I’ve noticed that some new kitchen designs employ three stacked drawers for most base cabinets while other designs encorporate rolling racks behind typical doors below single drawers.
Anyone care to offer an opinion on either or both variation from basic two shelf designs?
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Replies
i built mine with doors and pullout shelves. mistake
so you have to completely open the door /doors and then pullout shelve. vs. with the drawer type,just pull out the one you need. one less motion involved. plus the back of my doors are getting scratched a little when the doors don't get fully opened.
the older i get ,
the more people tick me off
I getcha. So you have to get outta the way of the door before pulling out the shelf/drawer. Awkward, particularly if you don't remember where the thing is that you're looking for.
More hardware to buy and install too. Now that I think about it, I'd rather spend the money on premium drawer slides. Like a good mechanic's tool box where the drawers with roller bearings open and close almost effortlessly, no matter how much weight is in them.
Edited 8/31/2009 8:45 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
A big AMEN on that, Budget!!For the past few years, I've been encouraging customers to minimize doors and shelves in their base cabinets because it's a real PITA (and back, and knees - lol) to have to crawl around digging stuff out of them.Although it usually works, many of them still want doors and drawers and brush off my argument that having to fully open the doors to get to the drawers is also a real hassle. It's difficult, but I somehow manage to restrain my impulse to say "Tried to tell you" when I get a call a few months later asking how to deal with the dings on the backs of the doors. - lol
>>....asking how to deal with the dings on the backs of the doors.....<<
Close the doors.
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
A satisfying answer, but not very politically correct. - lol
Well, ya' tried to tell 'em nicely once and they ignored you!
How far does PC go! :=)
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
There are little plastic bumpers designed to mount to the drawer / sliding shelf / basket, to keep the inside of the door from getting dinged up.
FastCap, Blum, and Tenn-Tex all make them, and there are probably others.
The best cabinets have wheels on the ends of their glides to protect the back of the doors ...
Gotta agree with Alwaysoverbudget. It's not as bad with a single door but double doors are particularly a pain.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
In terms of pure function, drawers are best for the reasons already given. Deep lower drawer(s) (usually 3 drawer stacks) will accomodate most anything like cookware. If you've got room one or two four or even five drawer stacks make good use of room for utensils and such.
Looks-wise, some people prefer the look of doors, which often have more detail like a raised panel or inset, where drawer fronts are most often flat slabs. There are exceptions, of course.
Retrofittng rollouts is much easier than retrofitting drawers FWIW.
Some custom cabinet builders will have almost all drawers because of enhanced utility.
What sort of guides are you considering? If you're interested, I've got opinions!
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
Excellent, I'm glad that you all agree. Certainly makes sense to me, particularly with the many small electric appliances that tend to collect on the countertops. I'd much prefer to clean them up and put them away in a drawer whenever possible.
Next question then: What are the better options for inside corner cabinets, base and wall?
And drawer hardware for the heavy stuff...what works smoothly?
Next question then: What are the better options for inside corner cabinets, base and wall?
There are some incredibly creative and expensive solutions for inside corners, particularly base cabs. All trying to make the best use of an awkward space.
Without going crazy, and assuming cost vs value is a consideration, here's what I like: Kidney lazy susan base, independently rotating shelves. For a door, I like Blum bifolding arrangement, with 170 degree hinge. There are exceptions, but I'd need a layout to judge. Get yourself a Rev-A-Shelf catalog for lots of ideas on space utilization.
Uppers I prefer 45 degree angled cab, with full round lazy susan. If you're building or remodeling, and have soffits above cabs, be sure to get that detail framed and rocked, so cabs don't stick out beyond soffit.
As to drawer guides. The soft close undermount guides which are all the rage seem to have invented a problem and solved it in on fell swoop. They are clever and fun to play with, I'll admit. My big beef, aside from expense, is that there is some mechanical resistance you have to overcome when opening the drawer. My favorite use of soft close is actually on doors, but if you have drawer slammers in your midst, they'll be forever frustrated by soft close :) I can go on....but I digress!
Things to consider on guides; is seeing the guide mounted on side of drawer an issue? Weight of loaded drawer? Full extension of drawer out of cab important? Want to demo the soft close to guests?
Most guides are rated for 75 or 100 lbs. Beyond that you get into lineal ball bearing guides (like Accuride), that offer even greater capacity, at a slight expense extension resistance.
My favorite guides happen to be dirt cheap, Mepla-Alfit. Standard side/bottom mount mill-run guides. Lots of similar stuff out there, these just seem to work slightly better.
http://www.grass.eu/teilauzug-30kg-rollschubfuehrung.html?&L=1
I can go on...and on....and on. Some choices will be dictated by cab. mfg. They have established supply with particular mfgs. or distributors, so all choices aren't available from any given cab builder.
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
For me, It depends on the amount of space you have. If you have sufficient, then I would just made it a deep cabinet with a shelf and store the rarely used stuff. If storage is tight, then I might consider on of those fancy pullout/pivot units.
I have even blanked off the corner and used pullouts /drawers in both sides of the corner. That is what I perfer in my own home. Specially since I have a back and neck issues.
This is coming from a cabinet maker that has done every configuration known, including a pop up/swivel T.V. in the dead corner. That was probably the best use, but the cost was there, too.
For me, It depends on the amount of space you have.
Agreed. Many don't want to give up the space, but if you've got a lot it makes a difference. All solutions have compromises, it really seems to be a matter of which of those one prefers. Another option is a 45 degree angled drawer stack base, some space lost, but utility gained.
One thing I've not tried and forgot to mention is 90degree corner drawer systems being offered by Blum and possibly others. Have you given those a whirl?
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
Hey, you're a small gold mine of useful experience and information on this subject. Thanks for the link, the full descriptions and the reasoning. I'm sure to get back to you with more questions in the future.
A slight disagreement. I think that you want at least one base with a door and adjustable shelves, or even better adjustable roll out shelves.Unless you keep them on the top of the counter all the time then are taller things like blenders and food processors that you want to put in their. And a large roasting pan.But you might have a appliance garage or pantry with open shelves.As far as corner cabinets it depends. Now I have a J shaped kitchen and not much room for cabinets. In my case the 45 degree cabinets with full lazy suzan is the most practical design. But while that does leave those corners with those deep tops. But in one corner I have an appliance garage. In the other I have a countertop microwave sitting diagonally. So I make good use of the space.Otherwise I thing that the square corner with a notched 270 degree lazy suzan. And if you use a design with a separate door then you can access each self much like a roll out. But if you have the door attached to the shelves then you will need to bend down to get anything onthe bottom.But I have not used the double folding doors needed for a separate door and they look clunky, but don't know.If you have lots of cabinets you can just use regular cabinets (along with a small spacer to maintain opening clearances) and waste the space in the back of the corner.I have not used any, but there are a number of other systems of sliding/rotating shelves that are suppose to work in corners, but they appear fairly clunky to me..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
"Some custom cabinet builders will have almost all drawers because of enhanced utility."
I imagine that the only place I'll use doors is under the sink(s).
"What sort of guides are you considering? If you're interested, I've got opinions!"
Fire away!
The house I just sold I built with all drawers except under sink. Just drawers, no doors hiding the drawers.
One set was actually 6 drawers with only 3 fronts with the bottom drawer much deeper.
Now moved to a house with a larger kitchen but it's all cabinet below.
Wife hates it, I hate it.
More cabinet space = less useful space and the stuff in the back is effectively lost.
Joe H
Wife hates it, I hate it.
I found several types and sizes of sliding/rolling racks by Rubbermaid. Meant to be a nice improvement for old base cabinets. Saw them in the selving aisle at HD. Prices start at about $30ea.
I'm of the same mind as the other guys. We stayed away from anything that required two actions to access something, like 1) open door then 2) slide out shelf.When I designed and built the cabinets (and the house!) for our own kitchen 15 years ago, the first decision was to go with deeper base kitchen cabinets. This gave us drawers about 28-1/2" deep and countertop 30" deep. My wife cooks every day, so instead of appliance cubbies, she wanted the things she uses out and available. Having the deeper countertop allows things to stay on the counter while still providing good work area on the countertop.All the base cabinet drawers are on 28" full extension or over-extension slides. Everything is accessible, nothing gets lost in the dark caves below. The ease of access and the sheer amount of storage is just ridiculous.Under our 36" wide cooktop I have two 36" wide drawers, a shallow one on top that holds all pot/pan lids, and the deeper one below that holds all the pots and pans.I have one deep drawer next to the cooktop that I lined with sheet aluminum, it's for holding bottles of cooking oils and is deep enough so the bottles can stand upright. The aluminum is easier to clean than oil-stained wood. Since that drawer is so deep, it has a false front that resembles two stacked drawer fronts. For the base corner unit I built a big 2-level lazy susan. The round shelves are pretty large, about 37 or 38" in diameter. There is no door on the front of it. The interior cylindrical wall of the cabinet has about a 3/8" clearance from the rotating shelves, we've never had anything fall off a shelf or jam the spinning shelves. I looked at several of the "clever" corner storage units, sliding this and that, but my wife chose the simplicity of the susan. Works great. The 28" slides kept us away from the fancy hocus-pocus drawer slide stuff that's out there. Money-wise that was a good thing, as I have around 30 drawers on the "cooking side" of the kitchen. I stuck with regular old KV slides, 100# slides for most, and 150# slides for the large pot/pan and heavy baking area drawers that are loaded with flour, etc. The hardest thing was installing those utilitarian looking KV drawer slides on the nice dovetail drawer boxes I made. But hey, it's a working kitchen not a place to reheat take-out in the microwave.
Mongo,
Thanks for the excellent description and the reasoning that went into your design decisions.
How do those deeper base cabinets effect your ablity to reach things in the wall units?
Where did you find the cylindrical wall for the lazy susan? Same supplier?
I sure like concept of the range top having large, deep drawers under it for everyday cookware.
Because the base cabs are deeper, I made the uppers deeper too. They're roughly 16" deep. So to a certain extent that added depth in the uppers offset accessibility issues caused by the deeper bases. Not a big deal for me at 6'4", but it was for my wife who is 5'1".The cylindrical insert that surrounds the lazy susan, I made that myself. I built all the cabinets myself. Basically birch ply carcasses and beaded poplar face frames with inset doors/drawer fronts.
OK, that makes sense, up to a point. I'm curious how your DW copes with chopping veg and other food prep chores on a typical 36" countertop. Did you consider making the base cabs lower? I'm 5'9" and I'd prefer a lower surface for chopping veg, something I do fairly often.
It's like choosing a height for saw horses. I like mine a few inches lower than average because I can see cut lines better and reach farther with a circ saw.
Yup, the beauty of custom cabinetry. We lowered some countertops 1" lower, some 2" lower than normal, depending on what type of prep she was going to be doing at those countertops.Same with the kitchen island. The main part of the island (roughly 4' by 7') is lower than standard, that island holds the 6-burner gas cooktop. At 6'4", I can work at those lower countertops, but they're certainly not the best for me. The worst case for me is the undermount kitchen sink. But I deal with it. Heck, if you saw the house I grew up in, you'd realize I can deal with anything.My prep area is a roughly 4' square island end cap on tall cabinetry that abuts the previously described island. I topped the end cap with a 5" thick slab of end-grain butcher-block teak, the finish working height is around 44" high, it's so comfortable for me, I do 90% of all my chopping/prep on that. Durable as all, there are no scars in the end grain even after years of use.Big part of a multi-user kitchen is lane space. I made the aisles or floor space between the wall and island countertops 48" wide. It allows two people to work back-to-back, it allows doors/drawers on one side to be open while still affording room for someone to pass by, etc.I made her bake/pastry center low too, makes it easy to knead and roll out dough. The slab top for that is cast concrete, I cast a cooling loop from an old dehumidifier into it, turn it on and it chills the slab for pastry work. Pretty slick. I also cast measuring rounds into it for rolling out 8", 10" rounds, as well as for rolling out dough into rectangles/squares. I asked her what she wanted in a kitchen and boy, did she ever tell me!
Edited 8/31/2009 4:56 pm ET by Mongo
Thanks for the descriptions. I'm impressed that you came us with so many creative solutions, particularly the cooling loop in the pastry counter.
Those are great ideas for a serious cook. I believe, as you apparently do too, that the things you use every day ought to be quality materials and designs.
Another under-used feature is the wall-mounted faucet at the kitchen sink. All restaurant sinks have the faucet mounted on a vertical surface--either the integral backsplash of the sink itself or the wall above the sink. They are much easier to clean than deck-mounted faucets. Sterling and Chicago both make some top-quality wall-mount faucets.
I think it's important to give serious consideration to the ease of cleaning this kind of stuff, because, if you think about it, the hours spent cleaning will far exceed the hours spent builidng it.
Remember seeing some of the old, one-piece cast iron kitchen sink units? The ones with drainboards on each side of the sink? They all had an integral backsplash with the faucet mounted there. They were great, because every area near the sink drained cleanly and seamlessly into the sink. But the cost today would be way high.
Post that in 'Cooks Talk' and they are all going to bug their husbands for those upgrades.
I used to be a regular poster over there for a few years, '96-99 or so. I got pulled over there by my wife, who was a CT regular, to answer design and construction questions. I visit infrequently now.
>>When I designed and built the cabinets (and the house!) for our own kitchen 15 years ago, the first decision was to go with deeper base kitchen cabinets. This gave us drawers about 28-1/2" deep and countertop 30" deep.<< Mongo,I really like your idea of deeper base cabinets. I'm now in the middle of a kitchen remodel, and I plan to pull out my standard 24" base cabs about 3", deepening the c'tops. I can also gain an inch by using thin tile backsplash instead of 1.5" deep post form tops. 4.5" doesn't sound that much, but when the back half of the c'top is always used for appliance storage, then the front work area grows from 12" to 16" -- 33% increase. Another reason for deeper c'tops is my 11 ft wide kitchen -- too wide for a galley, and too narrow for an island.My real concern is the upper cabs. Am I doing a disservice to future owners/buyers? You also mentioned 16 in deep uppers, is that necessary? How is that working out for you?
While the storage depth of the deeper base cabs with everything on slides can be easily utilized, there can sometimes be a limitation to the depth of the upper that can be practically used. We've had a lot of guests drool over the larger uppers because many of them have large dinnerware, 13"-14" plates, etc, that don't fit in their "standard-sized uppers."From the practical point of view, I think in some ways a 16" upper (total usable interior space about 14-3/4" deep) can be too deep if you pack the shelves full of varying materials. The things in the back could tend to become "lost".In our kitchen, based upon the design and layout, it works well because those deep uppers primarily store glassware and china. We can get more per shelf, it makes storage and accessibility fairly easy while knowing what's on each shelf. With the same items being on the shelf for the entire depth of the shelf, accessing items in the back of the upper isn't always required unless it's party-time and I need 24 wine glasses and 18 beer steins, etc.If you were to use a 16" deep upper to store miscellaneous canned goods, etc, I think that'd be an organizational dark cave, so to speak. Things would get lost in the back of the cabinet.The other side of my kitchen has floor-to-ceiling pantry shelving, the cabinets used to store canned goods are only about 12" deep, ones used to store larger items are deeper.We really though out what we were going to store and where we are going to store it, and used cabinet size, width, and depth to best accommodate those items. The biggest and most basic thing is to store things near where you'll use them, and to try to minimize movement through or across the kitchen, so for example, someone setting the table doesn't have to intrude in the cooking area, or children trying to get things (cereal, bread for toast, drinks out of the fridge, etc) out of the kitchen stay away from the main cooking aisle.Over the past 15 years we didn't make any physical changes to the layout of our kitchen. It's worked just as we'd planned. The only change I had to make was that we originally had a couple of large pantry units that were doorless, my wife originally wanted open shelving. After looking at the "clutter" for a couple of years, she wanted to to add doors, so I did. The good news is that when I built the pantries I planned for the possibility of eventually adding doors, so the cabinets themselves didn't need to be modified at all.Anyhow, back to your original question, the uppers. The main thing about making the uppers deeper wasn't really about added storage, it was about access. Could my wife, at 5'1", still reach a 12" deep upper that was set over a 30" deep base cabinet? I think pulling the uppers out away from the wall makes sense for access. As to making a custom set of 16" deep uppers, or just pulling a stock 12" deep upper 4" out from the wall, either would work. Again, for me, pulling the uppers out was more for accessibility than added storage.
Thanks for expanding on your design criteria and how it's worked for you. Sounds like many professional kitchen designers could learn from your careful work.
If you have the means and the time, would you please draw a lay-out of your kitchen floor plan, perhaps using letters or numbers to indicate work areas and storage spaces with descriptions of what work is done where and where items stored, in your post.
I'll have to see if I can sync up my scanner to my mac. Used to use pcs but changed over to macs and never checked to see if there are mac drivers available for my scanner.Forgot, we did make one other change to the cabinets. We used to have a single side-by-side fridge in the kitchen, and a spare freezer down in the basement...which is also my home shop. My wife was always up and down the stairs, and had to go through the shop to get to the freezer. So...I bought a full-size fridge and a separate full-size freezer for the kitchen and moved the original side-by-side downstairs as my beer and miscellaneous storage fridge.I had to do a little meatball surgery on one wall of cabinets to fit the freezer next to the fridge. <sigh>So, yeah, between the freezer and adding the doors to the pantries, we've made a couple of changes I guess.
Nice of you to accomodate your DW like that. Kitchens evolve along with those who prepare meals in them so I'm not surprised that you made a few alterations.
"Nice of you to accomodate your DW like that."
It's cheaper to keep her. And it helps that she's a keeper to begin with.
We went with the 30" deep base as well and love it. We did minimize uppers, which helped. One comment about the slab drawer fronts - I only did that on the 4-stack units; all the taller drawers are frame & panel. We do have one door w/pullout and that's to balance the layout on the island with the sink at the other end.
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For our layout we solved the deep dark pantry problem this way:
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Similar approach for the broom closet, IMHO an even bigger black hole:
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Our one upper unit is 14" (12" inside). My wife is 5'4" and can get to the bottom 2 shelves no problem. The footstool under the prep sink is for everything else (and for me to pull the crock pot out of the wall unit once a year - I'm 6'). Below the one upper unit is the appliance garage. I far prefer these kinds of appliances on a sturdy base rather than a shelf. The beauty of custom built is that the food processor slides in fully assembled with a good 1/2" to spare.
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A couple of benefits we've found with the deeper base: Standard refer fits basically flush - no need for absurdly over-priced 24" refer! Also we compost and were able to fit a built-in countertop compost bin in; the drawer below has trash and recycle bins and the whole thing (barely!) fits.
View ImageAll drawer glides are Blum Tandem undermount. A bit pricy, expecially in the deeper sizes, but I saved so much building the drawers and cabinets myself I could afford them. (Note: my hourly rate is $1.99 - yea, it was a big project but are still loving the results 3 years later).
Edited 9/3/2009 9:57 pm by wrudiger
Nice work! The kitchen is such a heavily used space, it's nice to make it work for the users instead of against them.
Wow! Tip of the hat, sir. And thanks for posting the photos with descriptions and your reasoning.
I notice that you found room for a computer desk/office. That's something that I've had in mind as well. Does that area get much use?
In my current kitchen I have my primary computer on the raised side of my kitchen peninsula. It's an iMac with a very small footprint and just a power cord so the back of it is actually quite attractive. (The keyboard and mouse are bluetooth, and wifi for internet.) I often swing it around so it faces the kitchen side so I can refer to recipes onscreen, or just keep up an IM conversation while I'm cooking. Plus I play music and streaming video on it.
In my current kitchen I have my primary computer on the raised side of my kitchen peninsula.
Sounds like another good method. My current plan, as a minimum, is to provide outlets on the seating side of the island, as you have done.
I've been working with only a notebook puter for the last couple of years and find it compatible with almost everything I want to do. Turning it around to make it viewable from the kitchen work area is, of course, simple to do and the touchpad turns with it.
This has been a good thread for me. We've been trying to come up with a plan for our kitchen with is a small U shaped one, but a little wide between the legs, not enough for an island. I've thought about the wider cabinets to gain more space which is really needed, and utilization of the corners, which are now all blind.When we went to a number of recommended kitchen planners, all the recommendations were just standard stock, and when bringing up the corners, lazy susans, which I went along with.There was a recent discussion I believe over in Knots which referenced another site discussing the practicality of lazy susans. The person who was on both sites went through the justification that lazy susans in base cabinets really did not provide acceptable storage area, and that by just using normal drawers or cabinets you gained just as much if not more storage.Has anyone done the storage calculations?
My old kitchen had the sink in the corner. That solved the storage problem. That cabinet was taken up with the garbage disposal and trash can on the back of one cabinet door. The counter was angled between the two counters for the sink and then there was a lot of counter space behind the sink where I kept a goldfish bowl and some plants. It was kinda nice.Currently I don't have corners. I have a galley kitchen and both sides just run into the wall and stop. The space between is a wall with a towel rack on it. in a bigger kitchen you'd have room for a piece of furniture then you could have normal size cabinets that wouldn't really be corners.
I have a J-shaped kitchen (actually U with the refrigerator), but part of the long leg has an open side so that there is a bar countertop on the other side and thus no uppers in that section.It is 9 ft wide.Now I have 36" from the sink, which would be very hard to move, to the U base, and 40" on the range side. And the corner is full lazy susan's. I have though of this, but not put it down on paper and checked the actual sizes.I could not keep the J shape and go with deeper cabinets as it would need to push the stove and sink down.But I could probably go with dual galley (nothing at the J base) and use normal cabinets instead of the corner units. I think that would end up with similar storage, if I went to deeper cabinets.But I would loose the work space between the stove and the sink. And that is the prime work space.Also I think that it would look funky with just the blank wall at the end..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
9' wide, you're right. That would look funky. I only have 34" between the front of my sink and the counter on the other side. It's barely enough room to do yoga on the anti-fatigue mats I have down there.
"The person who was on both sites went through the justification that lazy susans in base cabinets really did not provide acceptable storage area, and that by just using normal drawers or cabinets you gained just as much if not more storage.
Has anyone done the storage calculations?"
I can offer a comparison for my kitchen.
I just went and took some quick measurements. In my base corner, the face frame is clipped at a 45-degree angle and the opening in the face frame is 18" wide which would hold a 17" wide drawer with side-mounted slides, which are the slides I used in the rest of my kitchen. Depth-wise, I could fit a 38" deep drawer. If the rectangular drawer box has 1/2" thick sides with a 3/4" thick front face applied to the drawer box, the usable space inside the drawer is about 16" wide by 36" for 576 square inches of storage.
I have a lazy susan in there now, the susan shelves are a little over 37" in diameter with a 1" center spindle and a 3/4" raised rim around the circumference. The usable space works out to about 990 square inches per shelf.
Because of how we use that corner, it has two shelves on the susan for a total of 1980 sqin of storage. Three shelves on the susan would not work, at least not well. If it were two drawers, that'd be 1152 sqin, and three drawers would be 1728 sqin.
Theoretically, for my base cabinet dimensions, I'd need just under 3-1/2 drawers to give me the same storage space as 2 susan shelves.
Edited 9/4/2009 12:00 pm ET by Mongo
Mongo comes through!
Thanks for doing the calculations. I started on that, without benefit of morning coffee, and quickly decided to leave it for someone else.
Interesting results, to say the least.
Use the computer / office area all the time. We like that it is in the same space. DW and I have very different schedules; when they synch up it's nice to be together and the kitchen / great room is where we often hang out.
I finally got the real office space installed - only took 2 yrs after the rest of the remodel (I'm sure you understand!)
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Edited 9/4/2009 12:49 pm by wrudiger
Cherry mon!
only took 2 yrs after the rest of the remodel (I'm sure you understand!)
With my limited tooling and cabinet making skills, it would probably still look like the "temporary" office I set up here.
(description deleted, too embarrassing) (only one step above a pair of horses and piece of plywood) ;-)
I really admire that kitchen and all that went into building it. Thanks for all the photos. I'm inspired.
Thanks for the kind words; glad I could inspire! By the way, the original "office" wasn't much different that what I can imagine in your deleted description.
This was a real stretch project for me. I started in the shop with practice cabinets for tools & supplies. The next step was the propotype for the kitchen; conveniently the laundry room desperately needed cabinets.
Cabinets are basically plywood boxes. As long as you can cut your sheet goods square you're at least halfway there. There are a number of good books out there to help you get started - that's what I used. The first question is frame or euro/frameless. Pick one and stick with it (mine are frameless).
By the way, since I had leftover maple from the kitchen that's what I made the desk out of. Gave me a chance to play around with multi-layered finishes and dyes. Very fun and I'm totally stoked with how it turned out.
Good idea, doing the "practice" cabs first. I'll remember that when I do my first frameless cabs.
I'm pretty competent, building frames and installing someone else's pre-finished doors and drawers. That's about all I'm able to do with a basic on-site shop. Quick and profitable.
But I've been looking forward to moving up a couple notches in quality and style. Your work makes a fine example of something I can strive for when I build our next home.
You might find this photo tutorial on building frameless 32mm cabs helpful as you play around on this project. I think you'll have to sign up for free so you can view the photos.
Look forward to seeing what you come up with.'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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Looks very detailed and useful. Thanks, it's getting bookmarked right now.
In a message above I mentioned a series of articles or a blog that talked about the usefulness of corner solutions, but I couldn't remember the site. I hate mentioning something and not referencing it, but finally I was able find it.Anyway for reference if it's at all useful:http://cft411.com/2008/03/24/in-the-valley-of-the-blind-one-of-five/
Where is the Series?That is one short message with a "NEXT: “Rounding the Corner”"But no link to it.But it has a tag of "blind corner cabinets" Clicked on that it shows no post.And it is posted in 'kitchen ideas' Category.And click on that and 6 times more and have hot seen it. And based on the dates it might take another 30-50 click to find it..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
I understand the frustration, I remember it was not an easy place to navigate.To move to the next page, I went to the top and just above the title "In the valley of the blind" click on "next". After about the third page they have the correct working links at the bottom. Not user friendly.
Thanks.Sorry to come on so strong. I didn't mean to aim it you..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Thanks for the link. It looks like a worthwhile site, with many cabinet related topics.
This is really weird. For some reason my screen name showed up as "billgeorge" for my postings today. Logged out and now back in and I'm TMT again.Not networked and I'm the only person using this computer.
For some reason my screen name showed up as "billgeorge" for my postings today. Not networked and I'm the only person using this computer.
Your computer has pre-cognition so it decided to create a means by which you could duck, before Bill Hartman teed off. Much better than yelling, "Fore!"
>>>Thanks for the link. It looks like a worthwhile site, with many cabinet related topics.It is an interesting site. I was drawn into it because they showed some not so ordinary kitchen layouts.I thought the Italian designs had some innovative ideas and different ways of looking at the blind corner issue.http://cft411.com/2009/08/31/kitchen-designs-6/
You did a great job on that kitchen and office area. Could you explain a little more on the finishes and dyes you used for the office?
Thanks for the compliment. Still feel like I'm in first grade, playing in the sandbox. Having fun though!
The wood is hard maple. All layers applied with an HVLP Conversion gun, all finishes from homesteadfinishingproducts.com (Jeff Jewett's business).
Prep: Sanded to 150, misted water with the HVLP and finished sanded to 220.
First coat: Transtint Brown Mahogany at recommended dilution; diluted in water. Because of the grain raising done earlier there was very little with this pass. Jeff recommended the water dilution instead of alcohol to reduce splotching.
Second coat: Zinsser Seal Coat full strengh (it's a 2# cut de-waxed shellac)
Third coat: Target Hybrivar Alkyd waterborne finish, cut with water 10% and Transtint Red Mahogany added at about 75% of recommended strength (after a whold bunch of samples!).
Final coats: Target Hybrivar Alkyd waterborne finish, cut with water ~5%. One final coat on fronts & sides, two on tops.
wrudiger,Great kitchen! I definitely agree that paneled doors AND drawers look best. With the 30" base cabinets, do you have any issues reaching the uppers?
We just have the one upper unit. As I mentioned somewhere else my 5'4" DW can reach the three bottom shelves. It's just the top shelf that calls for the footstool.
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Edited 9/4/2009 12:57 pm by wrudiger
The kitchen is gorgeous. I do love Maple.
Today the granite guys will overlap that undermount sink by 3/16-1/4
so you don't see the caulk line. Just a note.
Another note is NEVER use the area behind the blank drawer front at the
sink, as I have never seen it stay clean or the hinges used hold properly. Full hgt. doors look good there IMO.
Amen to the false-front storage in front of sinks! Tried it in the propotype (laundry room) which saved me from doing it in the kitchen.
My sinks were done the way you describe; the photo is a bit misleading. Regardless, it does gunk up a bit over time - thanks for reminding me I need to clean it ;-)
IMHO, never put pull outs behind doors. PITA. Just graft the "door" on the pullout. One dawer above, pull out below. You can also do pull outs for canned goods and stuff in a series of pull outs about 8" deep. Never "lose" a can back in the back behind everything.
As far as the corners, I have used 1" angle with holes drilled to accept modified hooks to hang pots and pans from. No wasted space at all. Just run the angle horizontally the length of the base cab through a hole drilled in the wall side, and screw a bracket on both ends to mount. Additionally, I have put 1/4"X3/4" hard maple battens on the base cabs so people can slide heavy pots in and out without scarring the finish or paint. Drill and countersink holes for screw mounts. Good use for scrap. I always used to make some lid dividers to put in the wasted space where the pots and pans aren't. Usually just BB ply shot with clear.
I'm in the process of building cabinets for our new kitchen, and am on board with using drawers instead of doors/pullouts. A designer friend steered me to the Rev-A-Shelf line of pullout drawers for waste containers, pots, pans and the like...but their stuff is crazy expensive. Seems like I could build them easy enough with the right hardware. Can anyone suggest a source for the slides/brackets used for these? Shawn
For most of those pull-outs, Accuride 3832's would work fine. I just installed a Rev-a-Shelf double garbage bin pull-out, the one where the containers drop in and hang from a flat maple shelf with cut outs. The guides they use are comparable to 3832's and were rated at 100 lbs. I use them for pull-outs or anywhere else where a Blum Tandem would be out of place. They also have a self-closing model, 3832SC, but I'm only lukewarm about them. Blum Tandem's have spoiled me.
I just use Accuride full extension drawer slides, and make the pull-outs out of 1/2" Baltic Birch rabbetted, glued and bradded together.
Heres' one example.
I remodeled a house a few years ago and I did what my Mother said, use drawers in the base cabinets. Another cool thing she has in the kitchen is a cubby hole in the island to keep a rolling step stool. Its behind a door and just rolls out when you need to get to the upper cabinets.
Now I'm about to build cabinets for my son's house and I was thinking about pull out shelves. Thanks for the post and getting me to do what my Mother said years ago.
I have drawers in the bathroom where I keep my drawers and socks. Perfect.
Jim
I am now installing cabinets in our latest house ...
My wife and I hate roll out shelves behind doors. Makes no sense, unless you are modifying existing cabinets. Why open doors AND roll out shelves when you can just open a drawer. The ONLY possible advantage is to have some adjustment on shelf height.
Many times at showrooms I would see scratches on the back of doors from these pullout shelves -- that was enough to convince me.
Maybe we are different -- we also hate corner cabinets -- poor Susan -- everyone thinks she is lazy.
I agree with the majority here--drawers are almost always more useful than doors w/shelves behind.
If your wife or you bake much, you might be interested in an idea I came up with when I remodeled our kitchen.
Build a drawer that is sort of like an upsidedown drawer--flush across the top and hollow underneath. Then you cut out an opening in that top (made of 1/4" melamine) that is sized and shaped to accept a stainless steel buffet tray. The kind you see in the buffet tables in salad bars and all-you-can-eat places--the full size ones are about 13" x 21", and range in depth from 3 to 6 inches. You buy them at restaurant supply places.
The great thing is that you can dump a whole 25-lb sack of flour into the large size, and they even have flush-fitting SS lids if you're worried about bugs getting into the flour.
The other nice thing is the flexibility: you can buy the trays in sizes that are 1/2, 1/3, 1/4 or even 1/6 of the full size, and then buy divider bars that let you fit the smaller ones in place without having them drop thru. Again, the variety in depth is available for all sizes. A 10-lb sack of sugar fits easily in the 1/2 size.
If your space allows, build the drawer wide enough for two of the large cutouts to fit side-by-side. (About 28" min.)
You need the full extension guides, of course, and heavy duty is probably good, although I just used Blum's regular duty full extension with no problems for over 10 years, now.
Another idea for full use of space.
Make a drawer that fits under the double doors of the sink.
If pipes are in the back of the sink cabinet, make the drawer shorter to give clearance.
For the bottom of the main sink cabinet, that is, the one that divides the drawer from the space above, have it rest on shelf pins so it'll be removable to make it easier to work on plumbing when you remove it and the drawer.
Two ingenious ideas. Thanks for both.
I remember that we used to have a bread drawer, back in the days before flexible plastic bread wrappers. It was bare wood inside with a sliding top, made of light gauge stainless steel. The top was hidden when the drawer was closed. It's purpose was to keep the bread fresh, of course.
And remember the Hoosier cabinets? They were a marvel of compactness and utility. If you had one, you had almost a portable kitchen, with the exception of sink and water supply.
Maybe that's where the saying came from: "Everything but the kitchen sink"
EDIT: One more thing to consider is having at least one section (30" wide, min.) of the worktops be lower than the others for things like kneading dough or heavy chopping--like you said, sort of like sawhorses or workbenches--if you get too high, you lose power or leverage for some kinds of work.
Edited 8/31/2009 4:50 pm ET by rdesigns
It's still somewhat common in Europe for people to pack up the kitchen when moving. The floating floor gets pulled up and taken away. The cabinets are knock-down, they get flat-packed and transported to the next house.
That's bizarre. What are the chances that the kitchen and flooring will work in a different house?
Bing
The cabinets are stock sizes, they abut to each other and are just set against the wall. The flooring, who knows, I guess they can reset the planks however they want into whatever shape suits the new room. My brother-in-law just married his german sweetie, a girl he dated when he was an AFS student in Germany 25 years ago. She did the same when she moved out of her place in Germany last year; she sold her cabinets but gave the flooring to someone else in her family, then she moved over to the States.I guess it's very common when moving in/out of a rental, but less so when selling a house that you've owned.
It's still somewhat common in Europe for people to pack up the kitchen when moving. The floating floor gets pulled up and taken away. The cabinets are knock-down, they get flat-packed and transported to the next house.
Have you seen the lovely Swedish chef on PBS who sets up her small kitchen near the source of some part of the meal? She's usually near a lake or other water way, cooking fish and preparing other traditional Swedish dishes.
Haven't seen that show. But you're making me hungry.
One more thing to consider is having at least one section (30" wide, min.) of the worktops be lower than the others for things like kneading dough or heavy chopping-
One simple short cut method, commonly used in older kitchens, is to install a slide-out cutting board in the face frame, just above drawer height. That puts it about four inches lower than countertop height while making it easily accessible without taking up countertop space.
It also makes it easy to place a trash can next and below to the board, where refuse from chopping can be quickly dumped.
That brings up an idea I had for a chopping station: A slide-out phenolic cutting board and a cooresponding slide-out rectangular trash can with a fake door front.
I vote for using drawers with full extension wherever possible. How often does anyone ever adjust shelf heights after the initial move-in anyway? Build drawers the size you need to start with, you won't need adjustability. When I built my previous kitchen cabinets I did a lot of calculating and discovered that leaving the inside corners dead with drawer units on either side gave me just as much usable, accessible storage as a lazy Susan would have.
In my new house the sink is in one corner and the other corner has a space that will be accessed through builtins in the living room. Living room builtins will be shallow otherwise but I'll be able to fit folding chairs, etc. into that area. Only base in kitchen with doors will be under sink. Cookie sheets will go on edge in cabinet over fridge since I only have to be able to reach the bottom edge to get them out. I know I'm a lazy cook but I've found that if I have to move more than one item to get to something I might as well not own that something cuz its never getting used. The only time I would opt for shelves over drawers would be in a walkin pantry where everything would be on open shelves.
...the other corner has a space that will be accessed through builtins in the living room.
Now there's an excellent idea, figure out a way to access the corner space from the adjoining room.
I believe in drawers everywhere possible in base cabs.
Trying to think it through, it seems as if the scheme for having cabs with doors began as a cost-saving measure. Drawers cost money, slides cost money.
Fronts cost about the same whether they are all door, all drawerfront, or a mix.
The user is the beneficiary of drawer storage, being able to see and access the spaces, and not having to bend over as far to do so.
For storing heavy things, drawers can work just fine, when specified and built right. For storing tall items, the kinds of drawer "gallery" accessories, such as what Blum has, are ideal.
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
Glad to hear your reasoning Gene. Thanks.
This has been a very interesting topic for me, with many good ideas evaluated from personal experience, then discussed.
When you use drawers it's a busier look, ie, three sections, 3 pulls.
With, trays, one door, one pull, cleaner look, but a two step process to
get what your looking for.
<<When you use drawers it's a busier look, ie, three sections, 3 pulls.
With, trays, one door, one pull, cleaner look, but a two step process to
get what your looking for.>>You have a good point there. My wife looks at some designs, for example beadboard door panels, and says that's "too busy." In our case, using the clean lines of Shaker flat panel doors, the (possibly) extra drawers and pulls are not noticeable. In most base cabinets, two doors and a drawer are replaced by 3 drawers.
Good point, well described. We've been focusing more on the functional side of design in this thread because, in the long run, that's what's important to cooks or in any busy kitchen.
But with some clients, appearance takes the lead. When that's the case, having symmetry between the base and wall fronts is more agreeable.
I am a huge Blum fan, and recommend their TIP-ON feature as a way to avoid some of the "clutter" when doing bases with drawers and no doors.
TIP-ON means that the drawers open with a slight push of the fingers, and no drawer pulls are necessary.
Go to a good showroom and you should be able to see and try it yourself.
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The TIP-ON hardware is available for doors, also.
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
Thanks Gene,
I hadn't heard of those before. I've been planning on visiting a few custom kitchen showrooms while I'm here in L.A. but haven't made the time yet. Now you've got me real curious and interested. Who knows what other mysteries will unfold?
BTW, I've been reading a book on the early days in California. I also visitied an historical adobe house near where I'm staying here. It wasn't too long ago that they were living with dirt floors.
Less than one hundred years before I was born, around 1850, there were only a few thousand Europeans living in Los Angeles and the surrounding area. When my family arrived, in 1952, there were about 3 million. Now there are 10+ million.
The native people lived here in peace for more than ten thousand years, without the "benefit" of European "advancement". And we think we've improved on their way of life. Ha!
Nonetheless, I'm still interested in the cool new hardware from Blum. Thanks again.
I had a combination of shelves, drawers, and pull outs behind cabinet doors and they all have their place. I'll tell you where the pull out shelf hands down beats a plain drawer. I had one that was a single door with just one drawer all the way at the bottom. I kept my Kitchen Aid mixer down there, my Cuisinart, and a blender. And at the same time I was able to mount wall brackets on the side of the cabinet to hold my stick blender. It was easy to bend down and reach straight out to get that heavy Kitchen Aid off that pull out shelf, but it would have been hard to reach way down in a drawer tall enough to accommodate it. Not to mention the structural issues with a box that size. Only time I've seen a drawer full cabinet height was when it held a trash can suspended by it's lip on a surround.
Interesting idea, putting the Kitchen Aid mixer on a big pull out shelf. That's certainly a lot better than trying to stuff it into a drawer.
That brings up another good consideration, deciding exactly what small appliances will be used, then providing the best storage for each one.
I guess I'm the oddball here because I don't mind pull-outs behind doors, maybe because I lived for decades with fixed shelves. I have 8 pull-outs in my kitchen, plus a deep, recycling pull-out. The look of my pairs of raised panel doors far outweigh the minor inconvenience of having to open them before accessing the pull-outs. IMO, my kitchen would look ridiculous if all those doors were drawer fronts. As far as the nicks on the back of drawers, the solution is simple: I build the pull-out so that the front, which I make out of the primary wood of the kitchen, overhangs the drawer box by 1/2" on each side, thereby covering the Accurides I use for pull-outs. If/when the pull-out hits the back of the door it's wood to wood.
Re. the corner cabinet: I prefer kidney susans with the double door if it fits properly. A typical susan cabinet is 36" x 36" and if the space to a stove or sink cabinet is 40 or so inches, it's tough to make a susan work. For the upper corner I prefer a 45 degree front with susan hardware, but Rev-a-Shelf makes a D-shaped set that gives you much more storage than rounds shelves. #7012 is a free- swing unit; #6272 is an independent swing w/detentes but costs nearly double. The 20" trays will work in a 24" x 24".
For drawer guides I use Blum tandems almost exclusively. They're so smooth I can't imagine using anything else. I upcharge $20 per drawer and when my customers see them in action, they sell themselves. They also love the soft close devices that clip on the hinges.
I am finding more and more customers leaning towards drawers over doors, for functionality. I'm happy to give them what they want but I don't find the multiple drawer bank kitchens to be as attractive.
Thanks for describing your preferences in lazy susans and for the hardware info.
A few of you mentioned ways to handle the Kitchen Aid mixer. Another method I've used on 4 kitchens in the last couple years is a "Mixer Lift". Rev-a-Shelf's unit (#RAS-ML-HDCR) requires a 15" minimum opening in a base cabinet, with no drawer above. The mixer rides on heavy springs and hardware, moves up or down effortlessly, locks in at countertop height, and then drops back into its cabinet. There's little space for anything else and you must have an outlet in the cabinet but all my customers have been pleased with how easily they can access and then tuck away a heavy, awkward appliance. I was skeptical at first - it seemed like a lot of space to use up for one item - but I guarantee you I'll have one in my next kitchen.
Sounds like the old Mix Master will be getting a new life, courtesy of of Rev-A-Shelf.
One question comes to mind. I've noticed that the newer food processors are programmed to make dough, when required. Not being a baker of anything more than some occasional hand mixed biscuits or muffins, I wonder if that new food processor function takes the place of a big mixer?
I've installed a couple of those pop-up mixmaster shelves over the years. The only caution I'll offer is they can get a bit shaky if you use a dough hook to knead dough, though. I've heard of one releasing from the uplocked position, but I don't know if it was the mechanism or operator error.We use ours 3-4 days out of the week, so we decided to just leave ours on the countertop.
I think your reasoning about making good use of the additional countertop space which comes with deeper base cabinets (shown in the photo you posted earlier) solves our space questions about all the small appliances that we now use...and a few more besides.
Its all about the money!
Pot and pan drawers are great but a bit more $
Budget spec, standard cabinets with some pull out trays and maybe one pot and pan drawer, high end spec, pot and pan drawers in most spots if possible.
Custom-Let the client decide but they will likely put pot and pan drawers in most locations if budget allows.
I agree Jeff but even budget base cabinets with doors need some kind of pull out in the 21st century, don't you think?
Particularly the bottom shelf where access to the back half is near impossible. That's a lot of cubic feet going unused. There are some relatively inexpensive rolling rack systems, like those made by Rubbermaid but I don't know if they can be trusted, long term. http://www.rubbermaid.com/rubbermaid/kitchen/index.jhtml
Are there any other similar choices? If not, then large, deep drawers become the obvious answer...to me anyway. With pocket screws, making big drawers up is pretty simple and fast so I see it as a modern improvement whose time has come.
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BTW, did you get one of those drawing boards we discussed a few months ago?
Funny, in a low end spec, it is a nice feature, but if you spend an extra $180 on those features, unless your marketing person is pointing out those features and the benefit to the client, then the $180 would have been better spent at the strip joint. (or the bar, or wherever you like to spend your money)
OK, I believe you. Fortunately, this thread has brought up some better quality designs, using high end hardware. That's what I was after initially.
My intended level of quality is somewhere in the middle; basic frames and doors with drawers in the base cabinets, all using better hardware.
What're your choices in counter tops? Do you think that Formica will ever make a comeback?
Good
I am glad you are getting the good ideas.
Re. countertops-
I shop Formica and Granite for my clients if they are not sure.
75% of the ones who are not sure pick the Granite The others pick formica because of the value and because money is tight.
I think Formica has a place but granite pricing has gotten very competetive for the base grade stuff so people are attracted to it. Formica still looks good and people forget that the ugly formica they have is 20+ years old and still in not too bad shape so a well constructed formica top will last a long time.
I almost NEVER install Corian or the equiv. Granite is so close in price people prefer it. (and I am in Corian Country just 10 minutes from Delaware)
Nice to hear that granite has become competitively priced. I love the look, just never thought it would fit my budget.
shop it
Local companies will be all over the board on pricing, at least around here that is what I have found.
Thanks, I'll do that. Actually I'm a tightwad when it comes to materials. Having time off in the winter makes it easy to scout around and find good deals. Since the Internet came along it's even easier, if not as pleasant.
Here is a catalog of lots of all kinds of kitchen and other cabinet hardware. Including slides, pullouts, etc.http://wwhardware.com/While you can get an idea of what they have online, you really need the print catalog.Also Rocklers has some a bunch of stuff..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Thanks for the link Bill. I'll give them a call tomorrow and ask for a catalog.
If you guys use WWhardware, check out their HDL side. Same company, same warehouse, same products, same catalogue, but it's for contractors. Registering with them through the HDL side will give you a discount on the items, the difference is that you pay ACTUAL UPS shipping charges when you order through HDL, whereas you usually pay a flat shipping fee when you buy through the WWHardware side of the business. The savings can add up. A while ago I ordered in the neighborhood of 40 or 50 drawer slides, ordering through the WWH side would have cost me something like $1100 plus $10 shipping. Ordering through the HDL side they were something like $650, but shipping was $120. http://hdlusa.com/
Edited 9/13/2009 8:44 pm ET by Mongo
That is good to know.So far I have only gotten small orders from them. And found that their prices where very competitive as it was.have to remember HDL if I need a large order..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
I really like the new a drawer base cabinets that i've seen. They basically have a peg board at the bottom to accept (you guessed it) pegs to seperate the kitchen debris.
Seems like it would make organization alot easier.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.