I don’t think the mechanics of a bat would allow for a bite as it flies straight out. That’d be like a mouse running past your ankle at full get away speed…but turning his head and taking a quick nip at your foot….just ain’t gonna happen.
Bat’s may bite if you grab them…but you aren’t their food of choice. Bat’s are our friends…….imagine the mosquito population without them! Best little bug eaters there are! Jeff
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Replies
1) A bat can't hit & run (as Jeff already explained) and they are not aggressive; generally unless the bat ran right into your arm and got a little tangled up, it would not stop and bite.
2) Rabbies is not as common as most people think.
3) Unless your doctor is near-blind, he should be able to tell you if you have point of entry for the rabbies, or any other virus, especially when you were able to narrow the search point down to such a small area.
4) You really don't want the shots; I hear they are much better than the 1960's vintage shots; but still, you don't want the shots.
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
This is the Center for Disease Control's page on this issue. Lots of info on this page and in the links.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/rabies/
You disturbed sleeping bats in the daytime. The bats weren't behaving unusually. That should be reassuring. But you sound like you need some more info and reassurance. Go back to the doctor, and talk it through until you feel safe. We can offer opinions and information, but your decision has to be made with the Doc.
You can choose to be part of the solution, or part of the problem. Or like me, you can be an overachiever, and do both.
Chill out. Years ago was doing quite a bit of spelunking. Questions about bats are common. After asking around we could find only one suspected bat bite and no case of catching rabies from bats. Thousands of hours spent around bats and only one suspected bat bite. From the description it was thought to be a scratch gotten when avoiding the bat. The guy got stuck in a 2' square hole when several thousand bats went out for an evening meal. From the accounts he screamed like a girl.
Look at it this way. That bat is eating mosquitoes that are infected with West Nile virus. Don't freak out.
If you start craving water, but your throat is too sore to drink it; if you start suffering from an incurable headache that makes you nauseous, you start foaming at the mouth and you start feeling aggressive, have a Tee shirt made as soon as possible that says:
"DANGER!!! I am afflicted with rabies. If I bite you, get rabies shots immediately!!! (A CYA effort to protect your heirs from lawsuits).
Meanwhile, have someone close to you that you trust send your head to the nearest Veterinary research center for evaluation.
Best of luck!!
You forgot to mention making up a list of all those people you want to bite before you die.......
To BHACKMAN: You don't mention what area you are from, or what kind of bat you saw. Several bats in an attic or similar space, wingspan of 6 - 8 inches .... Probably Little Brown Bat. Insect eaters, like swallows, eat their weight in bugs every night - mostly mosquitos. However, as someone posted, their teeth are very small, so an actual bite could be very hard to spot, and in order to transmit Rabies, the tooth does not nave to completely penetrate the skin.
The incidence of Rabies in bats is small, but unlike most other animals, they can survive infection for a relatively long time, all the while shedding the virus in saliva, urine, etc-- I have the reference at the office, but there are a couple of cases on record of spelunkers becoming infected in spite of personal protective equipment, presumably by inhaling aerosolized bat urine.
Up this way, post-exposure Rabies treatment consists of a dose of vaccine (a real vaccine too, not the old Pasteur treatment) and a shot of antiserum in the "cheek". Depending on the manufacturer's recommendations, this would be repeated two or three times over a two week period. It's a little bit uncomfortable, but no worse than a flu shot and a boot in the arse. There are very very few complications or side effects, and its very effective in preventing infection.
You are likely at very little risk, but considering that a); Rabies is invariably fatal, b) Its not a pleasant way to go, and c): When signs/symptoms appear the damage has been done and there is no effective treatment, well, its like I used to tell the first wife, Its better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
Good health
Doc
A guy here in the mountains of Idaho got bitten by a rabid bat just a couple of months ago. One in a million chance, etc., etc., but he's scared to death he is going to die. Rabies is fatal unless treated early. I'd hate it, but I'd probably get the shots if it were me.
Holy tarpaper, Batman !! Do you think we'll have to shoot him like old yeller ?
Only one way to find out, Robin. If he froths at the mouth when we show him a 3-tab, pull that trigger. Now, get the batgun ready.
To the batroof !!! Quittin' Time
The accepted protocol for bats exposure is SHOTS!!!!! You do not have to have evidence of a puncture. There was a little girl in WA that died from rabies after waking up in her bedroom with a dead bat in the corner. She was taken to a Dr. who examined her and found no evidence of a bite. She is DEAD. Rules now are, among Dr.s who read, that any such exposure gets treated w/ shots. This story is not urban lore, it is a recorded fact, and used to be referred to in the Rabies books published by most states. My Vet gave me her copy after I got exposed a few yrs ago. My case was to coyote brains after my son shot one in the head and splattered it brains all over a NW MO county. I had two Dr.s tell me I didn't need shots. Same reason as you. Vet said I did. Finally found the right ER Doc, a woman who trained in Poland, (So much for derisive Polish jokes) who didn't even give me a chance to sit still before she was sending for the serum.
This is a bad case. Suppose the Dr. was wrong about your exposure. You die a horrible, agonizing, miserable death in about 90 days. He snaps his fingers and says "Aw, ****, I missed the diagnosis! Sorry about that, widow Hackford."
How bad are the shots? Heck, they aren't as bad as rabies!!!!! I had them. Sequence follows:
Day 0 - Big ol' whopping shot in butt of Gamma Globulin, plus first rabies shot in arm. Least side effects I ever had from any shot.
Day 3 - second rabies shot in arm.
Day 7 - third rabies shot in arm.
Day 14 - fourth rabies shot in arm.
Day 28 - fifth rabies shot in arm.
Good luck, whatever you do. Just remember, you get no second chance if you make a wrong decision.
Don
The case you mentioned about the lady waking up with a dead bat in the room is a different circumstance. Yes, you should get the series of shots if you awaken in a room with a bat in it (dead or alive), or the "exposed" person is too young or demented or otherwise incapacitated to reliably recall the events of an exposure. The case at hand here is different. The lack of abnormal behavior in a species of rabies reservoir (bats, fox, skunk, raccoons) should not give assurance that they were not infected. Domesticated or feral dogs and cats will almost always manifest abnormal behavior when infected. By the way, rodents and lagamorphs (rabbits and hares) have not been implicated as carriers, and their bites do not need rabies treatment.
As to whether a bat can bite while flying : remember that they catch insects on the fly and eat. I've been in Emergency Medicine for 25 years, and I wouldn't take the shots under those circumstances
Having been there, I'd take the shots, with absolutely no hesitation. He doesn't know if he was bitten. The child in the room didn't know. Absolutely no difference. Do you know if he was bitten? No, you don't, either. As I read the story, the Dr. that examined him could not say for sure one way or the other. The kid in WA was closely examined, with no evidence of a bite found. Yet, died of rabies of the same type found in the bat when exhumed from the backyard after the child died. In the panic of having a flock of bats fly into his face, the victim hasn't the foggiest idea what happened. But he comes down the ladder w/a mark he doesn't remember having when he went up. As I recall, bats don't necessarily show symptoms of rabies till quite sick, and by then they have been infective for weeks or months.
You didn't mention opossums as relatively safe, also.
DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
Welcome to the club. See you on the next full moon.
As with any medicaal advice, When in doubt, get a second opinion.
How many days can you wait before you get your first shot?
The average time from receiving a bite to the onset of symptoms is given as three to eight weeks, but can be several years. This is because the virus of Rabies travels along nerves, and not by way of the blood stream, so it would take much longer to develope disease from a bite on the hand or foot than it would for a bite on the face or head. A second reason for the variation is the number of virus particles received during the bite - obviously, the higher the "infective dose", the sooner things happen. Bats, by the way, if rabid, tend to have a very large number of viruses in their saliva.
To answer your question, WHO, NIH, and Health Canada all recommend that anti-rabies treatment be started as soon as possible after exposure, and the World Health Organization states that it is still worth doing as much as thirty days after exposure.
One post suggested getting a second opinion: excellent idea - and maybe contact your local or state Department of Public Health - They should be able to tell what the level of risk is for your location. or for the type of bat you encountered.
If the bats are still there, it would be worthwhile to "collect" them and submit them for rabies testing - the DPH will tell you how to do this.
The CDC website another poster suggested has a lot of good information and links, if you can get past the medical jargon in some of them. That may be where I found the info that, since 1980, over 30 people in the USA have died of rabies, most of which were typed as being of bat origin, and most of these had no history, indication, knowledge or sign of ever being bitten or even being in contact with a bat.
Any other questions, I'll try to answer them all.
Regards
Doc
30 people get rabies in 22 years. (1980 to 2002)Population about 140 million (An offhand but conservative estimate.)1 per 102,666,666.7
I have been around hundreds of bats. I have handled a few, 3 or 4. Cute little critters. They look like winged mice and are about as big as a thumb. If it makes you feel better to get rabies shots, which are not without risk themselves (Ask about the risks.), do so.
It happens but lets keep things in perspective. I would probably follow your doctors advice and worry more about slipping in the shower.
Where are you ? What country has a population of 140 million ? .
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
US. Sorry miffed the number, long day. I should have put in 240 million. Not really a bad bit of demographics as my first guess is close to 174 million working age adults (18-64 in 2001). Actual population as of 2001 according to Ameristat was 281 million.
Or 1 per 206,066,667. Even better odds than my first calculation. A fraction of the number of people struck by lightning, dead from bee stings or any number of relatively rare ends.
Another anecdote -- About two years ago, a fellow from my home town, White Township, NJ, died of rabies. He didn't remember being bitten, but he had scared up some bats while cleaning out an attic. Now, I'm no fearmonger, I fully support my local bat population and I realize the odds of contracting rabies from a bat are tiny. But the penalties for being wrong here are severe. I'd get the shots.
Andy Engel, The Accidental Moderator
Next Question, Why do my dogs get rabies shots but I don't?Excellence is its own reward!
Because they don't want your dogs to get rabies from you after you scare up some bats in a roofing job. Quittin' Time
you can get them, only cost about $500, if memory serves.bobl Volo Non Voleo Joe's cheat sheet
Only 23$ for the dog, must be I take a biger dose!
;)Excellence is its own reward!
Why not rabies vaccinations for people? Good question. Try this for an answer.
Rabies is not a human disease, in that the reservoir for it is in wild animals. People can catch it, but are not the reservoir for it. Unlike smallpox, which is a people disease - only people can catch it, and the reservoir for the disease is people. Rabies is also a disease that you know when you are exposed to it - unlike measles, for which you really don't recognize an exposure - or the flu. It also cannot be transmitted person to person without exposure to the saliva or brain tissue of an infected person - again, an easily recognized event. So how do people get exposed? Through domesticated pets, usually. So, you vaccinate the pets - read that cats and dogs, and you can protect people from the most likely route of transmission from the wild animal reservoir. There always have been vaccines for people, but the risk of adverse reaction was too great to use them on the general population, and it was safer for the general population to only treat those exposed to the disease. Not very comfortable for the victim, but better for the general population. Vets, animal control folks and researchers were usually vaccinated, because they had a high risk of contact w/ infected animals. When you get exposed, you get a vaccination rather than a cure. That's why it is so critical to get treatment ASAP. There is a race - the vaccine against the infection. That's also why treatment includes a bicycle pump full of gamma globulin in the butt - it has the necessary antibodies to temporarily hold the infection at bay till your body can react to the vaccine. That's also why the GG goes into the butt and the vaccine into the arm - to get them as far apart as possible so each has a chance to start its job system-wide before duking it out w/ the other.
As far as the general population goes, the number of adverse reactions may be small, say 100 for a population of 240 milllion. But, the probability that you will react is not 100/240million. That is because we all are not equal as far as risk is concerned. We are unique individuals, and some of us have a near 1 probability of adverse reaction because of genetic makeup, f'rinstance, or a bad health problem. Unfortunately, humans are so complex, you cannot tell who those people are going to be; so you don't vaccinate everyone - it's just not worth the risk for a disease that you know when you are exposed to it.
As to why the dog shot is only $23, and the people series is about $1200. They make dog shots by the millions of doses, and people shots in much smaller qtys. Also, I'll bet that the QA requirements and safety requirements for the people variety are a lot more stringent. I suspect that the methods of manufacture are dramatically different, also.
How's that for a try?
DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
Okay here is a bat question...hubby has been around 100 bats+. This was two different days when working on a house. They didn't bite, hit etc. him. What I am wondering he came home with a DEAD bat on his van grill. Eleven year old touches the bat picks it up and says "look mom". The dead bat is still outside near our garage. Should I have this thing tested?????? You guys are freaking me out here. I told her to put it down as soon as she picked it up. I just wish a bat expert would tell us when to be concerned.Tamara
Yes, you should have the bat tested. Your 11 year old handled it and could potentially catch rabies from it. I'm told that while rabies is passed through saliva and the best way to get it is through a bite, you can also get it from handling infected animals. All it takes is a hangnail for the virus to enter the system. A couple of years ago when a bear at a petting zoo died of the disease, they were trying to vaccinate EVERYONE who had come in contact with it - the bear had not bitten anybody, but the risk was there.
Don't freak out. Just call animal control immediately and explain the circumstances.
Talked to my daugter today (3rd year vet student) asked her about this thread.
her suggestion. get the shots, find a docter who will autherize so insurance will pay. the shots are expensivebobl Volo Non Voleo Joe's cheat sheet
For crying out loud - FREAK out and get that bat tested. Any vet can tell you how to do it. Bats just don't fly into grills on trucks unless their navigation radar is screwed up. Rabies screws up their radar. That bat could have its brain damaged and exposed, possibly infecting your child. Its saliva can be splattered all over its fur, again infecting your child. You have time - but no one can tell you how much. They just flat don't know.
Bats may be cute, but they can be very hazardous in this way.
DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
Doc and Don have good info in their posts. An additional tidbit: someone pointed out that most human rabies exposures have been genotyped as being bat rabies. True. The new info is that often domestic cats are the vector. Bat rabies (versus skunk, etc) but the cat killed the bat then the human presumably got an unnoticed cat scratch. Whether the exposure is from a bat directly or from a domestic animal vector, most victims did not have detectable wounds.
Other true bits in other posts: Incidence in most bat populations is low (a percent or less), although some particular caves are know to house rabid populations. But if you come down with symptoms, it is almost always too late for treatment. There have been one or two saves after symptoms, versus hundreds of deaths (worldwide) after onset of symptoms.
Experienced caver, regular reader of New England Journal, Annual of Int Med, Nature, Science News, etc.
David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
David: I've heard that the 1 or 2 saves left the victims in very bad shape. Extremely high fever. brain swelling, all sorts of messy things w/i the skull. Apparently they used hyperbaric oxygen as treatment, but still left the victims a mess. Had a friend w/ a bullet wound in the mouth in VN. Came home for treatment that included hyperbaric oxygen for a messy bacterial infection he got from very dirty conditions in the field. That worked very well.
DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
Glad to see you back David, Suffering from too much of long daylight hours yet?Excellence is its own reward!
Hi Piffin. Yep. Too many fish to catch, hikes to take, etc. But mostly, once again, I'm trying to get a building done on a pregnant wife's schedule. Not recommended.
David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
In fact most people who work in animal services vets ,techs ,handlers at clinics and zoos receive innoculations for rabies .It was required for myson before he stsrted vet school ,only 3 shots not the full series
aThe cost about 125 each and weren't covered by ins.
He now gets a blood test every 3 years to check on the level of protection .
However if he were to be bitten or treated a rabid animal with bare hands the accepted protocal is all the shots.
Bhack- was curious as to the final decision and outcome. Can you share?
Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
No, he can't reply. He left a glass of water by the computer and now he's afraid to go near it.
David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska