I am working on a bedroom remodel(own house).
House is 1904 2-1/2 story with basic hip roof.
9/12
Rafters are 2 X 6.
Joists are 2 X 8.
About 7′ ridge.
I did have an acquaintance of mine who is an architect(commercial) take a look at the following and he said it would be good to go and while we had the builder with us he told the builder where he should double up on some 2 X 8’s for added integrity.
What we are wanting to do is open up a 5′ X 8′ section in our bedroom ceiling room. Put a spiral staircase into the proposed portion of the attic directly above our room which will be framed out and finished.
I have done some extensive research/reading on venting and insulating the cathedral type ceiling and feel I am just about at a solution on that. Just looking for confirmation and second opinioin since the architect mentioned his primary work is in commercial. My question here is…..
Does this sound structurally ok? The joists run in the direction perpindicular to the ridge, similar as a regular gable roof. Just below is a rough sketch of the layout.
I just attached a photo of the inside of the roof. This would be the top the left corner of the rough sketch.
Replies
Basic hip roof/remove some joist
Jefsboys, Need to know the span of ceiling joist. I don't think 2x8 ceiling joist would be enough to support a live load up there. What would you use the space for?
Floor joist detail.
Thank you very much for your time and response.
The joists being 28' across are structurally supported across the center all the way down to a large beam in the basement supported by pillars.
So the span that is unsupported is 15'. The flooring on these 2X8 joists in the attic is 1X6 hardwood T&G.
Currently the attic space is used for storage.
The plans are that this portion of the attic will be used for our bedroom closet space and reading area. The area that we are wanting to frame out will only be the top left 1/4 that you see in the original sketch above.
I just added a more detailed sketch of this particular area of the attic we are working in.
I also measured the span more closely, it is 15'.
Jeffrey
jeff
2x8's -str. sel. Douglas Fir on 12" centers would be a stretch. I'm no engineer, but dbl'ing up a couple doesn't sound like the right idea.
Thank you for the input.
That is not what I am proposing. That is what is there, has been there since 1904. All the information provided and the drawings are based on the current structure, what was originally built in 1904. The attic floor is actually solid.
The only thing on my rough sketches that isn't currently there is where I identified the 5' X 8' possible opening for the spiral staircase.
jef
The attic floor is actually solid.....
Well then, I stand corrected. Best of luck on your project.
I didn't mean anything disrepectful. I have done a lot of reading on bouncy floors and such and I guess that is where that comment from, not that because it feels solid that it should be ok.
I am not doing anything based on feel. I have no problems with canning the project if it is not safe. The safety of my family will come first.
I do appreciate you taking time to look this over.
jef
I don't think you'll have to worry about a catastrophic failure. However, as the load is increased and some of the frame is removed, dynamics change.
An architect sends structural questions to an engineer.
I'm just a dumb carpenter.
What was the plan for heading off that 8' opening in the now floor system?
In this area of NW Oh, I'd need an engineered drawing with backup to get a permit on this scope of work.
Again, best of luck in your project.
edit: Disrespect? Hey, typing on the internet is a poor form of communication at best. Throw reading on the internet in there and intentions are often clouded. 40 yrs in the trade have taught me to try and learn something everyday so this job doesn't get boring. Please come back and share your progress, it's nice to watch a transition take shape.
thanks.
Again, thank you very much for your time, all of you, it really is appreciated.
Quote: "What was the plan for heading off that 8' opening in the now floor system?"
The builder was here with the architect as this was being discussed, If I remember correctly he was going to at least double up the face with 2X8's on each side of the opening. And actually I could make the hole smaller if I use a smaller spiral staircase, I could simply have the opening only be around 4' in diameter and only remove 3 of the joists.
But it appears my biggest issue is that this is simply overspanned already, no matter how hard the wood is.
I have been doing a lot of reading on the hip roof and where the forces are applied. I think ideally if this was a square hip roof I would be pretty good in the sense of not pushing the wall out, but since this is not a sqaure that is not the case. I am not sure how the pressures on this are of the wall in such a case as mine where it is not square, and after hours + reading I am still not sure.
The permit thing is going to give away my home town size. We don't have to pull a permit. Our little "Village" is 600 people established in the early 1700's, we had what was probably one of the first forms of government in North America by the French in our town. I did check with the town to see about permits for building a shed and re-wiring the house and they said they didn't require it. I guess it never got addressed because for the longest time we couldn't build in our town due to being in low lying area, flood plain. Not that anyone is rushing in to build, you have to love this place to stick around.
The majority of the responses have me going to having an engineer come down and take a look. I guess if a little beefing up here and there would do it I may still proceed with the project. Would be my wifes dream bedroom with the iron spiral staircase into the loft. :-)
Don't forget,
come back and fill us in. This place used to be like the serial movie down at the theatre.
thanks.
When you cut the joists for access you'll remove the cross-bracing that the joists provide for the roof. The roof will then want to spread out, pushing the walls out. This isn't an intractable problem, but you need to run the numbers to make sure it's covered.
Dan,
The hips give him some help, but not so much the further away he gets with that opening.
It certainly isn't a simple "open up" job like many would think. I've had the opportunity to go into places that were old and they "opened up" something-funny what lack of frame and some years will do to a place. Not so easy to pull them back into shape.
Yes
No way would I touch this one without an engieer. What I see is that everything is already overspanned.
Punching holes in that system will not help it in the least
SE Contact and Fee Schedule
I am going to try and track down a SE in the area today. I see a couple listed in the yellow pages which are quite a few miles away. Maybe I should call GC and ask them if they have someone locally?
What should I expect from the engineer as far reviewing this?
How about fees, what is ballpark for doing this?
Floor sketch
I am waiting to hear back from a local inspector on some contact information for SE's.
Not an engineer, well I was a Flight Engineer in the Navy :-)(apples and oranges), this is all new to me... I sketched up something that came to mind...
jef
Be patient and wait for the engineer's assessment.
S.E.
Status:
I have a Structural Engineer coming over in the morning. Will update afterwards.
Thanks,
Jeffrey
Jeff
Good deal, it'll be interesting to hear what his thoughts are on this.
Any bets the "double up a couple" might get modified?
By the way, I'm unsure of the thinking in the sketch showing a stack of flat 2x8's and the one double joist that catches the headed off opening while the other doesn't get doubled.
One other question-did you hit the reply button under someones post or did you hit the confusing "reply to original" button? I ask because it looks like you're replying to yourself rather than to some other specific poster.
thanks.
:-) I'll take them one at
:-)
I'll take them one at a time. lol
Quote: "Any bets the "double up a couple" might get modified?" No bets from me. I'll keep my money to pay for the engineer. :-)
I am sure there will be a few things doubled/tripled, mostly my cost estimation for the project. I did later notice I didn't draw in a double joist there after I was done.
I have been known to talk to myself, but not my intention in front of people I don't know too well. :-)
This has been quite informative and fun so far and I really appreciate the fun on this forum in addition to the good advice.
Jeffrey
Jeffrey
While this might seem like fun-you shoulda been here 8/10 yrs ago.
Now, that was fun!
So, where do you live and perhaps a repeat of what you do?
thanks.
Live in Southern Illinois, just southeast of St. Louis, MO about 45 miles, little town called Prairie du Rocher.
I spent 5 years in the Navy as a Flight Engineer on the P-3C Orion. Spent 6 years as a machine builder(tolerances on certain equipment .005 of an inch). Have spent the past 10 years working on a computer, where I managed a web team for a while and then I asked to step down so I could spend more time with my family and serve/teach Jr. High kids about Jesus in my church. Still currenlty on the computer.
I bought a house 108 years old so I added a lot of major projects.
Engineers drawings should be in Monday. He said no problem with a couple of beams and some extra fasteners.
Jeff
Thank you, that's a nice story. Here at Breaktime it sometimes takes years to get to know a member-or surprising at one of the yearly Fests held around the country.
Probably both rewarding and sometimes scary working with the young folks. Very commendable.
And that's some close tolerances-learn to drop a couple zero's in your house rehab, or you'll go nuts.
See if he can scan the drawing to insert into an file so you can post it here.
Thanks and have a good weekend.
The initial pre-approved drawings. After the supervisor stamps these I will receive final copies.
Holy crap!
Quite a separation from
dbl.ing up a couple joists.........................................
While I knew there'd be some more guts to the opening framing, I'd never have guessed 4 LVL's.
Either he's a believer in possible overkill
or
He has stock in the engineered lumber company.
Wow
You will probably be shocked to hear that your framing isn't even close to modern standards and the engineer will want to throw a great deal of wood into your project. It's just what it takes for good framing.
Working on old houses there are two things that seem constant - clients all think that because a house has existed for 100 years it is well built (most aren't) and that any carpenter/architect/engineer worth their salt should be able to take substandard 100 year old framing and with a few simple modifications use attic space never built for floor loads for everything from bedrooms to dance halls.
Nothing you need is complicated - but it isn't free in terms of installation labor or materials.
Actually, many older homes are quite well built, but you couldn't build them again the same way, for two reasons:
Wood of the same quality is no longer available (and code is written assuming currently available wood quality).
Workmanship of the same quality is no longer available (and code is written assuming "average" workmanship).
Still waiting on engineers drawings. I believe he said along with the printed copies that he would email me an electronic copy.
Interesting on the old wood... one thing I found very interesting while working on this house and doing various crack repairs to the old plaster is that I discovered that the picture rails had the name of the lumber yard stamped on the back of them. It is actually a lumber yard that use to be in my home town here, although I have never seen it other than an old picture.
With that, the wood for the house was probably cut locally, unless brought in by rail. While doing some repairs and updating I have discovered that a 5 lb hammer could make driving nails into this hardwood very much easier. Seriously though, driving nails into this can be a chore and very tiring when hanging the rib lathe over head as mentioned below.
A lot of the ceilings had some major cracks in the plaster and was sagging, in the sagging and dangerous portions I removed those plaster ceilings and went back up with 3/8 metal rib lathe and did the 3 coat plaster again. Still have two more ceilings to finish that on. Half of the ceilings in the house I was able to repair using some historic home renovation procedures I discovered and researched online.
I beg to differ - old houses I've worked on (and that's been my specialty for a half dozen years) are almost always overspanned on floor joists and roof rafters....beams are undersized, footings are woefully undersize and any room made for mechanicals is often chopped out with an ax! I have yet to see an old house with original plumbing installed without an ax! lol The proof is obvious - these are the things that I have to upgrade on every project, not only to pass code, which is basic at best, but to meet above average building standards.
Old houses also have very limited allowances for mechanical, plumbing and electrical....it's just a fact.
I love the character of old houses and many aspects of them win my heart over anything mass produced today, but it's love-hate....I have a hard time with old houses that aren't upgraded. Upgrade substandard framing, electrical, mechanical, plumbing, add a modern sized bathroom and kitchen....freshen up 100 years of wear and tear and NOW we're talking about a great place to live! lol
This is what I do for a living and my clients think along the same lines.
:)