I live on a 50×100 city lot and want to know where my property lines are in order to put up a fence. I don’t really need 100% accuracy and don’t feel like spending $400 to have it done professionally.
Couldn’t I rent a transit and do a fairly decent job myself? How would I go about it? Are there any good books/websites?
Thanks.
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Replies
A couple of years ago a neighbor of ours across the street was thinking "I don't need 100% accuracy I'm only putting up a fence" and ended putting up a fence that at times encroached on an easement that ran between his property and ours. And another side of his property he actually got off course and went over the property line by some 10 or more feet in places on to another neighbors property and ended up spending his money on a lawyer to consul him when his mistakes were challenged and ultimately spent a lot of money to dig up those concrete footed posts he had errantly installed.
If you are going to put this fence up right along you property line I would spend the $400 to get it right and that would also help protect you somewhat liability wise having a licensed surveyor perform the task. Indeed in some towns I know of it required to get the permit. You better check with your building department first.
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Edited 7/27/2003 11:39:47 AM ET by Jerrald Hayes
If things were done there at your place like it was done here. There should be one peg in each corner of your property on the line. If you find the pegs that does not mean that is property line. That means some one though that was property line when they placed the pegs.
Now as far as hiring a surveyor is concerned. All he can do is give you is his educated opine as to where the line is. That is because he used some known marker to measure to find the lot line. That marker he used may or may not be in the right place.
Your city may not allow you to build a fence on the property line you may need to set it back so you can mow on both sides of the fence and to maintain it with out steeping foot on the neighbors property.
Edited 7/27/2003 1:38:12 PM ET by fredsmart
Now as far as hiring a surveyor is concerned. All he can do is give you is his educated opine as to where the line is. That is because he used some known marker to measure to find the lot line. That marker he used may or may not be in the right place.
Wrong. A surveyor will give you the most accurate report of your property boundries. Its not an educated opinion. Using benchmarks, plat records, legal descriptions you will get actual pins at your corners, even elevation from sea level if so desired. Along with title insurance companies the surveyors and the county deeds recorder will give you your legal property boundries, its required by law.
Really it is not surveyor opine where lot lines are it is a fact after they get done doing the work? Then can you tell me why two different state license surveyors had about 4 ft discrepancy on where lot line was if it is not opine. Why did the two parties ended up in court?
It is only opine unless a judge after hearing the proof of why that is where the lot line and judge finding the proof is true.
First off the surveyor takes a recorded plat showing lat and long down to section and subsections as per the recorded plat in teh county and state. That information is researched by the title company using the offical recorded deeds as per that state.
So each surveyor as per their figures found the line. Most likely two seperate benchmarks were used bringing up figures. Lot corners are accurately placed by competent surveyors in correlation with lat and long townships and sections etc. Youre trying to blame the messenger, its really not opinion. The error lays in the title companies and recorder of the deeds of title.
The surveyors survey from bona fide figures, not some made up numbers they pull out of their butt. Ive had hundreds of lots and dozens of streets and miles of utilities and easements surveyed over the years for development and real estate sales most errors are usually at the hands of the title insurance companies and rarely surveyors.
Your error was from three different scenarios.... Error from surveyor equipment and compuation, the figures on your deed of title or the figures from the county of the state in which you reside. YOu never stated much other then your fiasco with a surveyor in which you try to tell the owner its nothing more then opine, the educated formal guessing. Which its really not the case.
Well, Fred, surveys happen. I can't offer any opinion as to why two licensed and presumably competent survey crews could be that far apart. I do know that when I had my two acres surveyed, the crew found an existing pin at one corner and were within 1/10 of a foot of agreeing on the location.
As to the fence question, take the advice given and have your property surveyed. Unless you decide to put your fence posts on pedestals so they can be easily moved. (grin)
...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Many years ago my father had a neighbor who put up a fence on his
property.
He used a set of hedges as his guide to the property line.
My father was very upset, because the fence was intruding onto our
property.
When the neighbor said too bad, my father cut the hedge to the ground
and disposed of it.
Made the neighbor real mad who threatened to sue.
My father showed him the survay map, showing the hedge and fence on
our property. Told him to sue and also remove the fence.
Needless to say, accuracy is important.
Don't think it can't happen to you, it can.
Hire an expert.
Jeff
IMHO, unless you've had hands-on instruction from a working pro on how to set up and how to turn an angle, then you'd be just as well off guessing. Many universities that have civil engineering faculties have their curriculae online, so the instruction should be there - if the accuracy of measurement doesn't scare you, then the math required to triangulate to sub-inch precision will.
Speaking of guessing, if this is a city lot, then you should have a site survey from when you purchased the property (or, if your lawyer kept it, you can get a copy from what-ever form of land registry you have there and ask the clerk how accurate the foundation positioning is). Anyway, if you think a guess is close enough AND your neighbours agree, you can usually approximate the lot lines from the foundations of the three houses and eyeball it in. Back-check to a couple of local monuments or reliable features (fire hydrants, manholes, and permanent utility features {except poles} are good).
Another method of approximation is to find someone nearby who did spend the money for a survey (fence, addition, transfer of deed, ...) and delta off their known features - but you'll still need the site survey.
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
The $400 you don't want to spend will give you a couple of things; an accurate location of your corners and property lines, and a survey conducted by a licensed surveyor.
The survey, if properly done, will be originated off a benchmark that may not even be in your neighborhood. Even with modern GPS equipment, the surveyors I work with must still reference original surveys because there may be conflicts between what was originally done and errors either in the original survey and more recent ones.
When a survey is done properly by a pro, his work should be recorded with the city or county and is a legal document which protects you and that the surveyor is responsible for.
As to doing it yourself, there is more to surveying than running some equipment; especially if you live in an older neighborhood, the surveyor often spends considerable time researching survey records prior to the field work.
Hire the surveyor for $400 and get it done. It is illegal in all states that I know of, to survey your own property, unless you are a licensed surveyor (and even then, it's sketchy). The money will be well spent, you will know where your corners and lines are, and you won't get sued by a pissed-off neighbor when he finds out that you did it yourself and was wrong, and put the fence on his property.
In my anonymous city, located in south west California near a big bay full of gray navy ships, our sidewalks have little brass buttons nailed to them at what seems to be the property lines. You might check your local sidewalk.
Also check your county recorder or clerks office. They should have the plats.
~Peter
Ditto everything WmP and Notchman had to say. In my younger days, I used to work as a "rod" man for a local county surveyor. I can honestly say the "math" part of surveying is definately not the hardest part....nor is knowing (learning) how to set up your equipment properly....the hardest part of surveying is KNOWING WHERE TO FIND YOU FIRST BENCHMARK.
A lot of research of county records relating to boundary descriptions must be done by a competent surveyor. A pro looks not only at just your boundary description, but also reviews several nearby properties and their boundary descriptions so that he/she can make a sound judgement based on all related facts.
Knowing how to research, and what to research, and how to disseminate what is pertinent or not, is the real "key" to surveying. Learning how to properly set up and take readings is secondary.
Pay the money....get a licensed surveyor who will both validate his work with proper I.D. stamps and will also submit said survey to be properly recorded into county records.
Anything less than this on your part will dearly get you into trouble down the road...guarenteed!
Davo
You are so right about benchmark locating.
Around here, it pays to hire the regular surveyor because he knows every locate on the island like he knows the names of his children, grandchildren, and cousins, and only forgets the occasional ex-wife.
Hire another surveyor from away because you are in a hurry, and you might spend twice as much mulla.
Excellence is its own reward!
And here's another vote for spending the $400.00.
If it helps to justify the cost: remember that the survey will not be just for the fence. You will have it for future reference, too.
I paid for an official survey and boy was I glad I did. Had the surveyor stake out for my new garage 5' off the lot line (regs said 3' was min). Stakes sat there for 3 weeks. Neighbor drove down his driveway every day about 10' away from the stakes.
Excavator showed up to dig for footings and frost wall. Neighbor comes out and tells him that he is digging on hid property. When I got home from work, I gave him a copy of the survey, my permit, and the regs listing set backs for our area. End of discussion.
Since then, I have used the survey for a shoreline project, and I know that I will use it when the time comes to rebuild the house.
Even if you are not planning anything other than doing the fence, the survey will be a nice addition to your home records and something you can show prospective buyers.
After readiing all of these posts I'll give you my two cents worth as a surveyor with 30 years experience.
To build your fence, get out your deed or abstract, or whatever you have, and see if it has any dimensions on it. These can either be in the drawing or in the legal description of the property as "calls."
These will read, " from a steel pin in the S/W corner of Lot 17, N 30 E, 100.00' to a nail in a root of a 18" Red Oak tree located in the N/W corner of said lot." If yo don't have this, go to your City or County records and they'll give you a copy of both.
These dimensions and descriptions will tell you what to look for, and where. If you can rent or borrow a metal detector, it'll help.
Find all of the called for corners, and stretch a tape between them, and check your distances as close as you can. They'll be in hundreths (.01) not inches and feet (0' 0").
Check for Public Utility Easements, {PUE's) and ordinances that will prevent you from building on these.
Clear the lines that you want to fence, pull 1' behind each pin on the line you want to fence. That'll be your line, with no chance of encroachment on the adjacent property.
A $400 lot survey generally does not include any instrument set up if all of the corners are present. It is just for the location of your corners.
Any survey is only as good as it's starting point. Usually, it is monumentation in the streets or Right of Way (ROW) and not subdivision corners.
I have a similar need, I have a 90' x 265' rectangular lot that I will install a privacy fence on in the spring. I work in excavation and underground utilities, so I work with surveyors for staking pretty frequently.
My property had a type of survey done a long time ago that does not set benchmarks and has an accuracy of +/- .5' I have a drawing showing a 16.5' offset from one side and a 9.75' offset from the garage to the side property lines. A survey company I use at work and did the original survey wants $850 to set corner benchmarks. I have thought about trying to determine the p/l myself and setting back 2' or 3' for safety. My neighbor's landscaping and mowing service encroaches on my property so there may be some conflict to that side.
I hadn't thought of using hydrants or mh's as benchmarks but I should be able to get street stationing, my concern is figuring out where one propertly line begins at the street and then I can measure off the 90' to determine the other p/l. The survey company was concerned if the nearest side street and the street behind us had curbs and that makes sense now. I assume to shoot the line I would use a compass on a transit once I knew where the p/l is. Is this a good guess?
I probably can't afford the survey anyway. It may not be much, but when you add it all up.... new babies too.... complete remodel.... wife quit work to stay home...
tx remodeler
First off, if I was in your position, I'd talk to the neighbor and see if he would split the cost of a survey of your common line, and/or the cost of the fence.
Barring that, find out what the ROW of the streets in question are, split the center line as close as possible and use that as your front line. Rent or bum a metal detector, and look for any original pins along the ROW, including adjacent properties.
Sounds like you have PUE's along some of your lines. Check to see if you can fence within these. Unless they're drainage easements, you usually can erect non-permanant structures within them with the understanding that if the need arises, they will be removed at your expense.
If you find pins along your front, do the same on the back, and try to produce lines from these to set your common boundries.
Everybody needs to remember that surveying is not an arcane art. Anybody with a good calculator and a bit of trigonometry can do a reasonably good job. Bearings are usually what screws people up, so buy a book on surveying, and find out how to calculate'em.
Check and see if your city or county will flag your ROW along the streets. They may or may not locate your front pins, but you will have a etablished ROW.....
You are making LOTS of assumptions that may or may not be true.
While it is true that land sales have legal descriptions some of them go back to "starting by the oak tree by the creek" and that requires lots of expertise.
Now where I like is a little more moderized. Now my legal description list Lot and Block in a plated developement.
And I have a copy of the plate map.
But there is nothing on the plate map that clearly indicates where it is. Yes section lines are shown, but they don't land on any specific lot corner or other reference where you could exactly reference a point to the section lines. Thus must be something better, but I have not seen it.
In fact my next door neighbor had his surveyed and his survey claims to have found something showing that one of my lot lines in 25 ft where all of my documentation show 30ft. But that is not a "problem" as the it only affects if that corner is 5 or 12 ft over on my property and the house has been there since the mid 30's.
I thnik that the problems go back to 1928 when the roads where laid out and the power poles put in. the teleophone pole appears to have been assumed to be the property line. And the jog in the angle of the lots is way to sharp for the road to follow. When people on the other side of the road had their lot surveyed they corner is more than 1/2 way across the road.
Bill,
You're exactly right. All of my experience is in Texas, which is entirely different from all other states.
However, logic should tell you that there is some kind of legal description for any piece of real property, and this would be available for copy or examination at the appropriate authority.
USGS has monumented the entire US, and most surveys done now are tied to this system, both vertically and horizontally. Most states/counties/cities require that any surveys done be tied to this system before inclusion within their GIS database.
As far as "calls" go, I've seen descriptions that include " the north line of said property is the distance that a man riding a horse at a walk, can roll and smoke three cigarettes."
"As far as "calls" go, I've seen descriptions that include " the north line of said property is the distance that a man riding a horse at a walk, can roll and smoke three cigarettes.""
That is a good one.
You might be interested in the book "Diary of an Early American Book", but Eric Sloane. I will give more details about it in the Tavern. But in it he discusses how they used to walk the property boundry each year, this was in 1805, to check for encroachment, but more important to remember and teach the children what the markers where for the boundries.
"You're exactly right. All of my experience is in Texas, which is entirely different from all other states.
However, logic should tell you that there is some kind of legal description for any piece of real property, and this would be available for copy or examination at the appropriate authority.
USGS has monumented the entire US, and most surveys done now are tied to this system, both vertically and horizontally. Most states/counties/cities require that any surveys done be tied to this system before inclusion within their GIS database."
I am sure that is true, but the question is how far "back", both physically and documentation wise to get to a good know point and then work forward to get to their property. Can the average person do that.
Now I know that in most cases you don't have these much problems. And that you can go from things like where the neighbors pins are, but the problem is that you never know when there is problem with those.
Generally, unless gross errors or fraud can be proven, the most "senior" of surveys takes precedent. That is to say the oldest.
If you are doing research, start with the field notes of the most recent survey, and look for references to earlier surveys. Go back as far as needed to find the original starting point(s). If these can be located then you have an exellent basis to solve your problem.
Accuracy of instruments, computations, and competence of surveyors have improved orders of magnitude within just the last 20 years with the use of Electronic Distance Measurement (EDM's) GPS, and computers that can be taken into the field. Even with the inaccruacy of earlier methods, the observations and measurements of elder surveys can and do remain in the records as "true."
Any Registered Professional Land Surveyor (RPLS) would be glad to answer your questions to point you in the right direction as to where and how to obtain information.
Well I have some ideas for some remodeling which will requiire a n addition and I pushing the setback so I will need an new survey.
When I get that I will be asking lots of questions about what they are using as source material and what other source material that there is.
I had my surveyed in 78 when I built my house. But of the 7 markers (2 irregular lots with a break in one line) on one still exist. One was on a concrete wall ajoining the "goog neighbor" and it has weathered away. Another was on a stone at the corner of a flower bed and that is all gone. One was in the driveway of the "bad neighbor" and that was gone when they torn out the driveway and replaced it with concrete.
And 2 of the front markers when when the yard was graded.
The "bad" neighbor only had a mortgage survey, which is marked not having any value, and it showed an "assumded boundry line" until the new owner had it surveyed last year.
My survey just shows my lot without reference to anything else. But his shows 4 house to the SE to pick up a lot with corners with "bars" and one corner with "found" nail and he had to 4 house to the NE to steel post that marks an access way. The lots are all in an arc around a lake.
Then he shows my one pin and another pipe that was found.
Now I now that the pathway markers have been replaced and wheren't surveyed in so even in the old ones where in the right place the replacements might be off a couple of inches.
But it appears that he then took those points that he found and did a best fit to put the lots in between.
A lot of the lot line lenghts are off from with the plat shows by 9" to 3 ft. (Ingoring the 5ft "error" the lenght of one my lines).
None of those affect me and most of mine lines are exact except the two that are affected by the 5 ft quesion and that is academic as that house has been there for years.
But it does raise the question in my mine what is "right" and where is the starting point.
As I said I will ask some questions when I get mine resurvyed. Mostly for my own enlightenment and not to try and "fix" anything.
Bill,
A few tips on what to ask for when you contract for the survey:
1) Ask the surveyor to locate your dwellings relative to the nearest lot lines and include that on a drawing, or a floppy/CD that you can use in your computer.
2) Ask for "ties" to be made for all pins set. A "tie" is a measurement to a nail in a tree, or a cross cut in concrete or rock, or the corner of a structure from a pin. You usually need at least two "ties" per pin. If the pin is destroyed, you can reset the pin using the intersection between the two ties. Be sure these are included on your sketch.
3) If you need vertical control, now would be the time to get it done. Ask the surveyor to set a BM (bench mark) and provide you the elevation.
4) If there are any structures or trees that are in dispute with your adjoiners, have the surveyor include these on the sketch. You may want to have him set a temporary point(s) near these, and you can photograph these for future reference.
5) Let your neighbors know that you are having a survey done. If the surveyor can get another job in that area at the same time, he may give you a discount.
Good luck.
I have noticed some of the "community serveys" around here. My lot is not the only one that has these kinds of problems. I have seen area where it they put up flags along 6 - 8 lots.
"1) Ask the surveyor to locate your dwellings relative to the nearest lot lines and include that on a drawing, or a floppy/CD that you can use in your computer."
Yes, I was going to do that. I have a "mortage survey" that does show the house. But the way that the show it makes it very difficult to use the information to plot it on a CAD drawing. The way that they show it would problably be fine for a standard rectangular lot and a house square to the lot. But I have a 5 sided lot and the house is not square to any line. I was thing about asking for X,y refereces from one corner and lot line to the 6 corners of the house. That would work for me, but I don't know if that is a practical way for them to do it.
"2) Ask for "ties" to be made for all pins set. A "tie" is a measurement to a nail in a tree, or a cross cut in concrete or rock, or the corner of a structure from a pin. You usually need at least two "ties" per pin. If the pin is destroyed, you can reset the pin using the intersection between the two ties. Be sure these are included on your sketch."
I had never heard of those, but that is a great idea. I was think of getting them to extra markers so that it would be easy for me to run a string showing the setback.
With that I could do the layout for each phase of of work that I want to do without having to get it surveyed each time.
The city (350 houses) does not really care where the building is, just as long as it is not over the setback and really the only care about the one on the lakeside.
Bill,
When you talk with the surveyor, take the info on the type of CAD you have so he could format it to something you can use.
If they have to do a complete survey of you tract, it'll be most likely that they will have electronic distance measurement (EDM) capability. I can't see any survey company not having this equipment and using it on any survey. The crew will usually have two members. One running the gun and punching in data, and one running the "rod."
It's no problem for them to walk to each corner of your dwelling and getting shots so it can be accuately plotted. You could even get the GPS coordinates if you want.
They'll probably come out one day, find all the points, get a few measurements, then after the computations are done, come back and set your corners, and the ties, and do what flagging and other tasks you have for them. It'll be a few more days after that before the drawing and description are ready.
Make sure that the person who signs the plat is a RPLS, and that they are liscensed and bonded.
You may also want to get shots along the lake edge and include those in your plat.
I heard this story years ago in a class. It's probably apocryphal, but it works as a morality tale . . .
There's an industrial subdivision with zero-setback lot lines. First developer puts the walls up on a tiltup building to the property line. The guy next door does a survey and discovers the first guy is over the property line by one inch. Second guy approaches the first guy and demands an exorbitant amount for the encroachment. First guy says, sorry, that's too much.
A few days later the second guy puts the walls on HIS tiltup building right up next to the first guy's building. Then he approaches the first guy again and demands the same exorbitant amount with a threat to go to court if he doesn't cave.
First guy suggests a resurvey. Second guy insists the first survey was fine. First guy says, yeah, it probably was, but right after you talked to me the first time I had a guy come in and shave two inches off my wall.
good info from tom.. another thing to consider is whenever you have a survey, ask the surveyor for a price to "monument the survey"..
IE: after he locates the points he can install a granite or concrete bound at the major points..
then just make sure you keep them visible and you will always know, and your neighbor will always know, where your line is..
typically.. a monument might add $200 to the survey cost..
when your neighbor has his land surveyed, the next surveyor will usually use your monuments.. or if he disputes them , you will know about it.. if the old oak stake put in 15 years ago is no longer there, and a new survey comes up different, how would you know.. monuments are cheap title insuranceMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
after reading these post i brougth the rebar locator home from work to find my corners. within twenty minutes I found two buried corner markers (#5 rebar) and about a thousand nails. want to have fun, throw some nails out on the neighbor corners, he find them one day.
Like your approach Tom, read thru all the blather till I got to yours
#1 TALK TO THE NEIGHBOR --
my neighbor and I simply agreed to where he could put his fence, easy decision for me as he put it 4 feet inside his propertery line on my verbal promise only that I would not cut down any of the trees 10 feet on my side of the fence without talking to him first. This is in an area outside Seattle with property values nearing $200K an acre (he's on 1/2 acre next to my 4)
I live in a city. Property description as far as I can tell reads, "Lot 2, Block 260, Supplemental Map of the town of...etc, page 42, in the auditor's office of said county, etc". I don't see any reference to "calls" or any other more specific dimensions. Would these be available at auditor's?
Any real property bought or sold must have a "legal description."
That would include the county, city, subdivision, and the particular location within that subdivision. The description should be available at your local taxing authority be it a city hall, county seat or auditor.
$400 seems pretty cheap, if that is really the price for a stamped survey of your property you ought to make an appointment right now. We had one done for our pending remodel, $1500...and it was worth it.
When you bought the property there was a survey. Find the company that did it and ask for an updated survey. In Chicago it costs about two hundred dollars for an update. Most of the time they drive by and see if anything has changed from the last survey. If not they put on a new date and issue the survey.
I'm a real estate broker in rural Colorado and can only speak regarding what goes on around here with surveys and surveyors.
Spend the $ and hire the surveyor who does the most work in the area of your lot. Ask the neighbors or a real estate broker who handles property in your neighborhood.
Surveys ARE opinions. Can't begin to describe how many survey conflicts I've seen... In some areas there are sections that are 3/4 mile by 1 1/2 miles. All townships that I know of have correction sections along the north side and west side of the township.
Yes, all surveys must start with a POB (point of beginning). Not all POB's are created equally! I still commonly find stones with chisel marks in them. Some of the field notes in our courthouse date from well over 100 years ago and refer to a tree...
It has been stated here that surveys are required. This is only the case in some areas / States. There are LOTS of properties around here that have NEVER been surveyed!
Around here title insurance companies only insure new ALTA surveys and almost no one wants to pay for one. Thus, the title company will only laugh if you ask them where a property boundary is located.
Found pins mean nothing without the field notes from the surveyor who set them. There are radius pins, offset pins, easements pins, corner pins, etc. etc.
Also, pins and stones can be moved by anyone who doesn't like the results of the survey.
Some counties have a county cartographer. When you go to the building department to ask questions, ask if there is a county cartographer. S/he may be able to help you.
On a humorous note: A lady called me after she'd had her property surveyed by someone I recommended. She was really mad because the surveyor HAD STOLEN SEVEN OF HER ACRES! He musta had a big truck...
I tell my clients that they can depend on fence lines: All of them are wrong.
Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.
if you are interested in how our american system of land measurement came about i can highly recommend "Measuring America".. fascinating read on how we got to where we areMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore