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Discussion Forum

Basement walls crumbling

mizshredder2 | Posted in General Discussion on February 5, 2005 07:25am

OK, these pics are of the basement walls in my Mom’s house in NE Wisconsin.  As best we can ascertain, the house is about 80 y/o.  A friend and I have been talking about these and it may be that these type of basement walls are called “rubble stone”…

Core issue is my Mom’s progressively declining health.  She’s been living alone and very independent for a long time and doing so is a point of pride for her.  So for first time ever, she is talking about selling the house (which is a blunt acknowledgement of her mortality and impending realities) and my sibs and I are looking at all the pragmatic issues.

We are not sure if the current state of the basement walls will scare away potential buyers.  That’s the impetus for this thread.  Whether to try and “fix” them (and how), or at the least, be able to tell potential buyers what the deal with them is.

Appreciate any comments, suggestions.  Hope the pics help show the disintegration of the “joint” material.  (I’ve tried to resize the jpgs to show detail without being too large for those on dial up.)  But it is crumbling and leaving piles of – well, like a…fine sand…and (non-rock) chunks of that original filler stuff…around the floor’s perimeter of the entire basement. 

Oh yeah – years ago all the basement walls had fresh paint on them, and still have residual paint on 90% of the wall surface area.  But as you can see, that is not stopping the disintegration of the walls. 

Also – after a 4 hour cleanup and inspection while I was there in December, there is no evidence of water leakage, or water stains, anywhere.

 

“The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.”   – Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam

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Replies

  1. mizshredder2 | Feb 05, 2005 08:14pm | #1

    Do ya think I should have posted this in another folder?  If so, where?

    "The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
    Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit
    Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
    Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it."   - Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam

    1. User avater
      IMERC | Feb 05, 2005 08:49pm | #2

      so what would be wrong with this folder???

      looks to be high lime content mortar and time is taking it's toll...

      scrape  / dig out the loose and reparge / paint.... basically stucco the walls...

      add some white vinegar to the powder and if ya get a lot of fizzing activity there's a good chance that you got high lime content...

      best guess it's just out lived it's life... lotta elbow grease to fix is all...

      proud member of the FOR/FOS club...

      Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming

      WOW!!!   What a Ride!

      1. mizshredder2 | Feb 05, 2005 09:17pm | #5

        so what would be wrong with this folder???

        Apparently... nothing!  (just wasn't sure is all!)

        looks to be high lime content mortar and time is taking it's toll...

        scrape  / dig out the loose and reparge / paint.... basically stucco the walls...

        What is "reparge"?  (ok, I'm off to google shortly)

        add some white vinegar to the powder and if ya get a lot of fizzing activity there's a good chance that you got high lime content...

        OK, I did bring back some baggies of the filler stuff.  Just crushed and strained some, put in bowl, added undiluted white vinegar...not a "white" fizzing... but definitely it is bubbling.

        best guess it's just out lived it's life... lotta elbow grease to fix is all...

        "outlived it's life" ? 

         yowzah - are ya saying it is "failing" and walls/fdn in immediate need of fix?  I mean, this is the stuff that's holding it all together, after all...

        1. User avater
          IMERC | Feb 05, 2005 10:21pm | #8

          What is "reparge"?  (ok, I'm off to google shortly)

          CRS won't let me recall a sealent that can be sprayed on to stabilize what you have after the scraping to give ya base to work from... Parge is nothing more than plastering the walls with a product of choice... Sand mix (crude), mortar (OK I guess) stucco - pick yur finish (more better).... as soon as I find it... link coming up...

          OK, I did bring back some baggies of the filler stuff.  Just crushed and strained some, put in bowl, added undiluted white vinegar...not a "white" fizzing... but definitely it is bubbling.

          you been limed...

          Again...best guess it's just out lived it's life... lotta elbow grease to fix is all... the core or what is under the top coat of loose flaking stuff should be fine... A new top coat should stablize the core and you'd be good to go fer another 100 years or so...

          "outlived it's life" ? 

           yowzah - are ya saying it is "failing" and walls/fdn in immediate need of fix?  I mean, this is the stuff that's holding it all together, after all...

          the need of a fix is certain... when do we leave for this adventure???? Shall I stop at the El Rey store... the stuff is made right here in town...

          BTW... is the basement empty enough to do a shotcrete style or spray on application

          got time.... here's some reading fer ya... AND if you want I'll email ya an insde addy to a real Mr KNOW IT ALL...

          El Rey - Welcome

          EL REY STUCCO COMPANY, INC. was founded in 1968 and is now one of the largest blendedcement product manufacturers in the Southwestern United States. ...

          http://www.elrey.com/ - 5k - similar pages - add to favorites

          El Rey - Choosing Stucco

          ... EL REY STUCCO COMPANY, INC'S INSUL-FLEX EIFS consists of expanded polystyrene,INSUL-BOND basecoat and either an acrylic modified cement based finish coat ...

          http://www.elrey.com/choosingstucco.htm - 19k - similar pages - add to favorites [ More results from http://www.elrey.com ]

          Custom Masonry Supply--El Rey Stucco

          Visit El Rey Stucco's Website. http://www.elrey.com/. Home-NaturalStone-Harristone-Brick and Pavers-El Rey Stucco-Masonary Tools ...

          http://www.cmsupply.com/EL_REY_Stucco.htm - 16k - similar pages - add to favorites

          proud member of the FOR/FOS club...

          Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming

          WOW!!!   What a Ride!

          1. mizshredder2 | Feb 06, 2005 07:43pm | #25

            "when do we leave for this adventure????"

            LOL! I wish I had your ease of UP and GO, lifestyle.  Such a kind offer.

            Instead, my reality is scheduling time outta the office to deal with only the highest priority personal items, at present.   (E.G. It's Sunday and we've got a videotelconference with HQ this morning at 1100 CST due to current project activities...thankfully, I at least get to stay home and just be dialed in!)

            And from what I'm reading here, these basement walls at Mom's should still be standing for a least a few more months...and believe you me, dead of winter in NE WI is not a fun time to be working in unheated spaces...

            And thanks to the good folk here, I am now of the opinion this wall work can hold off for a bit yet...

            "The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,Moves on: nor all your Piety nor WitShall lure it back to cancel half a Line,Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it."   - Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam

          2. User avater
            goldhiller | Feb 06, 2005 07:51pm | #27

            Let me add this, too. Shoulda said so before.If the walls are constantly shedding some sand, then parging is definitely appropriate. No fun to do, but appropriate nonetheless. IMO, no reason to be "concerned" about the integrity of the foundation we see in the pics.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.

          3. UncleDunc | Feb 06, 2005 08:33pm | #30

            >> If the walls are constantly shedding some sand, then parging is definitely appropriate.If the walls are constantly shedding some sand, then the mortar is failing. Eventually all the mortar will turn back into loose sand. When that happens - or actually some time before that happens - the stones will no longer be connected to each other, and there will no longer be a foundation, just a rock pile that - temporarily - looks like a foundation. All parging will do is keep the loose sand off the floor.I'm not saying the foundation is going to collapse this winter or even this decade. I am saying that in a sense, the foundation has already failed and collapse is certain, if not imminent. If you parge over the shedding, then the collapse, when it occurs, is going to be a dreadful surprise for somebody, instead of a situation that can be monitored and a fix planned for.There are good arguments for not fixing the problem right now, but in my humble opinion, there are no good arguments for cocealing it. I can hardly believe the Fine Homebuilders here are talking about covering up a symptom and ignoring the underlying problem.

          4. DougU | Feb 06, 2005 09:18pm | #31

            Uncle Dunc

            I'm with you. No parging.

            To a certain extent, that is.

             If all you are doing is masking the problem then your right, you need to make sure you do it with the proper material.

            My walls are sandstone, they are shedding but that has nothing to do with the mortar, has to do with the sandstone.

            I do agree with what Goldhiller says about the potential buyer.

            Old homes require a certain person.

            Miz S. Of course your realtor is going to suggest that you do something about the walls, it makes it easier for them to sell the house.

            Doug

          5. User avater
            goldhiller | Feb 06, 2005 09:51pm | #32

            All of my research over the years concerning this issue has resulted in the same basic conclusion/information.......it depends. That is one point that all the "experts" seem to agree upon. Assessment of a stone foundation and what it needs to remain viable isn't a one size fits all deal. None of what I've read suggests that the repair and preservation of old stone foundations is an exact science. There are guidelines to follow that are based on experiential evidence only and there are also certain factors that are set and defined by the laws of physics. Some old stone foundations were dry-laid and some mortared.
            Some live in wet environments and the water must be allowed to freely pass thru while others live in a relatively dry environment and so wouldn't face the same deterioration prospects from "remedy" X,Y or Z.If your statement about the stones of this particular foundation being in a state of "failure" because they are "no longer fastened together" is true, then every dry-laid foundation was a failure from the moment every stone was laid. What's notable about this is that these "failed" foundations have somehow managed to support their respective houses for long, long time. Some for hundreds of years.Some "experts" claim that the purpose of the mortar was to hold the stone apart, others say to hold them together and yet others say both. Note that the type of stone used doesn't necessarily vary from one laid dry to one that's mortared. The difference in these situations then becomes one of using mortar or driven smaller stones to help distribute and carry the load. Ever try to push two pieces of board together that have sand in between them? Even if the "binding" lime in a wall is dissolved/dissolving, if we can prevent the sand from escaping, then that sand remains load-bearing.MizShredder hasn't said anything about water encroachment problems and the pics don't show any anything significant in that regard either. I would conclude that the sand and lime aren't being washed out of the wall, but rather are "falling out" of the wall. Accordingly, I would conclude albeit from afar, that parging the interior of these walls wouldn't jeopardize the integrity of the wall by increasing hydraulic pressure from the exterior side. Ideally, if water problems were present, one would excavate the exterior side and parge there as well, but there's no evidence at this point of this situation to support the expense of doing so, in my mind.Nothing is forever….no matter what……period. Dust to dust and ashes to ashes. Judgments must be made as to what is appropriate at any given moment in any given situation. Money plays a role here, as it does everywhere, whether we like it or not. I don't put a new engine or transmission or rebuild the existing stuff in every used car or truck I want to sell just because it would then be a "better" value for the purchaser. Nor do I pour sand in the crankcase, but I hardly think that parging the interior walls of the basement described is going to accelerate deterioration or cause sudden unseen catastrophic failure for someone in the future. Exactly the opposite really. I feel it will be preserving. Nor do I approve of the common practice of throwing some vinyl siding over a house fraught with serious problems so I can fool some "pigeon" into buying it. Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.

            Edited 2/6/2005 2:23 pm ET by GOLDHILLER

          6. UncleDunc | Feb 06, 2005 10:38pm | #34

            >> Ever try to push two pieces of board together that have sand in between them?Now try pushing a stone across a board, once with nothing between the stone and the board and then again with a layer of sand between them.In a perfect world, with perfectly horizontal bearing surfaces and perfectly vertical and non-vibrating load, sand captured behind parging might be load bearing. I don't think it is in any foundation made by human hands. If someone proposed to sell you a brand new stone foundation laid with sand (or sand loosely bound with lime) and parged, would you buy it? I wouldn't.>> ... I hardly think that parging the interior walls of the basement described is going to
            >> accelerate deterioration or cause sudden unseen catastrophic failure for someone in the
            > future.I agree. I never suggested that parging would would accelerate or cause a problem, only that it would conceal an existing problem.>> Nor do I approve of the common practice of throwing some vinyl siding over a house fraught
            >> with serious problems so I can fool some "pigeon" into buying it.I agree with that, too. The difference is that I think the amount of sand being shed in this basement indicates a serious problem and that parging it would be exactly equivalent to throwing some vinyl siding over it.

          7. User avater
            goldhiller | Feb 06, 2005 11:15pm | #36

            "If someone proposed to sell you a brand new stone foundation laid with sand (or sand loosely bound with lime) and parged, would you buy it? I wouldn't."Depends upon the type of stone involved and the type of mortar used with that stone. As I'm sure you know, the mortar for these old stone foundations was purposely reciped to be softer than the stone because if harder than the stone, stone fracture results. The stones are intended to settle INTO the mortar bed. You might be better off with sand and a parge coat to hold it in place than to have too hard of a mortar with too soft of a stone. Again, it depends on the stone and the mortar. Only time itself would be the final arbiter of what lasted longer/served best in any given situation.Now if your question was would I prefer a well laid stone or a well poured concrete foundation as far as likelihood of longevity and soundness goes.....I think I'd go with the concrete. "I never suggested that parging would accelerate or cause a problem, only that it would conceal an existing problem."Does this mean we should also remove the lower courses of siding to discover whether there's any deterioration of the sill wood also? Bet there is, don't you? And then after discovering so, should we leave that siding off so the potential buyer doesn't feel like we're concealing something with the siding? Or maybe remove all the siding? Might be a problem with a stud here and there."The difference is that I think the amount of sand being shed in this basement indicates a serious problem and that parging it would be exactly equivalent to throwing some vinyl siding over it."Presumptuous. You can't see the stones behind that whitewash/lime-coating and neither can I. They might be lying there as tight as can be and don't need the mortar or sand as a load-bearing element. The foundation may have "converted" itself to a dry-laid foundation of high integrity. I'll presume for the sake of safety that they need the sand and would help hold it in place with the parge coat.The bottom line here, as I see it, is that this is a used home. It isn't new, shouldn't be viewed or expected to be a new home in "like-new" condition. If you want a new home........can't sleep knowing you have a used home that may have some problems (what house doesn't)......then.........buy a new home. Or build it yourself. You don't get a new car when you buy a used one. A used one has wear and tear. What did you expect? Should the seller pull the heads so you can measure the cylinder wear and mic the piston rings? I don't think that parging the walls is an attempt to hide anything. There is nothing sinister involved. No more so than filling divots in the walls and applying a fresh coat of paint. They're still "used" walls and the paint doesn't make them new. Nothing short of tearing this house to the ground and building it back up with brand new materials is going to make it a new house. If the potential buyers don't realize that, then they need a head exam.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.

            Edited 2/6/2005 3:21 pm ET by GOLDHILLER

          8. Piffin | Feb 06, 2005 11:44pm | #37

            I don't want to interrupt U2 guys discussion too much here, just to say that I think you're both right, more or less. I would tend to agree with you and Jeff Buck that it is not much that shredder and her family should need to worry about now. Sinceshe reports no water ingress, I think there is either little in the soils, or that there is still adequate drainage on the perimeter to deal with itI have done both demo and added to rubble stone foundations that were betweeen 80 and two hundred years old with lime mortar. even with more round stone, there was little tendency for the foundations to fail unless drainage was poor and water ran through the foundation, or puddled and froze against it, shoving the rocks inward. With minimal atention to drainage and parging, this wall should be OK for another eighty years. I do think Dunc is right in his suspicions that most of this old mortar is now almost all turned to sand, but I don't think any fall-down failure is in sight. 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          9. mizshredder2 | Feb 07, 2005 12:23am | #40

            "Sinceshe reports no water ingress, I think there is either little in the soils, or that there is still adequate drainage on the perimeter to deal with it"

            Thing is - there's never been water ingress visible in that basement despite the yards of snow (major blizzards area!) that accumulate every winter and melt in the spring.  Typically every year where my Mom and her house is, even if it gets to warm up to be 40 deg F in early April, every blasted year there is one last BLIZZARD on/about 25 April!  No exaggeration.   (But winters there typically run to zero degrees and below, with bone-numbing wind chills.)  So anyway, one would think there is plenty of moisture to load the perimeter soils...and yet, the drainage seems to be doing well.

            Funny.  Whenever I've helped Mom in her yard and garden, I've always admired the rich black soil she's got.  Everything you plant grows well, and large - as long as it is rated good for that "gardening zone" part of the world.  Her lilac bushes are over 20 feet tall and simply amazing when in bloom.

            "The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,Moves on: nor all your Piety nor WitShall lure it back to cancel half a Line,Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it."   - Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam

          10. Piffin | Feb 07, 2005 03:03am | #44

            Absolutely no pressure washing! I forgot to mention that one. One pressure washing could do fifty years worth of damage to that foundation. It would be like a process known as HYDRAULIC MINING, if you want some Googling. If you got noithing else out of this conversation to even the balance with the brothers, that is IT. Even if it would do the wall surface some good, what does he think the water is going to do for the rest of the sauna - I mean, House? 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          11. mizshredder2 | Feb 08, 2005 03:07am | #51

            yer assuming he was "thinking"...?

            "The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,Moves on: nor all your Piety nor WitShall lure it back to cancel half a Line,Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it."   - Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam

          12. Piffin | Feb 08, 2005 05:44am | #53

            Sounds like sis has got him thinking right with his other head now 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          13. mizshredder2 | Feb 08, 2005 06:26am | #54

            she definitely knows how to get his attn....

             

            "The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,Moves on: nor all your Piety nor WitShall lure it back to cancel half a Line,Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it."   - Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam

          14. Piffin | Feb 08, 2005 07:37am | #55

            So she is leading him around by his attn.?Guess you won't be printing this thread out for the brothers to read now Eh? 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          15. mizshredder2 | Feb 09, 2005 06:33am | #57

            "Guess you won't be printing this thread out for the brothers to read now Eh?"

            Whaddya mean?  In MY elec copy of this thread - everyone agrees on the path forward and everyone agrees that brother dear is thinking with his attn re the PW...

            <WINK!>

            "The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,Moves on: nor all your Piety nor WitShall lure it back to cancel half a Line,Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it."   - Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam

          16. User avater
            IMERC | Feb 07, 2005 01:42am | #42

            I see it the same way...

            proud member of the FOR/FOS club...

            Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming

            WOW!!!   What a Ride!

    2. UncleDunc | Feb 05, 2005 08:54pm | #3

      No, this is the right folder. The main problem, and it's not really a very big problem, is expecting an answer in less than 49 minutes on a Saturday morning. This is, after all, the infamous morning after the night before.Do a search for the threads about jacking a house up and replacing the basement.

      1. User avater
        IMERC | Feb 05, 2005 09:07pm | #4

        that'd be taking it a bit far wouldn't it???

        proud member of the FOR/FOS club...

        Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming

        WOW!!!   What a Ride!

        1. UncleDunc | Feb 05, 2005 10:15pm | #7

          If the high lime concrete is deteriorating over time and flaking off, then it seems to me that all cleaning and parging it will do is keep it from flaking off. It won't do anything to keep it from deteriorating. A basement wall that is visibly spalling is a problem you can keep an eye on and decide when to fix. A wall that is invisibly turning to cracker crumbs is a disaster waiting to happen.Maybe the deterioration is a result of some particular circumstance at the boundary between the contrete and the forms, and when all the bad stuff rots off they're will still be a permanent core of sound concrete. But I wouldn't bet the rent on it.

          1. User avater
            IMERC | Feb 05, 2005 10:32pm | #9

            it's a mortored rubble foundation if I read her post correctly.....

            consider the spawling to be oxidation... the core should be good enough to stablize and coat over... I'm guessing at- from here - it's chemical bond break down...

             

            a pic with the overall wall would be nice...

            I shoulda asked if it was all of the wall that was spawling or just in places...

            proud member of the FOR/FOS club...

            Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming

            WOW!!!   What a Ride!

          2. UncleDunc | Feb 05, 2005 11:06pm | #10

            >> it's a mortored rubble foundation if I read her post correctly.....OK, right. I shouldn't have skimmed.I agree with you, if the mortar between the rubble is still sound, then scraping/brushing and re-parging is probably a good approach.My fear would be that there's enough moisture coming in from the air or the soil or both to decompose the mortar, and that eventually it will all turn to dust. If that's going to happen, I (as the theoretical next owner of the house) woule rather watch it and decide when it's gone too far than have it happen where I can't see it.It that's going to happen, and if the house is worth saving, as opposed to tearing it down and starting over, then the foundation will eventually need to be replaced.

            Edited 2/5/2005 3:14 pm ET by Uncle Dunc

          3. User avater
            IMERC | Feb 05, 2005 11:33pm | #11

            time to dig into this a bit deeper...

            maybe one of her sibs can go back fer some more look see...

            now if we can get some input from the others here ome conclusion can be reached...

            proud member of the FOR/FOS club...

            Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming

            WOW!!!   What a Ride!

          4. stoicone | Feb 06, 2005 02:31am | #12

            I had a very similar situation in my home when purchased 15 years ago. The repair was labor intensive because the mortar joints were also failing. Just kept picking a small section at a time , chipped away and cleared joints, re-pointed and re-parged. Also ended up outside to improve drainage and gutters. All done by hand, in "spare" time, and so far so good. (14 years)

          5. User avater
            Dinosaur | Feb 06, 2005 03:01am | #13

            From the pix she posted it does look like only the surface is disintigrating. The concrete holding the rubble together into a structural unit is unlikely to be the same mix as the mortar parged onto the surface once the forms were stripped. That high-lime parging mix was probably mixed that fat so it'd be nice and sticky. The concrete OTOH, 80 years ago, there's a good chance it's round aggregate mix, lots of quartz and granite pebble. No reason for that stuff to start dying anytime this side of eternity....

            I would find a couple of suitable spots to core drill and take samples to make sure the concrete is still in decent shape; if that's the case it's just like you first said: scrape and parge. A good stucco job would look nice on that; might bump the selling price too....

             Dinosaur

            'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

             

          6. User avater
            IMERC | Feb 06, 2005 03:11am | #14

            thought so too...

            darby the stucco and walah....

            proud member of the FOR/FOS club...

            Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming

            WOW!!!   What a Ride!

          7. mizshredder2 | Feb 06, 2005 03:19am | #15

            Good comments all.  And appreciated. 

            (IMERC:  I'll email you my Parex Monocouche heebie geebies story sometime though!)

            Add'l info:

            Basement is about 9' vertically.  About 6 feet is below grade, rest is above.  In all the years of NE WI wicked winters, never had a leak from outside in via fdn or basement so suspect the core is still good.

            Getting  at the walls to apply shotcrete or the like?  Well, about 75% of the walls would have a clear shot at 'em.  In other places items like the water heater, furnace, etc., would make it difficult.  Right now, the exterior door to basement from outside backyard, is under quite a bit of snow...and that's the route to take to supply from.  (Doing something like that would be a bit wiser in a few months when the weather would support opening things up - doors, the windows to the basement, etc.)

            Is the house worth it (stabilizing the basement walls)?  I would say yes.  It was built back when woodwork included beautiful baseboards, crown, etc.  Leaded glass transoms, etc.  Roof is slate (still!)  Lifting house off fdn would be a bear due to the fireplace though... but then again, seems Piffin and others know how to get the job done from pics I ran across on this Forum so...who knows...if lift required, maybe could be done.

            Here's coupla pics from interior.

             

            "The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,Moves on: nor all your Piety nor WitShall lure it back to cancel half a Line,Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it."   - Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam

            Edited 2/5/2005 7:20 pm ET by mizshredder2

          8. User avater
            Dinosaur | Feb 06, 2005 03:37am | #16

            Just from looking at the interior pix you posted, that house is worth saving even if it costs a lot more than I think it will.

            Beautiful wood and glass work like that must be preserved so future generations understand that, once upon a time, people cared about their work. Your ma's a lucky lady to have had the pleasure of living in such a wonderful house all these years.

            Careful who you sell that to. Make sure they deserve it....Dinosaur

            'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

             

          9. mizshredder2 | Feb 06, 2005 07:18pm | #20

            Thanks Dino.

            Funny - "lucky" you wrote.  Yeah, that and "stubborn" and "disciplined"  etc. are adjectives that come to my mind!  (Cause we went thru a lot of lean times when I was growing up but always - and I mean ALWAYS - paying the mortgage came first.)

            There are some younger couples already interested in the house.  The upstairs is 80% attic space and if I had a picture, I'd post it.  Think: 2 x 12 wooden plank floors, same gorgeous windows with leaded transoms, etc.  At least another 800 ft2 that could be "finished" for additional rooms in addition to the one bedroom, hallway, and half bath that's up there currently.   Then too, on main floor, under all the wall2wall carpeting is the original hardwood flooring...   Whoever ends up with it, is going to get a gem, IMHO.

             

            "The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,Moves on: nor all your Piety nor WitShall lure it back to cancel half a Line,Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it."   - Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam

          10. rez | Feb 06, 2005 04:24am | #17

             "Live Free,      not Die"

          11. mizshredder2 | Feb 06, 2005 07:19pm | #21

            Thanks for brightening that up a bit.

            (I'm still wondering: what kind of wood is all the trim made of?)

            "The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,Moves on: nor all your Piety nor WitShall lure it back to cancel half a Line,Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it."   - Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam

          12. Shep | Feb 06, 2005 10:09pm | #33

            not sure just from the pic, but I'd say its a good chance your trim is chestnut.

            its got a similar grain to oak, but is a softer wood.

            I've seen a lot of chestnut trim around here. I think your house is about the right age, too.

            I'm not about to offer any advise on your foundation. My dad loaned me out to a mason for a week when I was in my early 20s.

            As a helper.

            Toughest week I ever had.

            Ever since then, I've stayed away from masonry.

             

          13. mizshredder2 | Feb 07, 2005 12:14am | #38

            Hey Shep, thanks for piping in with your thoughts about the trim!

            As to working with mortar and foundations...well I'm a neophyte there but learning a lot from these guys piping in.

            I think it would be extremely beneficial to get a trusted local (i.e. NE WI) foundation/mortar specialist to come look at the walls and proffer an opinion.  More than one "expert local opinion" would be ideal...but finding who that might be is a little bit of a challenge.  Going to call and email some old H.S. classmates still in the area and see if they can't recommend someone. 

            Man.  Hate trying to deal with things long distance!

            "The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,Moves on: nor all your Piety nor WitShall lure it back to cancel half a Line,Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it."   - Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam

          14. Shep | Feb 07, 2005 02:31am | #43

            getting a trusted local would be the best way to go, since its hard to assess a situation at a distance.

            if you don't have any luck with classmates, call a local mason yard and get some referrals, or call a decent realtor for an inspector who's familiar with foundations.

            it looks like a gorgeous house; there will be some lucky new homeowners that hopefully will appreciate it.

          15. mizshredder2 | Feb 08, 2005 03:06am | #50

            good advice.  will do.  TKS!

            "The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,Moves on: nor all your Piety nor WitShall lure it back to cancel half a Line,Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it."   - Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam

          16. User avater
            goldhiller | Feb 06, 2005 07:40pm | #24

            Someone's concerned about what amounts to nothing. Don't know if it's your mom or the realtors or……..???
            If those pics show the worst of it, it isn't any big deal at all. Cosmetic mostly I'm sure, as others here have already said. And if we're seeing the worst of it....any potential buyer who would be turned off by this or would want a reduced price because of it.……….is also apt to try to whittle you down for any number of other piddly "cosmetic issues" they may find around the house, as well. Bottom line is there are folks who belong in older homes and folks who don't. The anal-retentive have no business buying one. If they like the charm of it all when they visit an older home, or the warm fuzzy feeling they get when they see one on TV or see one from their car window as they drive thru town, but can't tolerate the realities of how these homes were constructed and of what they are constructed.....then they should remain as old house visitors and viewers. They will likely weed themselves out during the "offering process" with a list of "this needs to be fixed first". If the list includes any comments about the condition of the foundation we see in your pics, they just put themselves in the "we shouldn't be buying this house" category. IMO, these old foundations in good condition should be cherished and not regarded as something "inferior" that should be replaced. Imagine the struggle and work those folks and the horses put in to haul all that stone to the site and stack it there. Back-breaking work that would make the most of us look like true wieners. None of this "call the Ready-Mix" stuff. No backhoe or Cat to dig the hole neither. It's these natural materials and the awareness of what it took to build the structure that should be appreciated and IS the charm of older well-built homes. Ya can't go to Home Depot and buy a skid of charm and warmth like that.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.

          17. mizshredder2 | Feb 06, 2005 07:50pm | #26

            One of my older brothers and one of the other brother's school friends that still live in the area and is a realtor - raised the "specter" that the walls were a serious negative and concern.  In fact, this same (supposedly older and therefore wiser) brother seems to think we should use water and PRESSURE WASH all the loose spalling areas out of the basement walls!

            I'm the lone... wait a minute let's get real here, voice in the crowd.   Unfortunately, my mom is 86 y/o and from a different culture and although she doesn't consciously realize it, to this day she still gives extra credit to when some of my brothers talk, versus me, simply cause... they're MEN.  (No shid!)

            Thanks for piping in with your thoughts.  Adds to my ammunition to Push The Boys BACK.

             

            "The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,Moves on: nor all your Piety nor WitShall lure it back to cancel half a Line,Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it."   - Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam

          18. User avater
            goldhiller | Feb 06, 2005 07:55pm | #28

            "I'm the lone... wait a minute let's get real here, voice in the crowd."Then I'm sure you know what to do. Link the others to this thread and/or print it out and put it in their hands. Try to be gracious about it and not gloat. :-)Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.

          19. User avater
            Sphere | Feb 06, 2005 08:03pm | #29

            My old place in Pa. was built in 1710...had the exact same "problem"..the cure was a needle scaler (air powered) and a throughout vacuume/blow out...messy as hell, but the end result was slightly wider joints in the rubblestone. Some I retucked, some I didn't. Nothing else cept a quick whitewash (lime and water slurry, like before) to brighten it up a bit.Really, I don't think 80 yrs. is a problem. 

            Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

            "I've..seen all good people turn thier heads, so, satisfied, I am on my way.."They kill prophets for profits"..And, that's...the truth.........phhatt

          20. User avater
            IMERC | Feb 07, 2005 01:41am | #41

            PLEASE!!! NO PRESSURE WASH...

            stay with the KISS technique... a few scraping / brushing type tools and some elbow grease...

            proud member of the FOR/FOS club...

            Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming

            WOW!!!   What a Ride!

          21. Piffin | Feb 07, 2005 03:04am | #45

            Thart pressure washer would make a great scene for an episode of the Tool Time Tim Allen show, LOL 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          22. User avater
            IMERC | Feb 07, 2005 04:32am | #46

            that it would...

            proud member of the FOR/FOS club...

            Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming

            WOW!!!   What a Ride!

          23. Piffin | Feb 07, 2005 05:36am | #47

            Ya know, the first time or two i saw this thread, I thought it said, "Basement walls Grumbling" LOL 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          24. User avater
            IMERC | Feb 07, 2005 06:09am | #48

            it's possible they are...

            proud member of the FOR/FOS club...

            Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming

            WOW!!!   What a Ride!

          25. mizshredder2 | Feb 08, 2005 03:06am | #49

            Got my SIL to use KISS of different mode...and bro is backing off his initial position that PW would be good.

            Some times the quickest route is not from A to B, but via C...  <wink!>

            "The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,Moves on: nor all your Piety nor WitShall lure it back to cancel half a Line,Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it."   - Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam

          26. User avater
            IMERC | Feb 08, 2005 03:28am | #52

             but via C... 

            heheheheheheheheheheh.... ROAR!!!!

            proud member of the FOR/FOS club...

            Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming

            WOW!!!   What a Ride!

      2. mizshredder2 | Feb 05, 2005 09:18pm | #6

        Anyone who had a good time partying last nite - has my envy.

        "The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,Moves on: nor all your Piety nor WitShall lure it back to cancel half a Line,Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it."   - Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam

  2. DougU | Feb 06, 2005 05:54am | #18

    miz

    I have a house in Iowa, built in 1880's. It has a similar looking foundation. Mine is built with a local sandstone, it very soft, porous. You can carve it with a butter knife.

    I have piles of sand around the perimeter of the basement. I'm not all that worried yet, it started life about 26" thick and its down to about 24" now.

    I've had several masons, and local "experts" look at my basement. All of them told me roughly the same thing.

    The reason that my walls are deteriorating is because someone coated them with everything from plaster to several varieties of paint. The walls can not breath. Moisture is trapped in there and just as moisture is trapped behind siding, the paint will blister off. In my case the plaster, paint and whatever else has been applied over the last 125 years.

    I've owned the house for about 15 years now and I don't think that the chance of the house caving in is emanate but I'm guessing that I will have to address the issue some day. Just not going to do something foolish that will cause more problems.

    If your planing on selling the house you might just clean it up, you don't want to do something that is going to make it more difficult for the next owner. I don't know that parging the walls is the answer, the masons that I have had did not recommend any thing like that so I know for my self that I wouldn't do it.

    The pic's of the interior are nice, that will probably sell the house.

    Most people know that old basements are just that, old basements.

    Probably no help but I don't think the problem is sever.

    Doug

     

    1. mizshredder2 | Feb 06, 2005 07:27pm | #22

      "I have piles of sand around the perimeter of the basement. I'm not all that worried yet, it started life about 26" thick and its down to about 24" now."

      Man, that sounds familiar.  In December, I used shop vac and took 4 hours to clean up the sand around the perimeter as I was inspecting and poking as I went around, and of course, creating more sand/debris as I did so!

      From recalling the basement window jambs, I'd say your wall thickness is greater than hers.  26"? wow.  Hers are more along the lines of 12-15".   But the areas of spalling vary from 1/4" to 2-3" in places where there are clearly ROCKS/STONES and the filler between has come loose and you can poke it with a pencil and it falls or pours out like sand...

      At least from reading yours and Jeff's post, I no longer have this huge nervous grip in my gut that this is anything that requires IMMEDIATE repair or is cause for any imminent structural failure.

      Looking back on my inspections in the house in December, in the upper floors there is evidence of settling, or just aging,  (e.g., cracks in the plaster ceilings here and there) but very little to indicate the core of the foundation is disintegrating and the house atop it is shifting.   Thank God for that!

      "The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,Moves on: nor all your Piety nor WitShall lure it back to cancel half a Line,Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it."   - Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam

  3. User avater
    JeffBuck | Feb 06, 2005 09:01am | #19

    ok .. first off ...

    anyone talking and using phrases like ... "saving the house" ...

    is outta their mind.

    U got a little spalling of the block in the basement.

    It's nowhere near terms like ... "saving" ...

    it's like paint bubbling!

    scrape it and patch it.

     

    my parents belgium block basement had about 1/3 of the face of the block gone ...

    let'see ... it was 90 yrs old... and we fixed it when I was ... 12?

    and guess what? It's still standing.

     

    Old houses crumble ... no big deal.

     

    scrap all the loose stuff away. wire brush it by hand ...

    then decide.

    for just the surface ... drylock works good.

    For little more than surface ... drylock with a scoop of sand works good.

    U can also either parge with a mortar mix ... or straight portland cement mix from a bag.

     

    If there looks to be a reason to stabilize the block work first ...

    spray or brush slap on Acryl 60. That's a sealer.

    If U wanna seal and parge ... if it's a deep area when all said and done ...

    spray/brush in the Acryl 60 real heavy and sloppy .. then .... have a second set of hands ready with some nice fat portland ... spray .. trowel ... spray ... trowel.

    all the way down the wall.

     

    you walls look to be nothing.

    I'll take pics of the bricks we're gonna tackle soon. About 2/3rd of the brick face gone ... interior foundation walls ...

    and ya know what ... still no big deal.

    That house ain't gonna fall over either!

     

    people seemto think it's easy for an old house to fall over ...

     

    it's been there 100 years ... it'll take another 100 to push her over.

     

    Jeff

      Buck Construction 

       Artistry in Carpentry

            Pgh, PA

    1. mizshredder2 | Feb 06, 2005 07:32pm | #23

      Jeff -  love yer "tell it like ya see it"! 

      Still chuckling -

      Is GOOD chuckling -

      RELIEVED kinda chuckling. ..

      "Old houses crumble"  -  Bingo.  There's some fine homebuilding up in that neck of the world and woods, in the same neighborhood even, so I suspect potential buyers from around the area, will have some frame of reference alredy,  to understand this.

      "The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,Moves on: nor all your Piety nor WitShall lure it back to cancel half a Line,Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it."   - Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam

  4. Piffin | Feb 06, 2005 11:12pm | #35

    Haven't seen the rest of the thread yet, but here is my first two cents worth...

    those walls lok in good shape for the shape they're in. it is a rubble stone foundation. Back then, portland cement was uncommon. Lime based mortar was what they used. But lime is transient. Water in the ground moves through it and over a long enough time, fifty to a hundred and fifty years depending on lime content and water contact, the lime tends to wash away and leave mostly sand in the joints.

    From what I can see in the photos, the surface of the wall may have been patched before with mortar on the surface of the joints, and then a seal coat of either paint or Thorocrete or other masonry parging. If it were mine, i might do the same agian, by scraping any loose sand from joints, using a bonding agent and patching with portland mud and then using a slurry of Thorocrete to repaint/seal.

    But that might appear to potential buyers as though a "coverup" deal had been done. A local RE agent could comment better on that.

    The fact is though, that the walls are probably about 18" thick, and the exterior joints below ground are quite open and coming apart by now, ready to invite water in. I would leave that for the new owner to deal with, especially since new owners are 40$ likely to change things and add on anyway.

     

     

    Welcome to the
    Taunton University of
    Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
     where ...
    Excellence is its own reward!

    1. mizshredder2 | Feb 07, 2005 12:16am | #39

      thanks for piping in Piffin

      "The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,Moves on: nor all your Piety nor WitShall lure it back to cancel half a Line,Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it."   - Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam

  5. user-424245 | Feb 09, 2005 04:58am | #56

    Look on the Old House Journal site. I know-I am recommending another magazine. A few years ago they had an article about how to repair those old cellar rock walls that are turning to sand… it had information to do with the recipie for the repair concrete mix- the wrong mix will make it worse.

    1. mizshredder2 | Feb 09, 2005 06:34am | #58

      Hey - hadn't thought of that.  Tks!

      "The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,Moves on: nor all your Piety nor WitShall lure it back to cancel half a Line,Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it."   - Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam

    2. DougU | Feb 09, 2005 06:43am | #59

      fixit

      Thats a good point. Thats why I have decided to make sure that whatever I do use it is whats best for the situation.

      As I stated in my post way back, my walls started 26" and are down to 24", its not going anywhere for awhile.

      Better to wait and do whats proper than jump in and do something harmful.

      Doug

      1. mizshredder2 | Feb 13, 2005 01:15am | #60

        Just an update:

        Got some locals to look at the basement walls, got recipe for proper mix to use, got brother to agree to the job since his schedule has some openings in it.   

        Work gets started next weekend.

        Crossing my fingers all goes well!

         

        "The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,Moves on: nor all your Piety nor WitShall lure it back to cancel half a Line,Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it."   - Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam

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