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Discussion Forum

Basic drywall tools

Righty_Tighty | Posted in Tools for Home Building on July 25, 2009 05:10am

Warning, DIY here.

I have began slowly replacing paneling in various rooms of our little house with drywall.  I’m planning on taping and finishing myself also and have read most of Myron’s articles here and at JLC.  So I’m getting tooled up and I think I’m good to go except that I can’t find locally anything but 11″ trowels and I think I’d be safer starting out with something longer, like 14″.  Opinions for a newbie?

Also, I can’t seem to remember the name of an online drywall tool store that I know I’ve seen you guys reference several times. 

And if you could spare another minute, what tools would you suggest I have in a basic drywall tool set?  As far as materials, I’m planning on using premixed all purpose mud, nonperforated paper tape, paper-backed metal corners, j-channel for drywall returns on a couple of windows, and (don’t grit your teeth too hard here) we’ll be experimenting with rolling on thinned mud for a knockdown texture on the ceilings. 

OH, one more question.  House was built in 82.  Drywall nails were used, even on ceilings.  Would you bother to add in a few screws in betwixt scraping the cottage cheese and refinishing the ceilings?  Joists are 16″OC, what’s the proper ceiling nailing schedule?

This is our first house and it’s a fixer-upper for sure, but we’ll be here for awhile so I want to do a good job.  (That’s why I hang out and listen here!)

Thanks.

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Replies

  1. bubbajames | Jul 25, 2009 05:29am | #1

    Drywall gun as opposed to a drill, mud pan(beats working out of a bucket) A utility knife that offers tool less blade changes, a drywall square, an assortment of taping knives 6,10 and 12 inchers are nice... Circle cutter, Dimpler bits if you must use a drill, sanders, hand, pole and at least one that traps dust...As a beginner, taping using the mesh tape might be easier and more forgiving. Oh, also pick up a mixing paddle and a strong drill if you ever decide to make the transition from premixed to the bagged stuff.

  2. cargin | Jul 25, 2009 06:58am | #2

    righty

    What babba said.

    I use a cordless and dimpler bits for driving screws.

    Screw schedule would be one on each edge and 3-4 in the field per joist on the ceiling. On walls 3 in the field is good enough.

    It's is going to be a judgement call on screwing the exisiting nailed drywall

    I would get some 20 minute easy sand setting type joint compound for filling voids and deep areas. It will set hard in 20 minutes and it does not shrink. I usually do my outside corners with it. It also comes in 45 min, 90 and 120.

    My taping tools consist of a mud pan (SS) a 4", 6", 12" knifes and an inside corner tool. I also have the 8", 10", 14" and outside corner too but I seldom use them.

    I use a paint scraper and a sponge to knock down the high ridges after a coat rather than sanding.

    I use a 4" knife for setting the tape and a 12" knife for most of the work on the 2nd and 3rd coats.

    I use this poor man's banjo for the the 1st coat.

    http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=119163.1

    There is only one way to learn and that is to do it. Have fun.

    Rich

  3. User avater
    xxPaulCPxx | Jul 25, 2009 08:16am | #3

    warehouse bay is the store you are looking for.

    Tu stultus es
    Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
    Also a CRX fanatic!

    Look, just send me to my drawer.  This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.

  4. User avater
    Huck | Jul 25, 2009 08:20am | #4

    http://www.all-wall.com/

    View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
  5. User avater
    IMERC | Jul 25, 2009 09:44am | #5

    see if you can find an Ames store near you...

     

    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming

    WOW!!! What a Ride!


    Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

     

    "Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"

  6. DonCanDo | Jul 25, 2009 01:37pm | #6

    99% of all of my taping/spackling is done with a 6" and a 12" knife.  I tried a 14" knife, but I found it just a little awkward.  I'm not a full-time taper/spackler, but I'm far from a newbie either.  If my choice was 11" or 14", I would use the 11".  I do have smaller knives, but they're just for places that the 6" wont fit when doing repairs.

    If you get a mud pan, get the stainless steel pan, not the plastic one.  That's because it's important to keep it clean as you work and you can clean and reload a steel pan just using your taping knives as you work, but it's a lot harder with the plastic pan.

    Clean is critical.  Keep your knives clean, keep your mud pan clean, keep your bucket clean.  "Clean" means no foreign debris and no dried mud.  If the mud dries on either side of your knife, get a damp rag and clean it off.  Don't put it back in the pan or bucket - it will haunt you forever.

    Consider using Straight-Flex tape for inside corners.  Sometimes it's easy to accidentally cut paper tape with a drywall knife, but Straight-flex is a lot stronger.  I use a corner tool, but that's because I'm usually trying to do both walls at the same time.  It's not really necessary and has its own learning curve.

    Mesh tape has it's place, but it's not as strong as paper tape so I think you have the right idea there.  A "trick" I have found to help avoid bubbles in paper tape is to wet it before setting it in the mud.  Running both sides over a damp sponge is sufficient.

    As for adding screws... now's the time if you have any movement between the drywall and framing.  Sometimes you can see the nail heads move as you push on the wall.  That's a future nail pop.  If everything is tight, there's no point in adding screws.

    1. Shep | Jul 25, 2009 03:41pm | #7

      Hey- I use a corner trowel, too! We might be the only 2 guys here who do.

      must be a Jersey thing LOL

      1. User avater
        IMERC | Jul 25, 2009 03:42pm | #8

        you two haven't got an exclusive on the corner trowel... 

        Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

        WOW!!! What a Ride!

        Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

         

        "Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"

        1. Shep | Jul 25, 2009 04:10pm | #9

          Is it a Jersey thing for you, too?

          1. User avater
            IMERC | Jul 25, 2009 04:23pm | #10

            yup....

            called the lazy way out here.... 

            Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

            WOW!!! What a Ride!

            Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

             

            "Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"

          2. DonCanDo | Jul 25, 2009 04:33pm | #13

            I feel like I'm in good company.  I understand why full-timers probably don't use a corner tool.  It's one more tool to pick up/put down and keep clean and if you're doing several rooms, there's a good chance one side of the corner will be set up by the time you get back to it.

            I only do a few corners at a time and that one-pass for both sides really speeds things up for me.  Using it takes a little learning.  Mostly about how much mud should be in the corner before you make your final pass with the corner tool.  Too much and it spills over the sides and you need the flat knife anyway.  Too little and you have to add more mud and make another complete pass.

            I work top down.  As close to the floor as convenient.  Then bottom up.  Where I overlap usually requires a little final sanding to remove the ridge.  That's why I want it as close to foor as possible... less dust and less visible.

          3. User avater
            IMERC | Jul 25, 2009 04:39pm | #15

            ditto....

            one stop corners.... 

            Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

            WOW!!! What a Ride!

            Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

             

            "Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"

          4. Shep | Jul 25, 2009 05:08pm | #22

            some call it lazy; some call it efficient <G>

          5. User avater
            IMERC | Jul 25, 2009 07:02pm | #23

            any way ya slice it...

            it works... 

            Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

            WOW!!! What a Ride!

            Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

             

            "Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"

        2. Righty_Tighty | Jul 25, 2009 04:27pm | #11

          Wowsa! overnight response! 

          Thanks a ton guys, that is exactly the info I needed.  I know this topic is a dead horse around here, so I appreciate your help on these questions I just couldn't seem to find with the search.  The downside is that now I've added a couple more tools to my Christmas list and its only July.  Not that I need it but I might have to work on that homemade banjo just for kicks.

          Two more questions I've come up with:

          I know "knife" is sort of a catch-all word, but am I hearing that most of you get the flat joints done without a "trowel"? 

          And speaking of flat joints, I've seen where some folks try to notch the butts, like put a sharp angle on it with a utility blade and filling the notch with setting type compound.  What's the advantage to that?

          1. DonCanDo | Jul 25, 2009 04:38pm | #14

            I've never used a trowel, just a flat knife so I'll let others chime in on that one.

            I don't like the idea of cutting a knotch for butt joints.  I think it just weakens the edge.  But I do like to keep butt joints slightly separated (maybe 1/8") so I can fill the gap with hot mud before taping.  I think this makes a much stronger joint.

            I also like floating butt joints.  If you don't know what that is, do a search or ask.

          2. ptp | Jul 25, 2009 05:00pm | #18

            I use a trowel for second and third coats. I buy Marshalltown stainless steel trowels from the concrete tools section at Home Dimwit. Like others have said, bed the tape with a four inch, apply the first coat and all coats to inside corners with a six inch. For the second coat, I use a ten inch trowel on all tapered and butt seams. For the third coat, I use a 14" trowel.I find that it's easier for me to effectively spread and smooth the mud with the handle position of the trowel versus a broad knife. I keep eight and ten inch knives in my tool bin but use them infrequently.One thing that I haven't seen mentioned yet is to fill the hollow created by the tape-on outside corner bead. Use a wide tool and apply multiple coats of mud to eliminate the depression and subsequent gap behind your baseboard. Most people neglect to do this. I like to mix up a batch of Easy Sand for the fill coat but you can do it with bucket mud if that's less daunting.

        3. JTC1 | Jul 25, 2009 07:47pm | #24

          Across the river from Jersey but, I use a corner trowel also.

          Funny thing is I have two SS versions and an el cheapo, throw away white plastic one --- I get the best results with the plastic one.

          On topic of knives: I have given up all but SS knives - get rusty too fast especially with setting muds.

          I also subscribe to the school of thought which says, "If mud has been out of the bucket, it either goes on the wall or in the trash." I never return mud to the bucket - little hard bits will get you every time.

          I have one modified knife which I use every time - it started life as a 6" wide SS taping knife which I cut down with a cut off wheel to about 3" wide with square corners, smoothed things up with a fine file.  I use this to mix small batches of setting mud in a pan and scraping out the pan when needed -- the point is, it just fits the width of my SS mud pan and makes mixing / scaping easier. Also handy for scraping mud bucket walls if you are using the small buckets (gallon). 

          Jim Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.

          1. User avater
            IMERC | Jul 25, 2009 08:36pm | #25

            take every knief off of the wall and test the flex on every knief till ya find what yur looking for or like...

              

            Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

            WOW!!! What a Ride!

            Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

             

            "Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"

          2. webby | Jul 25, 2009 08:51pm | #26

            One thing I didn't see suggested but I may have missed is a  vacum pole sander setup. Its all we use and it really helps keep the dust under control.

            Sander, shopvac, and drywall bags.

            I never got the hang of the cornertrowel, I am selling mine on ebay now. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=320403618707

            Otherwise all good advice. Webby 

             

          3. webby | Jul 25, 2009 08:58pm | #27

            Forgot to include a link to the sander I have.

            http://www.all-wall.com/acatalog/Hyde_Dust-Free_Professional_Pole_Sander.php

            It is not the heaviest duty version but it beats the 15 dollar broom handle ones at lowes.

            I was very pleased with everything I ever bought at all wall. Webby 

             

          4. JTC1 | Jul 29, 2009 01:34am | #61

            True 'nuf.

            Unfortunately our OP probably does not know what he likes or would like......

            JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.

          5. User avater
            IMERC | Jul 29, 2009 01:48am | #62

            is it something like this???

            this here pile is what doesn't work...

            this here pile is I have no earthly clue or do I know what I was thinking when I bought it...

            and this here is what i like to use and works for me...

              

            Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

            WOW!!! What a Ride!

            Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

             

            "Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"

        4. fingersandtoes | Jul 27, 2009 01:51am | #37

          I feel like my father just told me I have a bunch of step-siblings! I have always felt guilty about using a corner trowel. None of the full time pros here do.

          1. User avater
            IMERC | Jul 27, 2009 01:59am | #38

            it's what ever works.... 

            Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

            WOW!!! What a Ride!

            Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

             

            "Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"

          2. natedaw | Jul 27, 2009 02:04am | #39

            how is using a corner trowel less professional than using a corner flusher which 90% of the tapers around here seem to use.

          3. fingersandtoes | Jul 27, 2009 02:08am | #40

            There are a number of tools, most of them quite useful, that for whatever reason become associated with DIYers. Around here drywall lifts are also somehow seen as un-manly too.

          4. ptp | Jul 27, 2009 05:13am | #41

            Anyone that says lifts are for sissies is getting an @ss-whuppin' from me!

          5. fingersandtoes | Jul 27, 2009 06:46am | #42

            Another thing you can't do around here is tell anyone how to start their chainsaw. No matter how long they have been pulling on it.

            I find these things as strange as you do but they seem to be the local rules.

          6. Huntdoctor | Jul 27, 2009 11:23pm | #55

            I agree! lifts ain't just for sissiesspending 3-6 months in rehab for shoulder repairwe were only putting up 2 sheets on lid why get the lift oute-room visit - x-rays - MRI - surgery - rehab - lost work time(self employed) guessing about 5G's out of pocket after insurance not counting not being able to workcan we all say's ooops!

          7. ptp | Jul 27, 2009 11:29pm | #56

            It seems like most injuries happen when you're doing just a little bit of something. And it's not always because you disregard safe practice. Story of my life, too.

          8. rez | Jul 27, 2009 06:59am | #43

            Congratulations!

            IMERC receives the BT 'Truth in Print' award.

            Saaalute!!! View Image View Image  

      2. Jer | Jul 25, 2009 05:03pm | #20

        I live near enough yous guys to use a corner tool. Been using one since the start. I like to thin the mud and then use a corner roller, apply the creased paper tape and run the tool down. It goes pretty fast.

      3. User avater
        popawheelie | Jul 26, 2009 03:19am | #32

        Count me in too! Corner trowels rock!"There are three kinds of men: The one that learns by reading, the few who learn by observation and the rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."Will Rogers

        1. User avater
          Dinosaur | Jul 26, 2009 06:57am | #33

          Measuring & Cutting tools: Tee-square; razor knife; DW saw; chalk-line.

          Mounting tools: Gyprock screwgun; panel lifter pedal; if you're doing ceilings, get some panel props (2 at least).

          Taping tools: 14" mud hawk; 6" & 8" knives; 12" & 14" trowels; inside-corner tool. Marshalltown and A. Richard make good ones.

          Sanding tools: Adjustable 5'-11' Fibreglas extension pole; pro-quality (metal) pole-sander head (the cheap plastic ones don't have enough mass); 80- & 100-grit gyprock sanding screens (sandpaper loads up with dust too fast).

          Note 1: If you want to get a vaccuum sander, understand that it makes sanding five times more of a miserable PITA because the hose is always in your way and dragging and catching on things and the shop vac is making all that noise, too. All that to avoid sucking up the dust from the floor later on? Hmmmm. Something to consider, anyway. Yeah, I've got one; but I only use it if Mrs. HO threatens to go ballistic if I don't....

          Note 2: Gyprock nails work fine; if the panels aren't loose and you don't see any nail pops, leave 'em alone. Adding a bunch of screws now could cause more trouble than you'd think.

          Dinosaur

          How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....

          1. rez | Jul 26, 2009 04:24pm | #34

            Adding a bunch of screws now could cause more trouble than you'd think.

            Could you elaborate on this?

            Thanks 

          2. User avater
            Dinosaur | Jul 28, 2009 06:05am | #58

            Adding a bunch of screws now could cause more trouble than you'd think.

            Could you elaborate on this?

            Screws can generally yank the 'rock tighter to the wall than nails, even tho nails can hold it tight enough to be trouble-free. If the 'rock is stable and pop-free--as it probably is after all those years--but the OP goes ahead and runs in a buncha screws just because he's afraid those old-fashioned nails can't really hold the rock in place good enuff...well, all of a sudden all those nice stable nail heads are gonna pop and joints are gonna crack and he's gonna have a mess on his hands.

             

            And before anybody gets on their high horse about the ol' Dinosaur defending old stuff just 'cuz it's old, the answer is 'no'--I wouldn't hang a new rock job with nails just because I can; screws are easier and do a better job if the guy driving the screw gun knows what he's about. I'm glad I can still nail up gyprock if I have to (for instance on a site with no power for the gun)...but it's not something I'd do just for auld lang syne....

            Dinosaur

            How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....

          3. rez | Jul 28, 2009 06:24am | #59

            I see. Makes sense. 

  7. Danno | Jul 25, 2009 04:33pm | #12

    I liked DonCanDo's advice about keeping tools clean. About the most important advice you can get. I learned after several years, not to even bother with a mud pan/tray. I load the mud on a 12" or 14" knife and take off from it with another knife. I find myself flipping from knife you knife too--once I've taken off enough mud from one to make it manageable, I used it to apply mud and then work it with the other knife. Then I constantly scrape from one to the other to keep mud from drying on it and making chunks.

    I don't know it Don's advice included this, but NEVER put mud back in the bucket and keep the bucket sides scraped down. I usually keep a putty knife in the bucket and load the big knife with that, constantly scraping the sides of the bucket to keep it clean. If I'm taking a break, I cover the full knife with a wet rag, and if the mud gets dry of lumpy on either knife, I scrape it off into a trash bin. Those little lumps of dried mud and paieces of tape and tape fuzz will drive you nuts leaving big grooves on an otherwise perfectly smooth swipe of the knife.

    1. rez | Jul 25, 2009 04:54pm | #17

      I keep a very small trowel for detail areas and sometimes a larger one for digging paste from the bottom of the bucket

      but the knives are the workhorses and just get stainless steel and be done with it. You'll be glad you did.

      Can't see the need for a banjo if just doing your own small house.

      In addition to a mud pan I find a hawk to be sometimes valuable in different situations and cleans with an easy swipe to eliminate drying mud.

      The easy holding and 4 sides to work from is an asset. 

      Oh yeah, go to Sherwin-Williams and get a Magic Trowel. Can be an added weapon in your arsenal especially when knockdown texture topcoating for a finish.

      Best use the search function for D-mix and read what's up with all that.

       

      Edited to add...Here's a summary:81890.3

      Point is instructions and the right mix for each job and each person is relevant to your plastering skills. The idea is different mixes can be made with different results besides just topcoating from a joint compound which also can bring satisfactory results.

      Edited 7/25/2009 10:15 am ET by rez

      1. Jer | Jul 25, 2009 05:00pm | #19

        Hawk is all I use, but then again I do plastering.

  8. junkhound | Jul 25, 2009 04:45pm | #16

    DIY here

    General comment on drywall.

    Have many skills, but DW taping is not one of them.  I'll tape when needed for firecode and sealing, otherwise I panel or wallpaper. 

    My tape jobs suck - no other word for it,

    if you find you don't have the patience for 4 or 5 coats to finally get it right, try another wall finish <G>

    I do have 14", 18", corner trowels, etc. etc.  Doesn't do me any good. Still a crummy job.



    Edited 7/25/2009 9:46 am ET by junkhound

  9. Shoeman | Jul 25, 2009 05:06pm | #21

    Best thing I have found for doing drywall is No Coat corner bead http://www.no-coat.com/.docs/pg/10291

    I use it on all my inside corners

    Makes it real easy to get a nice crisp line, and you can do both sides right away

    Not cheap compared to regular paper tape, but sure makes a nice looking corner

    1. Don | Jul 27, 2009 07:12am | #44

      What about No Coat OUTSIDE corners? Really great. They are the ones you can beat on w/ a baseball bat. No joke - they had them on the corners of the store where they sold it & had a bat handy for those of us who wished to try it. Indestructible! Have it throughout my house. put on by the contractor who did the job. #1 Son, who is NOT a wallboard pro at all put them on the corners in our shop. Perfect w/ minimum mess & effort.DonDon Reinhard
      The Glass Masterworks
      "If it scratches, I etch it!"

      1. rez | Jul 27, 2009 07:29am | #45

        View Image

        http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100396176

        $57.98 100ft. 

        1. KenHill3 | Jul 27, 2009 08:05am | #46

          $25 or $30 a day for a drywall lift is some of the best money I have ever spent. It can mean that you can hang a whole job by yourself. Truth be told, with or without a helper, I will only hang lid with a lift.The Woodshed Tavern Backroom

          The Topics Too Hot For Taunton's Breaktime Forum Tavern

          1. jimjimjim | Jul 27, 2009 10:05am | #47

            I've done lids both with and without - and I'm with you Ken.  A lift is indispensable, particularly on cathedral ceilings.

            Jim x 3

             

          2. Shoeman | Jul 27, 2009 04:12pm | #50

            I'm with you and ken on the lifts - just makes life so much easier.

            Bought a used Telpro a few years back to save the trips to the rental center.

        2. Shoeman | Jul 27, 2009 04:08pm | #49

          I have not used the No Coat 450

          I use the 325 http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100396179 

          works well and costs less - $33/100ft roll

          1. rez | Jul 27, 2009 05:15pm | #51

            Says 450 is for longer runs. Wonder if it's the same stuff only in 4.5 inch width instead of 3.25?

              

          2. Mooney | Jul 27, 2009 07:24pm | #52

            I read the thread and found a few wifes tales er somthin.

            Cant tell someone how  to start the chain saw but ;

            A 6inch knife is the most used tool in the set . Learn to use it and its the key to the rest. But anyhow on knife sizes;

            A 6" is a woman from 9 to 5. Cant be done with out her. It runs the tape and covers corners. Learn to run a 6 and you have no need for a corner trowel. If you cant handle a six in the corner then how ya supposed to handle a tub or a window returned with drywall?

            This deserves its own section but ties in with the 6 inch knife. What do do with the gunky mud in the pan you scrape out every time to get new mud.

            It goes in a bucket by its self with a lid laying loose  on top. Its saved . Put water in the bucket so the mud stays under water . At the end of the day put a drill in it and lather it for a minute . Leter sit over night . Next morning most of it is back to fresh mud again with little trash in it . Mix it again to a lather .

            That mud is just fine for taping , filling , first coat metal, and can be used in texture .

            One thing this mud is good for and the 6 inch knife is running it out of the pan beside butt joints . Remember that butt joints are higher normally that the surface . Thats checked placing a 12 across the middle of the joint . Some butts requite a lot of fill to the sides of the tape so we can provide a slight belly effect . The worse it is the wider it needs to be . We need saw horses to put the board over effect. Its the key to building a correct butt joint . So the middle of the butt is flat and the out side tapered. A lot of times when Im running light on time I run the out side of the butt joints with a 6 and cruddy mud to build a horse just after Ive taped it . Where is the big question. If the joint is bad then the wider out the horse needs to be to get level. Check it with a 12 or a simple stick thats cut in your back pocket to find  where you need to build it on both sides

            I gotta go to work. 

          3. rez | Jul 27, 2009 07:54pm | #53

            Seems  producing a drywall sheet with all four sides tapered might be a market niche to fill.

            Probably too complex an issue with the present manufacturing processes in use but would be a good idear.

            Down with butt joints!

             

            yep, seeyou invented good idears. What'd you expect, seeyou invented butts? ...well, maybe. 

          4. Mooney | Jul 27, 2009 08:13pm | #54

            If you ever get to visit a drywall factory your question will be answered. Its auto cut on top of a big line of rollers . The sides are made continus  but somthing has to end it . If they made it easy they wouldnt need us . Careful what you wish for .

            I still cuss splatter texture. I hate it to have to fix a simple hole like a door knob. Ive used roller texture for years instead but my rentals are full of this splatter ####. Cant fix it right unless you shoot it . While I gripe about that homeowners cant fix it either so we get paid . So I guess I better shut up.

            I got paid for years and years to repair popcorn texture and now they dont want it . Ever hear the story about the two boys trading a mule back and forth until one screwed it up and sold it to someone else and broke the chain? Same thing by eliminating popcorn texture. Plus you had to have a spray rig to paint it .

             

            Edited 7/27/2009 1:14 pm by Mooney

            Edited 7/27/2009 1:15 pm by Mooney

          5. Tyr | Jul 28, 2009 10:26am | #60

            Being a 6" knife man myself I wondered if there was a source for a SS 6" that wasn't as thin as paper.  No can find around Denver and I'm always looking.

            Guy asked me to help him with a job and I was unloading knives etc.  He saw an inside corner knife and scooped it up--hid it.  Said I would thrown off most jobs if anybody saw it.

            A LITTLE STORY 

            Years later I was the GC and hired a couple of guys to "wet down" a second floor I had added and rocked.  Cathedral ceiling--sort of.

            They showed up with an all rubber knife they used on joints of about 120 deg.  Said they picked them up in CA because what they referred to as "phony framers" couldn't even get close to framing anything up with a 90 deg corner.  That rubber knife was a life saver there.

            So where as I have a little (3" dia) mud mixer that fits my long SS pan (long knives don't fit short pans) I usually whip up a pan full of Easy Sand 60 and go to work.  Not these guys--they wanted Easy Sand 45 or faster (Note: it doesn't stay workable the entire 45, 60, whatever).  They first dump some water in the bottom of a 5 gal mud bucket, then an entire bag of Easy Sand (I just imagined the waste), they whip it up adding more water (the water in bottom was so it didn't stick), and after I go downstairs to check on some other guys in my crew I return to find they have used the entire bag of Quik Sand!

            "Have to toss it?"  Nope, its on the wall!  They kept a 5 gal mud bucket full of water handy and everytime they whipped up a bag they ran the mixer in the water bucket to clean it.  Without me bitching there was NEVER a tool cleaned of Quik Set in any sink, tub or washed down the drain where it would set up later.

            These guys were good.  Gone by noon every day.  No sanding to speak of.  Mostly a wet sponge just as things started to harden.  Shot the whole second floor with topping in a texture gun --uh, excuse me but I told you the owner wanted stomp--"we know" so they just went around with stomp texture brushes and it got stomped.

            Now if I could just find a stiff 6" stainless.  Everything else I have is stainless and has just enough flex to it that I can press down and feather those edges.  Arrrggghhhh.

             Things are not always what they seem; the first appearance deceives many; the intelligence of a few perceives what has been carefully hidden.... Roman Poet Phaedrus 15BC–50AD

          6. Shoeman | Jul 28, 2009 04:12am | #57

            I beleive you are correct.

            When I first started using No Coat, it was much wider than the 325 - the plastic in it was much thicker too.

            I like the new stuff much better than that original stuff

      2. Shoeman | Jul 27, 2009 04:04pm | #48

        Yes, I use no coat for outside corners as well.

        Don't have to worry about it getting bent up in the van in transport either.

         

  10. Stilts | Jul 25, 2009 10:01pm | #28

    For rocking tools:  First and foremost a good tape measure.  A 4' square, chalk line, good utility knife, preferably fixed blade.  Keyhole saw, the newer ones with honest to god sharp teeth on them are best, they're handy for all sorts of other cutting, I've even used them to cut wood backing in a pinch.  If you're doing a lot of full sheets, you might consider getting a drywall screwgun, but if not I'd just stick with a dimpler on a cordless or corded drill.  Why spend $80 to $120 on a specialty tool that will get very little use by you.  If doing quite a few full sheets you'll probably want to pick up one of the cheaper kickers, if there's only a few sheets a flat bar over a hammer will probably work just fine.  A surform plane or very rough rasp will help fine tune the more difficult cuts so it all goes together nice.

    For finishing tools : 14" stainless pan, 6" knife, 10" knife, 12" knife, and various other smaller knives that you might need depending on what you need need between any trim and corners.  A pole sander is essential, I've heard good things about the radius 360, might not be worth the money for diy stuff, but then again beginners have a heck of a time with a traditional pole sander flipping sometimes.  A couple of fine medium sanding sponges will work wonders in the angles.  You'll want a decent sized drill and beater, even the pre mixed mud works much better if spun up, and if you're texturing you definitely need to thin it.  Speaking of texturing, a hopper and decent sized compressor are going to be necessary, unless you rent.

    I've got literally hundreds of tools in addition to these for rocking, finishing, and texturing, but these are the basics that you'll really need to get the job done right.  I think that I'd avoid buying a whole ton of specialty stuff if I was you, save the money for the necessary items on the next phase of the project.  Most of the stuff I listed will come in handy for other fix up projects around the house as well.

     

    P.S.- As far as nothing going back in the bucket...that makes for a ton of waste.  Get rid of any chunky or wore out mud, but if it's just occasional little chunks toss those out or store them in the ends of your pan, then you can scoop the good stuff in the middle back into the bucket, and toss all the stuff that's built up towards the ends.

  11. Zano | Jul 26, 2009 01:11am | #29

    I read the thread fast and I gather your a beginner. Advice to you..let a pro do it for you otherwise you'll be spending time, effort and money and still won't be right.

  12. JeffinPA | Jul 26, 2009 01:31am | #30

    Kind of funny all the different application methods.

    I tape and coat with a 6" knife, coat and finish with an 8" knife.

    Rarely use my 12" knife.  Dont own anything bigger.

    I have a 14" or 16" trowel and a hawk but dont use them.

    I use a mud pan and paper tape.

    Never used the home made banjo but if you are taping a lot, it is a smart thing to do.

     

    I learned by watching production finishers and it still works for me.

    The angle of the blade to the wall is a not so very often addressed important facet of finishing. 

    Play around and pay attention to the blade angle to the wall as you do different things and you wiill hopefully get the feel.

    Day 1 tape

    Day 2 (or day 1 if you use quick set mud) bed in flat tape and one side of corner tapes.  (throw out the corner finishing tools if you bought them, in my humble opinion)

    Day 3 bed in the other side of corners and coat the butt joints

    Day 4 skim everything.

    Scrape each day before you start coating to knock off the ridges.  (I use my 6" or 8" knife for that)

    If you have the time, sample with all the different suggestions and see what works for you.

    1. sapwood | Jul 26, 2009 02:45am | #31

      1. Get a banjo... it will make the job go faster and will give a better joint.
      2. Work fast enough so that the mud doesn't harden in the pan. Then you can put the excess back into the bucket and not waste it. If you can't work fast enough to keep it from hardening then put less into your tray.
      3. If you want smooth wall then its best to adopt a killer attitude. Tell yourself that you will trowel the mud smooth. Tell yourself that you don't need to sand. Its a zen thing. You have to believe it. In between coats simply take a large knife and knock off the high zits and wiggles. Then mud another coat. If you get a nasty spot on an otherwise great area, don't go back over it... just let it harden and fill or knock it back on the next go-around.
      4. Sanding is done only at the very last and then by hand with a raking light to show imperfections. Fill at that time with mud that is slightly tinted. That way you can see where you just were. Yeah, I know, I said no sanding... but a little at the appropriate time is just human. I have seen what must be inhuman tapers... truly, no sanding. I'm not one of those guys.

      1. Danno | Jul 26, 2009 05:36pm | #35

        Yeah, I know, I said no sanding... but a little at the appropriate time is just human. I have seen what must be inhuman tapers... truly, no sanding. I'm not one of those guys.

        I agree with you--and I have had one devil of a time convincing people I've worked with to do it that way. I say we are going to fill in gradually to get up to the final, smooth surface, not glob the mud on and then sand down to a sort of smooth surface (in meantime, roughing up the adjacent drywall paper, sanding through the tape, etc.). I've had big arguments about this. People seem to love to sand--personally, I hate it.

        Had one guy take a power sanding pole to butt seems I had worked hard on to smooth out after amateurs pretty well messed the hanging up, and he went right through the tape, so I had to start over! Then everyone shunned me because I pitched a fit (they couldn't understand why I didn't think this new power sander w/vacuum was just the best thing since sliced bread.) [That was my last trip to do Katrina relief with that bunch. They still don't understand why I stopped going to the Gulf with them.]

        1. User avater
          Joe | Jul 27, 2009 12:48am | #36

          I have a descent article on my site that I did about 10 years ago, but it still would apply now to simple or standard drywalling and taping.http://www.josephfusco.org/Articles/Drywall/drywall.htm

          View Image

          http://www.josephfusco.org

          http://www.constructionforumsonline.com

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