non profit for the most part. Ed can explain it better.
Who are you people? And why am I strapped to the bed?
Credit unions aren't non-profit. They are owned by their members who share the profits like bank shareholders do. My credit union sent me a couple of hundred bucks last year - which just about offset their service fees.
I have no doubt there's a difference. I know there's a big difference.What I am saying is that the OP was concerned with getting his point across... The 'differences' between banks and credit unions was not even a part of his thought process.He said bank, because that was what came off the top of his head. Just like you would say kleenex, when discussing problems you are having with a cold... because the difference between actual "Kleenex" and any other 'facial tissue', is not a part of your thought process. You are trying to make a point about the problems you are having with a cold.If I then came along and told you I was really pissed because you had called your scott brand facial tissue a kleenex... What would be your reaction ?..It's all fun and games, until someone puts an eye out..You are always welcome at Quittintime
Whatever. BTW watch the potty mouth.
Who are you people? And why am I strapped to the bed?
Ooooh. A little "Mod on Mod" action. I'm slightly aroused...........copper p0rn
Who's making the popcorn !!
I received a two week timeout for less than that. I always knew there was a double standard and that little exchange is proof.
When were you given a two week timeout for less then that?
Who are you people? And why am I strapped to the bed?
Ok, to all:Gunner and I have had a talk about this.He pointed out that what I said, was one of the 'seven deadly words' that George Carlin listed.I have to admit, even though I read the list a while back, it never stuck with me that that word was on the list. It's not a word that I have ever thought of as a cussword. I used the word, because that is the word that was used in the example, in this very thread, that I was referring to.It is obviously not censored.But Rick is absolutely right.Now that I am aware of it, I want to apologize to Rick, (Gunner), and to anyone else who was offended by it...It's all fun and games, until someone puts an eye out..You are always welcome at Quittintime
It's alright Luke. I had the fealing the post from Gunner was in jest.
It shouldn't have been in jest and there should have been a timeout based on past happenings on this site. Of course, since there are different standards for different groups of people, this didn't, and wont, happen.
I agree, especially when he pointed out to us to use the Carlin 7 words as a guide as what not to say!
Are you gonna suspend yourself for two weeks then? :o)
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Proud Resident of Obamistan
I wish.I could use the vacation.Seriously, though, this is not something I would have called for a timeout for, for anyone else.In fact, I didn't call for a timeout, or even a warning to the two other people in this thread, who said the very same thing.I consider it a 'heads up'...It's all fun and games, until someone puts an eye out..You are always welcome at Quittintime
Lighten up Dude I was just busting your chops.....
It was cloudy here today for the first time in a couple of weeks so feel for yah.
Jim
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Proud Resident of Obamistan
Edited 11/9/2009 2:43 pm by leftisright
It's alright I took care of it. Next fest he's got to rassle me naked in the tar pit. That's worse then a timeout. Moderatimg my fellow moderators let's me make up my own punishments. We don't have the Geneva convention to save ourselves.
Next fest he's got to rassle me naked in the tar pit.
I was on the fence about going to the next fest but you just made that decision for me....
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Proud Resident of Obamistan
I was on the fence about going to the next fest but you just made that decision for me....
Got your bags packed already, huh?copper p0rn
We are acting too excited. He's going to figure us out.
No...actually that was a NOT going...
Don't think my liver would stand it and I have a fear of the Amish like some fear clowns...
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Proud Resident of Obamistan
Sissycopper p0rn
Come on...
What's the entertainment value in watching Gunner and Luka wrestle in the nude?
Other than a really popular YouTube video...
But my money is on a Luka belly bump knockout...
Other than a really popular YouTube video...
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Proud Resident of Obamistan
So you need a ride? LOL
Hey Jim let's get this squared away. When were you given a two week timeout for less?
Vescere bracis meis.
Luka is right, it's like a kleenex or scotch tape etc. BUT ... banks and cu's are as different as cars vs trucks. Both are transportation ... the similarity stops there. One big reason banks don't like cu's is rooted in the basic difference. Bigger banks offer a wide range of services: checking, savings, investments, trust accounts, safe deposit boxes, etc and they work under a specific set of federal rules (if they are a federal chartered bank), and they are open to anyne who walks through the door ... or clicks on the web site. BTW, especially now, I would be hesitant to do business with a bank that was n ot federally chartered. I would look very closely at any bank with a state charter.
Credit unions started off years ago to serve a specific customer base, like Dupont Employee CU. Great idea. They had different rules because they offered different services. They don't have checking accounts, because they were designed to be places to get loans. But of course they have found a workaround. They were supposed to limit their customer base to a specific segment of the population. They did not have to pay the same FDIC premiums to the government for the insurance. Yes they have FSLIC or whatever insurance, but the rates they pay are lower. Every regulation they operated under was more favorable to them than the corresponding bank regulation.
Up to a point that did not cause issues. Then about 15 years ago there was a big change in the gov't and they relaxed the restrictions on cu's so they could expand their customer base, offer different products, and basically compete directly with banks. But their fees did not change. They got their cake and got to eat it too. It's very much akin to a fully licensed contractor competing againt the guy who does not pay insurance or have a state license ... ever see that discussed here?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
But here's what got me going in the OP ... banks are getting beat up today, sometimes for good reason. Sometimes the abuse is based on misundersytanding, sometimes based on a bad personal experience. I'm not so naive or egotistical to try to defend every complaint posted about a bank. But dammit, when the issue doesn't involve a bank, and the banking community is wrongly critized, I have to speak up. And in this case I didn't like the OP's tone, it seemd like he had a chip on his shoulder. Others posted ideas about how to approach the lender, it seemed like his mind was closed."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I understand where you are coming from, but right now might be one of those times when it would be better to just bite your tongue. There is as you point out not much sympathy for the banking industry, and splitting hairs as to how he identified the lenders doesn't go a long way to making people feel better about it. If people do have a chip on their shoulder when they deal with banks, you don't need to look far to see where it came from.
The irony is, I agree 100% with his desire to read the docs before the last minute. I think he could have found a workaround that particular person.
If people do have a chip on their shoulder when they deal with banks, you don't need to look far to see where it came from.
I disagree with that, for a couple of reasons. I work for a fairly large bank (1300+ branches, and I think we're in the top 10 largest), but we have a very good reputation and a good relationship with the community. We don't get bad press. And I don't work in the money end, I'm in the real estate dept."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Eddie,
I asked politely and sternly told no. What work around should be required?
BTW you did not answer my previous question to you-Have you ever signed a bank, oops, lending institution contract as a GC?
Your answer would be appreciated. Those documents control how an when you get paid, who can sue you, and what recourse you have. Knowing all that stuff beforehand impacts how you price the project. It was not an unreasonable request and yes I get my hair up when some closing assistant treats me like some ignorant idiot who does not know what their doing.
Bruce
Talk to the Gm or Pres!
Exactly. The loan officer he talked with was trying to control the situation. Hopefully he showed more professionalism than her and didn't loose his cool. Next call should be to her boss.
No, I have not signed one of those docs, all my customers had the financing worked out already. I understand where you're coming from, as I am now on the other side of the fence, signing conytracts as the bank rep with contracotrs to do work for me. We use AIA contacts, which are already 20-something pages long, and then add on about 15 more pages of modifications. The difference is, we give the gc complete copies to review when they get the bid package."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I realize where you are coming from.
I auspect the credit union is using a preprinted form with most terms the same as any other loan doc.
I personally don't much care for A1A docs, but at least they are familiar to contractors or should be.
I can't speak to your position, or your banks, but I do think that your reply does in some ways explain why people still feel some antipathy towards bankers. The sometimes it's our fault, sometimes it's their fault reasoning would be a little easier to take if we had experienced even a brief period of Mea Culpa from the industry before it has largely returned to business as usual - after it did, lets not forget, play a pivotal role in bringing all the worlds economies to their knees. When someone does something wrong and refuses to accept blame for it, people are a bit wary of them.
We have a similar situation here with the reputation of the construction industry. A series of design and building practices lead to the widespread failure of building envelopes in much new construction, costing billions to fix and bankrupting many homeowners with crippling repair costs. I have never had a claim against me, but as a result of the problems my insurance, permitting and construction costs have skyrocketed. However I have would never defend the industry here, and share the blame for what happened. I am embarrassed that governments and both the architectural and construction community managed to escape most of the financial blame for the problems they caused and am glad to pay my share to make things right.
Edited 11/8/2009 9:58 am ET by fingersandtoes
It is also probably fair to inform our southern neighbours, that for all intents, banks and CU's up here in the frozen north are virtually the same, other than most of the banks are national and CU's are local. But they play by the same rules, and AFAIK, we have not had one bank failure.
True. The only substantial difference is they call us members rather than customers. Always makes me laugh - it's like hearing them page a Sales Associate at Walmart.
Don't you get the feeling that if things hadn't gone bad that in a few years our banks would have gone down the same path? There was a lot of talk by Canadian bankers at the time about how regulations were hampering their ability to compete internationally and that the strings should be loosened.
Look at what they did to Iceland. I saw yesterday even Macdonalds are pulling out!
Edited 11/8/2009 4:16 pm ET by fingersandtoes
what did they do to iceland?
In a short period of time Iceland went from being a bunch of fishermen to being a major player in international banking. Along with Ireland it was described as a perfect example of the "new economies" which would rely on financial know how rather than producing anything. When things tanked their banking system collapsed. Iceland's banking defaults were much larger than its GDP. Its middle class is leaving in droves and the rest of them are dusting off their gill netters.
Ed, his mind should be closed. There should be no reason why he, as a signer, should not have access to documents that he will be required to sign.
He does have access to them. Just not until closing. He can take as long as he likes at that point to read the docs and either sign or not sign. Would it be nice for them to provide docs early, sure. Their money, their rules though. Some loans also have a three day right to rescind.
Edited 11/7/2009 1:35 pm ET by TomW
"But dammit, when the issue doesn't involve a bank, and the banking community is wrongly critized..."
Naw. Doesn't matter if they're not guilty. We're talking Banks here now. Banks! And Bankers. They have no idea whom their fathers are. If anyone ever deserves wrongful criticism, it's banks and bankers.
Devil spawn. They have no soul. They sleep in wooden boxes during the day.
Hiker: NIT PICKER!!!! I'm proud of you. I, likewise, read every line of every doc when at a closing. Drives bankers absolutely nuts! But they cannot refuse you that right. Especially drives their lawyer nuts, who is on a schedule. Tell them in advance what you plan to do, then bring the coffee, like someone said. All they can do is fume while you read. They hustle you & they leave themselves open to lawsuits, especially if they do it in front of witnesses, like your client. Clue in your client to just sit there patiently & drink coffee w/ you while you do it. If they are in on the caper, it strengthens your position, ESPECIALLY if they read them along w/you.
Good luck. The law is on your side.
Don
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
I'm always amazed at the number of people who happily sign whatever contract is put in front of them, without reading it. Buying a car, getting a loan, whatever, people smile and nod and sign where they're told, and then act surprised when they find out they can't walk away from their car lease after two years, or they discover their interest rates go up after 2 years.
And others act surprised when you want to read over the documents before signing. They stand there all impatient because you actually want to understand what you're committing to.
Let's just replace 'bank' and 'credit union' with 'financial institution', so the piazzing match can go away.
Harry: I'm w/ you! Doesn't matter who hands me the document - I read it, they can fume all they want - they want my sig, I get to read it first. I've had a bank's lawyer try to pressure me at a real estate closing - told him in no uncertain terms what he could do. Believe it or not, I've also had a bank give me copies of blank docs to read in advance to save time.DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
Don
A question. Have you ever found something at a closing that caused you not to sign? I've heard of interest rates and such being changed from the quoted terms. And that is the one item I look hard at. But nothing has ever caused me to walk out of closing without my house.
Good question. I have found most documents are forms. I tend to read the parts that are filled in. Most times you won't get a bank to budge on the preprinted stuff.
I feel your pain. I recently completed a fairly large (at least nowadays) 140,00. addition and remodel. Prior to the client receiving the loan I filled out 7 pages of info for the bank. Included but not limited to, schedule of values, scope of work, list of all my licences and insurance certificates, list of all subs with their phone numbers and addresses, client references, my last 6 similar projects with contact info etc. etc. Halfway thru the job they began holding back some of my draw money. When I inquired they said they hold back 10% until completion and issuance of certificate of occupancy. Totally understandable but I think they should have brught that to my attention prior to the start of the job. I was cooperative with them and feel they were lacking in conveying that info.
As an asie, my firt draw went like this: Submit invoice (electronically) on the 1st, inspector comes out on the 8th, bank transfers money into clients account on the11 th, customer hand delivers check to me same day (11th)... now heres the rub, the check was drawn on an out of state account (the bank had set up for him) which would take 10 days to clear which would be the 21st). Heres a timeline of my billing, 1st= 13,000., 8th 19,000., 15th= 21,000., 22nd 16,000. That would mean I would have received beasically 13,000 while I was into the job for 69,000. I demanded and received a modification so that the customer could wire the monies to my account the same day as the bank deposited them in his.
Moral of the story, banks suck. They want everyhing from us and don't want to give us anything in return. If you think about it the bank in the above situation was charging my client interest from the day they put funds into his account but by paying from an out of state account they collected interest on the float for 10 days each time.
The only time I have lost a large sum of money over the last 25 years is via a bank that was not forthright in telling me they were reviewing the clients risk as I continued to build. They merely said there was a paperwork glitch that would be straigtened ou in two, then 4 then 6 weeks but they actually pulled his line of credit (this was a commercial job) after 8 weeks, Fortunately I got most of the money when I filed suit against the bank for fraud.
>>by paying from an out of state account they collected interest on the float for 10 days each time
Stuff like that definitely sucks. My local bank does that with their online bill-paying service: they debit your account the minute you click "submit" but they credit the vendor 7 days later, even on stuff that could easily be electronically transferred in seconds.
As mentioned in the Great White North the Banks and CU's are almost the same. My Dad worked for a very large CU. They had computerized banking here ten years before the banks. Sold the software all over the world.
My DW worked for a large charted bank and was amazsed how slow they were to process anything that they could get an extra cent of two of interest.
At the same branch DW worked at my late brother had a lot of money invested. When we were doing his estate. The managers gave us a huge runaround about getting the funds. We had just done my Moms estate and the CU's were fast, courtious and bent over backwards to keep us using there service. Which we did. I had to stand in the middle of the bank and yell the banks own policy back to them to make the idiot understand we were fufilling there policy as we has noterized wills, cert of death and all the other carp needed.
So some half brained losser tells me I have to fill out a credit check so we were able to pay tax on the estate. I told him to ZZZZ off and called the cops. and walked out with my brother the co executor. He was mad as hell but having kidney problems was trying to stay calm.
I got home and the phone was ringing. A big cheese at the bank was trying to give me heck for yelling in the bank. I tore a strip off him for half an hour told him to look at there paper work and we had done this many times with many financial instituitions and goverment bonds etc. About an hour later a very humble ars puckerd nother big guy phones and says sorry we did not want to loose that big deposit.
Cops call and say there is a cheque waiting for $85.000. Laughs and said" Man you got balls" Cop used to deal with my Dad at the credit union, and Dad worked with the freud squad on a few cases.
If he didn't make you read and understand a contract, he would not sign. As kids we got the don't sign it till I read it drill. Well it was lesson's well learned.
I would go to the CU board of Directors and ask nicely why this policy is in place?
For what it worth if you take credit cards or debit cards the CU rates are way cheaper that the Banks. and the money hits your account faster.
Good luck maybe open a small account at the CU and see if things get better??
I had a very similar experience. My father's probated will was not enough to get his bank to turn over his stock portfolio until I set lawyers after them. By the time they released the account it has lost around 25 k.
A good friend spent three years getting banks to release his mother's money that she had scattered to keep within the banks insured account limits. But somehow when you want to make a deposit or buy mutual funds that runs very smoothly.
Ouch 25K.
Have you ever checked the Bank Of Canada website of "forgotten accounts".It is amasing how much cash is sitting around in these unused accounts