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Replies
Deep enough to bury the bodies.
Generally, you build a basement out of cement.
Andy
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
do you add water, sand and gravel to that cement or just cement. 2+3=7
just cement!
You have a block walled house don't you? Where I come from that's the way they did(basement walls) a lot of houses in the 50's and 60's.
The mason that we use down here in Texas is from Rochester, NY and he says that they are still doing concrete block basement walls back home.
Doug
Edited 1/9/2006 9:24 pm ET by DougU
Generally, you start with a hole in the ground.
You pullin' our collective legs, Johnny?
You pullin' our collective legs, Johnny?it sound like I am but i do have a point to this.. 2+3=7
So what is yer point?????????????????
Is the subject TOO DEEP?
do you wish to CEMENT your relationship?
are you BLOCKED in??
are your finances on a good FOUNDATION?????
or a good FOOTING????
is all SQUARED away???
is this too high and DRY???
"Sir! You are drunk!"
"Madam! You are ugly, and tomorrow I shall be sober!!" Winston Churchill
You build it in New Orleans and the first floor is called a basement...
A foundation is always a good way to start.
You get yerself a really good shovel.
Then you shovel away everything that doesn't look like basement.
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
This is a hoot! What a productive thread! LOL!
Is this like the November custom of asking 5 year olds how to cook a trukey?
Get the turkey, put bread inside, put in the oven at 15000 degrees for 34 hours.
Start by taking all the top soil off. Wait... start by setting a bencjmark for elevation, then get rid of the topsoil.
Make a big flat bottomed hole where you want the basement, compact it to 95+%. dig wide trenches where you want your footings. Have a soils engineer inspect/test them. Compact them. Fill them with engineered soil, Driveway topping is what I use, trying to get my supplier to mix fly ash with it, compacted in lifts. Dig trenches in the ES the size of the footings.
Iron and pour the footings with a keyway in 'em. I like to mono pour a 8" stemwall on top of the footings to set the basement wall on, it keeps the cold joint well above the drains. For walkout footings, I pour a rectangular footing, 'crete in a ditch is cheaper than forms.
Xypex the walls, add Cosella Dorken, place clean gravel in Geo filter up to 1' below grade on the perimeter and gutter drains. Top with clay, then topsoil, all graded away from the house. The top 1' of wall gets a decorative color coat of stucco color or sanded tile grout.
I run #6 bar 3" from the bottom of the footings and #4 in a 12" OC grid 3" from the inside of the walls. 10"+ walls get 2 grids of steel, #" and 6" from the inside. Except the walkout footing, it gets just enough vert pieces to hold the top ribbons in place.
All outside corners get chamfer strips, horizontal and verticle.
I'm garunteeing my walls to NOT STRUCTURALLY CRACK and to be dry.
I'ld like to find a source for that rubber/poly/some plastic extruded ribbon used in commercial jobs to place at the footing/wall joint.
Mud is 8" slump 4500# 1" aggregate air entrained with super plastisizer added at the site.
Really nice work, Sam.I like the fly ash idea. Never heard of that before, but I think I'll try it.
Sam,Evidently I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to good quality basements. Please humor me with some answers."Fill them with engineered soil, Driveway topping is what I use, trying to get my supplier to mix fly ash with it, compacted in lifts. Dig trenches in the ES the size of the footings."You already compacted the footers, why add the ES? And could gravel serve the same function as the ES?And in general, but specifically regarding the steel size and amount, do you do all your basements like this? I wouldn't say it sounds like overkill because I know the foundation can often be problematic. But it sure is a lot more than what I see most of the time. Is your approach "belt and suspenders" or do you feel that all elements are essential?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon,
Belt and suspenders. Problematic soils. Expansive clay, sandy gravel, springs, underground streams,and sinkholes in the same dig. Garunteed crack free.
Here's my 30 second commercial:
I build footings and foundations. . . Basements. . . Like a rock. I chose this specialty because I was tired of seeing all the mistakes commonly made. When I'm done, you will live confidant that your basement walls won't settle, crack, or leak. You will know that you won't be having to pay the framers extra, because my walls are plumb, level, and square. I don't cut corners. I do everything right, so I'm not cheap. In fact, because of the care and quality I put into my work, I'm probably one of the most expensive.
What I say when someone asks, "So, what do you do?"
Compacting the virgin soil under the ES. . .I erred in my last post, I don't compact it to a standard, I do compact the ES to 95%. . . The light pre-compaction is so I will have a knowledge of how the virgin soil will hold up. If any part of it acts different from the rest, I may over dig the trench for the ES.
As you know, the loading forces are dispersed in about a 45* angle outward thru the underlying soil. Ideally, at the bottom of any compaction the load is equal to or less than what the undisturbed soil can support with no plastic deformation.
All ES must be compacted, gravel is NOT self compacting, it is merely almost compacted when dropped into place. What we use for driveway topping here is straight run 3/4- . . . temporarily lost the name of the material. . .soft white alkyline ph'ed sedimentary rocks that self bond under time, pressure, and moisture.
SamT
Sam,Why trench, fill with engineered soil, trench again and pour footers? Is virgin soil not sufficient?If you had to omit some of the elements you described, which ones would you choose first?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Don't overdig the footing trench, hand shovel loose soil out, compact native soil to 95%+ compaction, form footings with 2x10, reinforce, pour. If native soil is wet, heavy clay, expansive, or otherwise unsuitable (consult your local friendly engineer), overdig 12", compact anyway, line footing trench with 3' wide strips of woven geotextile, install 12" depth of crushed stone, compact stone (YES, it can be compacted - more like 'settled'), form, reinforce and pour.
I am making the assumption that the ES takes the place of formboards. I am not convinced that that's appropriate - footings should have drains right to the base of the footing, surrounded with crushed stone, fabric and daylighted. If on a flat site and the drain can't be daylighted, then a sump pit should be installed. By placing and compacting engineered soil and then digging precise footing trenches within it, you are not allowing anywhere for ground and surface water to go.
Jon E (PE)
Edit: Additional comments:
- Somewhat overreinforced unless your soils are really crap. #4 at 16" o.c. vertical, 24" horizontal should be fine for a standard 8" wall.
- I like the stemwall idea. Nice touch. And, easier to waterproof with a flexible membrane.
- I assume you're in an area with minimal (if any) frost penetration. Walkout footings need to be frost protected, either with a stepped footing or a rubble-trench under the footing (and insulation).
- 8" slump is soup. However, with that much steel in the wall, you almost need that much slump to get the concrete through that maze (especially with 1" aggregate). You might find that a 4" slump, 3/4" stone, 3500-lb mix will be more than sufficient, keep the super-P for workability and drop the AE. And you didn't mention vibration, which might not be necessary in an 8" slump, but again - with that much steel, I'd be somewhat surprised if you didn't have some substantial voids without vibration.
Edited 1/10/2006 9:08 pm ET by JonE
Jon,
The garuntee.
The ES.
The rebar.
The waterproofing.
The admixes.
The concrete.
SamT
Sam,Thanks for your help in educating this neophyte.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
1. select site
2. dig 24"x24"x36" hole
3. insert shaped charge
4. prime charge
5. plug ears
6. "Fire in the hole"
7. retain public defender
8. gain two years' experience making big rocks into little rocks
9. drop conex in resulting hole
10. backfill
11. park trailer on conex roof
12. hang bug zapper & velvet elvis to complete decor
Edited 1/12/2006 12:13 am ET by EightyDeuce
Is there really the kind of soils that ES is used much in the Columbia area?
Bill,
Here in Boone Co, The only requirements are 2 #4 in the footings and an 8" wall. All the concrete here is "Garunteed to crack."
AFAIK, I am the only one who does NOT give that particular garuntee.
SamT
Are poured basement walls 8 inches thick or 10? I know at some high they are bumped to a thicker thickness.
8" 10" 12". . . depends on height, length, and soil conditions,
Take two asprin and call your engineer in the morning.
SamT
Now Sam . . . was that really that complex of a question?
Really? Why didn't you just say you did not know the answer?
i know how to build a basment call in the pros
so i just use the phone
68109.32 in reply to 68109.12
Are poured basement walls 8 inches thick or 10? I know at some high they are bumped to a thicker thickness.
68109.42 in reply to 68109.33
Now Sam . . . was that really that complex of a question?
Really? Why didn't you just say you did not know the answer?
ROTFLMFAO
SamT
Still don't know the answer, ya. LOL!
As proven above, his point is: You ask a half-arse question, you get half-arse responses. Or worse.
DG/Builder
Johnny
Anybody in your area have a basement?
Your soil/ground isnt all that rocky is it?
Doug
Brownie: Preferably before you build the house on the same spot!
Just remember - most jobs you start at the bottom & work your way up. Digging a hole is the reverse.
Don
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
I tell all of my new guys that they are going to start at the top.
Cat: You ever hear the old joke about asking a question that you must answer yourself? First guy asks how a rabbit digs a hole? Answers himself - like all other jobs, starts at the bottom. Second guy asks in surprise - How does he get down there to start? First guy responds -
well, that's your question - what's your answer?DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
Looking at you signature, is etching tempered glass any different than etching regular glass?
Matt: You better believe it, Poopsie! You must be extremely careful when etching tempered glass. I sandblast to do my etching. Cut through the stressed skin layer on a tempered piece & you have a basket full of sherds. Untempered glass cam be etched very deeply w/o any problems, matter of fact, you can blast all the way through it safely. The thicker the tempered glass, the greater the margin of safety you have on depth of etching. If you use the etching creams available in craft stores you are safe. It is almost impossible to do anything other than frost the surface w/ them. If your IQ is low enough to use hydrofluoric acid (In my book the MOST dangerous industrial chemical known and NOT to be used by anyone not specifically trained in its use and prepared w/ appropriate safety equipment & process equipment) you may be able to etch through the surface & activate the internal stresses to shatter the piece. When I do tempered glass, I only do a surface etch enough to make the surface uniformly dense.When etching tempered glass, you have two choices - etch only the surface AFTER it is tempered; or, etch it FIRST then have it tempered. No etcher in their right mind does the latter on a large piece covered w/ complex, difficult patterns on it. Risk of failure during tempering is too great - then you get to do it over, and whoever gets to absorb the cost of the re-do is unhappy. One reason you pay an apparently exorbinant price for a simple, unetched shower door slab is the risk of breakage during tempering. The risk of tempering an already etched slab is even greater because of all the sharp discontinuities at the edges of the edging. No tempering company will warrant their tempering for more than the cost of the glass blank - the value added by your etching is not covered.Want to know what time it is?DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
No idea. <G>OK, let's hear it so I can take that one to work, too. <G>
Cat: You obviously missed the point YOU are supposed to answer the question.Have a good day contemplating the answer.Oh, BTW, when you come up w/ the answer, would you tell me the meaning of life?DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
Oh crap. <G>Now you know what I'll be thinking about all day tomorrow as I'm loading trucks.Gee, thanks Don. <G>
Cat: Glad I could help your day. Any time, I assure you.DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
I'm not a basement dude. However, 15 years ago when I moved to NC I noticed that they were still building basements out of "cinder block". Back in VA any modern house with a basement used poured concrete walls. So I asked someone about building basements and was told "Oh - no, we don't build too many basements down here - they always leak - it's because of the soil." My response: "the reason they always leak is because you all don't know how to build them..." OK - maybe I didn't say it, but I definitely thought it... Not to say that a block basement will not work out, just more that poured concrete walls work out better almost every time. Now aday here, poured basements here are the norm, and I think more basements are in demand probably because of the influx of northerners.
Also you have to install a serious water proofing system that includes either daylighted drains or a sump pump with a generator or something for those times when you really need the pump...
Still thinking about a hurricane shelter? Seems like above ground would be better. Either that, or make the footers out of Styrofoam for floatation...
the winner of the milkbones
. 2+3=7
In that case, I'd seriously consider ICF. They make a quite comfortable space that is easy to finish and easy to warm up and dry out if it needs any of that at all (I'm thinking the occupants might).The seal between the footing and the wall that SamT was talking about is an irregularly shaped plastic fin that you cast into the footing and leave it sticking up so it is also cast into the wall.Go to;http://www.whitecapdirect.comand searchPVC Waterstops, there is a whole page of them.For severe conditions they have;6"x3/16" TPE WATERSTOP 483JP636TPETremco also makes a bentonite clay waterstop that comes in strips, also available from Whitecap p/n 557-523050 or 557-55306(I tried to paste the link but the computer did something weird.)The cold joint at the footing to wall connection is one of the places you see a problem, the other is water coming under the footings and up through or around the slab due to the pressure of the water.If there is water in the ground already a lot of times this can be addressed with a layer of stone and a sheet of puncture-resistant plastic under the slab and a sump pump.In your case auxilliary power for the pump is probably essential.As SamT said, the keyway is good. A keyway and a seal would be ideal.Cold joints can be effectively addressed in such applications with a dash coat of slurry made from half water, half Anti-Hydro, and enough Portland cement to make a runny slip. Blow all of the dust and dirt off of the footing and just throw the dash coat in there right before you place the wall.As for the concrete in the wall itself, I'm guessing you know a little more about that than the average bear, I don't suppose you need any advice. Just a guess. <G>
First, you find or make a flat spot. Into the flat spot you make a hole. You over pay soem clowns to come out and prove the hole ain't big enough yet. Make the hole bigger.
Ask everyone if this is the final layout as you're not making the hole a different shape, not at all, nosiree.
Fill the hole with various kinds of "stuff." Bits of concrete, block of other stuff, foam, formwork, whatever. Convert the "stuff" into some sort of organized structure.
E'erybody and their thrid cousin shows up with a change to make in whacha just built. Cope with the complete changes that introduces (see previous, above).
Apply water proofing to outside; set drains within & without--consulting AHJ for necessary inspections throughout, natch'. Backfill.
Take 02:00 minutes to marvel at the wondrous thing you just did, and coverit up with, then cover with a building.
Easy.
Por que you ask?
<<You over pay soem clowns to come out . . .>>I thought we were over in the "You Might Be A Redneck" thread until I read that part.Those clowns show up for free. Heck, some of them even bring their own beer. <G>
Great thread, almos burst a gut laughing. You have to have a sense of humour or life will drive you crazy. Let's not confuse the issue with facts!
Heck, some of them even bring their own beer. <G>
That's precisely the sort of theodolite-armed, programmed the digital box hung-over, types that have scared me a time or two. "Oh yeah, that corner stake we set before was wrong, this is right, now."
(And, it's never a situation where you get to pick the rocket scientists, either . . . )Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Good thread.
Which has me wondering
Hows come my stupid questions dont get such good responses? Er, uh. Hmm. That's a catch 22 ain't it?
Matt - Fly ash. This I find interesting. I know less than little and more than bupkis on this other than the hubbub I heard that the local U (which has always been huge on all things concrete) had done some experimentation with Fly Ash as an aggregate in poured concrete and liked the results. Beyond that . . . all guesswork. If you know more, do share.
Also lived in the south. Also heard the " they leak" argument. Which was supported by expansive soils, and a soil engineer of sorts I worked with told me once that basically yes, that creates more problems, but not impossible. So here, we punch a hole in the ground, add a sump pit and drain tile, pour the walls and the pad, backfill with what came out, and most of the time, good to go.
But I'm concerned about that other small percentage of the time. Which is a way of asking what additional measures, since they wouldn't be "typical" cost wise here, might be worthwhile nevertheless. As in, you're paying more for this but this is the insurance policy we're putting in the ground for you.
"A bore is a man who, when you ask him how he is, tells you." -Bert Taylor
RW,
From here:SummaryFly ash is a fine, glass-like powder recovered from gases created by coal-fired electric power generation. U.S. power plants produce millions of tons of fly ash annually, which is usually dumped in landfills. Fly ash is an inexpensive replacement for portland cement used in concrete, while it actually improves strength, segregation, and ease of pumping of the concrete. Fly ash is also used as an ingredient in brick, block, paving, and structural fills.
U.S.Code AcceptanceThe first ASTM specification for fly ash cement was written in the 1950s, and amended in 1977 to include Class C fly ash from Western coal. Fly ash cement is ASTM listed and approved as a mineral admixture for use in mortar, patching, and structural concrete
very nice. Thank you
"A bore is a man who, when you ask him how he is, tells you." -Bert Taylor
1. Dig a big ol' hole in the ground.
2. Fill 'er up to the top w/ cement (will take 40-45 truck loads for a 1,000 sf house).
3. Go drinking w/ your buddies while it cures (might be months).
4. This is by far the hardest part......Chisel out a hole in the middle whatever size you need (trying not to get closer than 8-12" from the outside of the conc).
NOTE. See if you can get the buddies from #3 to help w/ #4.