Here’s the scenario – I bid to install cabinets and doors in 4 townhouse conversion units. I was surprised the contractor took my bid, it wasn’t a lowball bid. I could have made pretty good money, but the cabinet order was screwed up royally by Home Depot’s cabinet salesperson. And the jobsite itself is major disorganized. Trades out of sequence, too many trades at one time, lack of planning, etc.
Still, I made out OK. And there are 25 more units to go, if these sell, and its looking real good so far. The general contractor is apparently doing the job on a cost-plus basis. Progress payments regularly, the owners and contractor rave about my work, and so far, no questions on any extras I’ve submitted. Overall, a lot of plusses, despite the frustrating lack of organization.
So the general calls me this week: Hey, we need baseboard installed before the painter gets here! Duh. I asked them about baseboard weeks ago, no one seemed to know anything. I said get some baseboard, and call me back. He calls back at 1 pm, and wants to know can I start right away – meaning sooner than tomorrow.
I drop what I’m doing and go over, and start installing baseboard. But this is my biggest “extra”, and I’m not sure how to figure it. The baseboard is 3 1/2″ MDF. The two-bdrm unit is about 330 lin. ft. of baseboard, the 3-bdrm unit is about 370 lin. ft. Real cut-up, lots of niches and nooks and offset walls, small closets, etc. Lots of crap on the walls and floor that has to be scraped.
I want to charge about 650 for the small unit, and about 950 for the bigger one. Its not all that much bigger, but its much more labor, more little pieces. I’m not a production guy, just a carpenter who does a lot of different things. I doubt they’ll question my price. And it should be high enough to reflect the short notice, crappy conditions, etc. But I want to stay on everyone’s good side, lots more work coming up. And like I say, I’m not a production guy. So my price will probably tend to be on the high side. Which is why I’m having second thoughts on this one, and want some input.
(Did I give enough info? Too much info?)
What do you think would be a fair price for Bakersfield Calif?
“he…never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too” – Mark Twain
Edited 6/21/2006 11:02 pm by Huck
Replies
That's a tough one. I was tempted to say $99,545.60 but then I thought about it some more.
Sounds like you have been working on a fixed price basis on the four installs so far and that you haven't had to bill by the hour, so don't start now.
I would take your hourly rate (you have one, I assume), multiply it by the hours worked, add 25% and see if that seems like a palatable number. I would not throw them a hardball on this, I would bill enough to make it worth it but bear in mind that you want more work from them and you do not want to be a guy who charged a fortune when they were in a jam.
Sounds high to me but it depends. The floor and wall scraping could add up. What is it, about a one day job for each unit? Cant be more than 3 days for both. Thats over 500 a day. A little steep for installing a one piece base. Maybe theres more to it though.
Huck
I never tell anyone else what they should charge but my initial reaction to your price was that it was a bit high.
How long did it take you to do the job?
What's the going rate in your hood for running base?
I know around here(not suggesting that has anything to do with your area)that I can get generic base run for approx $1 a foot.
Doug
I don't know for sure, because I don't do base very much, but I'm guessing about the same here. But I can beat the quality of most production guys around here. I figure they expect to pay more for me, they know they're getting better quality. And the $1/ft. guys aren't going to drop what they're doing and come out on a moment's notice. And they aren't going to stop and do the drywall repairs, add the missing cornerbead, etc. like I do. And they don't want you to call them until you're ready, and then they want you to keep everyone else out of the way.
It's about 3 days work for two units, but looong days. With tile guys, sales people, potential buyers, decorators, painters, etc. tromping in and out, borrowing tools, asking questions, being in my way and me being in their way. And the crap on the walls and floors - ugh! And old nails from the old baseboard, and old caulking from the old (smaller) baseboard. All this in 100 degree weather, with no air circulation because the painters have visqueened all the windows, and that pernicious MDF dust clinging to my sweaty body all day (honesty, whose idea was it to trim a house in CARDBOARD!)
Anyway, guess I'm just tired and grouchy from a long day. I'll probably come down a little on the price before I bill them. I just feel that when you call someone up and say "Hey come down and do this right away and just bill me," you should expect to pay more than if you put it out to bid. I've had to do some fancy footwork to get out of other commitments to get to their project on such short notice.
I'm not billing an hourly rate on the extras - just attempting to match the rate I would bid the work. I did do a few extras at $50/hr., but I like to make more than that when there are extenuating circumstances that merit it. I appreciate everyone's input, and I'll make some adjustments accordingly. I'm thinking I'll go $575 on the 2 bdrm, and $775 on the 3.
"he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
Edited 6/22/2006 1:10 am by Huck
If you can get that kind of Dough, my math $1.75 & $2.10 a lin.ft., your my hero! Not to say your price is high, my motto, "what ever the market will bear". We have been doing Townhomes for many a year, & the Slap Dancing Piece Workers get about .35 a lin.ft to Install the same stuff.
A crew of 2 will trim out 1100-1500 sq.ft MDF Palace, in a day, if it has an open hand rail they get 2 days & an extra $750 for the rail ( think townhouse many stair steps). On the standard units I would guess that the installers get about $800 a unit for the trim job.
No heroism involved. The job is not going the low-bid route, although one down the street did, and the general has commented on how poor the finish work is. Butt joints at the corners, sloppy workmanship, etc. I haven't seen it.
I have had to put up with unending delays at every step of this job, and they know my prices reflect this. Still, I'm not gouging either.
Two guys one day, sounds like I'm not much different from the production guys timewise. And at $800 a unit, sounds like I'm less expensive. Don't know how that could be, since you say my prices are high. I must've misunderstood something there. At .35 / lin. ft., they'd be charging about $100 per unit, not $800."he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
The $800 is the price for the full trim job. Doors, windows, case, base & closets.
I have absolutly no idea on the price, but one thing I think you could do is put in your bill all those extra difficulties you had on these units, and then say what could be done about them on the other units and say if all these things are done then the price would be lower by X dollars. Things like having a laborer go through and scrap the gunk off, pull any protruding nails, whatever.
This makes you sound like someone who is trying to help them lower their costs and still keep high quality work going.
I like what Bryan is telling you. Good idea.
It justifies why your cost are what they are and gives them an oportunity to do something about it if they so desire.
Lets them know that your trying to help them keep there cost down yet you get what you feel you deserve.
Doug
I'm not sure I agree. I can see where it just might open up a can of worms. For example, they say the next unit is ready and are expecting a lower price, but when he gets there, it's not really ready at all.
Or, they look at the factors that affected the price and think "hey, that shouldn't have cost that much to prep those walls".
Either way, it seems like it could be risky. And, of course, there's the issue of whether or not they really want to know.
-Don
I agree with that last part. I think it's better to spend little or no time talking about problems, and just solve them instead. Name your price, do the job, don't give people headaches.
Some guys I know price base at $50 per room. I've priced base by the sq/ft for years, never linear. The $50 per room works out to be about the same on average, and is suprisingly simple.
Use your finger as a spacer to raise the base 3/8" in areas to be carpeted.
Scrape as little as possible, Its not your problem.
May neighbors respect You, and troubles neglect You.
Gord
I like your $50/room system. It works out pretty well for this job: 12 rooms in the small unit, 16 rooms in the larger unit. 600 and 800, respectively. I was thinking 575 for the small unit, 775 for the large, sounds like we're on the same page.
The nice thing on this job, price has not yet come up as an issue yet, not even once. The general contractor (who appreciates that I've saved his but from problems resulting from his poor planning several times) has told me: "Just keep writing this stuff up as extras - I'll keep stamping it approved and sending it on!"
"he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
Edited 6/23/2006 2:58 am by Huck
Well your first prices seem a bit high, your second seem a bit better. For 3 1/4" MDF one rule of thumb was .70 to 1.00 Lnft, that's great when you're slapping down 16' pieces. Doesn't hold for a unit with 200lnft but is broken up into 400/ 6 inch pieces. Like someone said before figure about what you have for time multiply by your hourly and add 10-25% to cover the prep and adverse conditions.
"Just keep writing this stuff up as extras - I'll keep stamping it approved and sending it on!"
That right there should tell you that your OK on your price.
Doug
It also sounds like it should tell you that someone else is actually signing the checks.
It also sounds like he either has a very sweet deal going or he is going to go bankrupt.
I agree completely.
If you want to compete with production trimmers, then price your job as they would and cut corners as they would. Anytime you're competing on price, you'll hoping not to be undercut by someone willing to work for nothing.
Personally, I'd be better off competing on quality since that's what I like to do. It's hard to feel a sense of accomplishment by throwing trim like a mad man.
Bid it high, do good work, fix problems without being asked, cash the check.
great words of advice ...
plus ... never price one job in hopes of another.
wouldn't hurt to tell them ... not on paper ... that "next time" ... with more notice and better prep ... he can maybe kinda sorta see if he can sharpen the pencil a bit ... as time is money and organization makes the world go 'round.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
"Bid it high, do good work, fix problems without being asked, cash the check."
Couldn't have said it better myself. Its been working so far on this job, so I figure, if it ain't broke, don't fix it! I do itemize all the fix-its on my "extras" invoices, so the owners at least know what they're paying for.
I don't explain how they could save costs, tho, because it comes down to the general being more organized and better manned. But I don't want to share those truths that put him in a bad light, because he's the one who hired me, and who writes my paychecks on this job!"he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
a little aside ... I was working for a company in a similar manner ... in a similar situation. They had so much work I turned my best bud on to them also.
I'll be back there sooner or later ... as I've had other work to attend to ...
but ... after a brief "adjustment period" ... where I think they were trying to make me adjust my prices ... then they finally adjusted to me prices ... things were'are great.
my buddy is still there charging my rates ... and everyone if finally on the same page.
Yer right ... if it ain't broke ... don't attempt to fix it.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
a very wize sales guru once told me ...
"don't be afraid of the money"!
and each time I'm not ... I'm never disappointed!
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa