Reading Cauldwell’s Plumbing book and he lost me.
My understanding was you need at least one GFI by the Sink on it’s
own circuit. Seams like he’s saying you can share it with most anything in the room.
“As long as the Receptacle doesn’t tie in to any other bath, code now allows you to load it up with anything and everything in that Bathroom”.
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Replies
The GFCI should not need to be on it's own circuit. A bath load is not very great.
Well it wasn't the load.
I thought code required it for some safety reason. You can be sure I don't want to pull another wire for nothing.
....a bath load is not very great.......
until they turn on the heater and the hair dryer at the same time.
On bath remodels, I like to have two 20A lines into the bath. One for the required outlet and a second for a heat / vent / light unit (either initial install or future).
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Edited 5/10/2008 6:10 pm ET by JTC1
Not an electrician but I think code says that bathrooms need a dedicated circuit or bath-only circuit that serves multiple baths (aka all baths on 1 circuit with GFCIs somewhere to protect all outlets in the baths). Lights on the same dedicated circ but not GFCI-ed. I don't like the idea of all baths on 1 circuit when I think about multiple hairdryers running simultaneously.
a real electrician will be along shortly.
Just had a discussion with our city electrical inspector the other day and a reading from the NEC.
Seems you can have any number of bathroom outlets on a single 20A circuit and if your laundry (washer) is in the same room the washer outlet can be the GFCI and the bath proper can be downstream.
But if you have a laundry room next to the bathroom, as I did, and the electricians put the GFCI in the laundry room and protect the bathroom from there, it is not allowed.
What about the lights and vent fan?
The GFCI protection can be anyplace. Even in the garage or crawlspace. But not receptacles.The code says that a bathroom needs a 20 amp circuit(s) for receptacles.That circuit can feed anything in ONE bathroom receptacles, lights, fan and possible a small heater. Many heaters would require their own circuit.The other option is to only feed the receptacles with the bathroom circuit, but it feed receptacles in multiple bathroom.Without looking the specific spacing you need at least one receptacle by each sink. You can have multiples.ALL receptacles in the bathroom need to be GFCI protected. The code does not specify another other devices that need GFCI protection. But it does require installations to follow manufactures requirments. And some vent fans when installed over a shower or tub require GFCI protection.Also whirlpool tubs require GFCI protection and usually a dedicated circuit. A dead face GFCI is often used for those. I think the same for electric heated floors, but never checked the details on it.About the washing machine."210.11 Branch Circuits Required
Branch circuits for lighting and for appliances, including motor-operated appliances, shall
be provided to supply the loads calculated in accordance with 220.10. In addition, branch
circuits shall be provided for specific loads not covered by 220.10 where required
elsewhere in this Code and for dwelling unit loads as specified in 210.11(C).
...
(C) Dwelling Units
...
(2) Laundry Branch Circuits In addition to the number of branch circuits required by
other parts of this section, at least one additional 20-ampere branch circuit shall be
provided to supply the laundry receptacle outlet(s) required by 210.52(F). This circuit
shall have no other outlets.
...""210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets
...
(F) Laundry Areas In dwelling units, at least one receptacle outlet shall be installed for
the laundry.
..."A separate circuit and at least one receptale is needed for the laundry area and even if installed in the bathroom it can't be attached to the bathroom circuit.However, if it is in the bathroom then it needs to be GFCI protected. If not in a bathroom (or garage or unfinished basement) then it does not need to be GFCI protected unless it is within 6ft of a sink.BTW, in the "OLD" days (I am guessing be 96, but not sure) the bathroom did not need a dedicated circuit. And GFCI's where relatively more expensive. So it was not uncommon to find something like this. Panel in garage feeds a GFCI for the garage receptacle, then downstream it feeds a couple of bathrooms and then an outiside receptacle..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Hey thanks for the thorough reply.
I saved it for future reference. This is for my house and is pretty basic.
Two vanity outlets (double sinks-two outlets)
Vanity lights
overhead fan/light
shower light So I'm thinking one circuit should do it. Thanks again Chuck
In another thread someone mentioned a NEC code summary book - or similar - no - not "code check" This one was specifically on the NEC and hopefully isn't of that "for dummies" series... Anyone know of the book?
I am not sure what you are talking about.I have mentioned the NEC handbook. But it is not a summary rather is the NEC code with a bunch of explanitory and background information added.And some one mentioned Rex Cauldwell's book on house wiring. It is a Taunton DIY wiring guide..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
How about this book? Any good? I have electricians do my work so a book on how to wire a house is not really what I need, however it is advantageous for me to know the codes to help avoid mistakes and delays.
You are stretching it to say any number of outlets, There is a Max allowed on any circuit I would have to look it up to be sure but I think it is 14 outlets per circuit max. And a there are also any number of appliances that could be installed in a bath or laundry that could require or at least recommend a dedicated circuit. Also I am not a fan of feeding lights and outlets on one circuit. Yes it is allowed but that does not make it a good electrical job. And anyone that says a bathroom does not have a large load does not have teen aged daughters. 2 curling irons one flat iron 2 hair driers 2 vanity mirrors with 4 60 watt bulbs each, a radio and electric tooth brush charger a razor charger a cell phone charger. Add all that to the over head light/fan and the whirlpool tub with heater. I would not want all that on a single circuit.
The NEC has no limitations on the number of receptacles on a circuit in residential applications. However, some local amendments do limit them.And the breaker is the only limit on the number of portable appliacnes that can be used on a circuit.Bbut for fixed in place appliances cord connected appliacne if it draws more than 50% of the circuit capacity it needs a dedicated circuit. Not sure of the wording on hardware fixed appliances..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Code referring to baths, If there is one bath in the house, the whole bathroom can by on one 20amp circuit.
If there are multiple baths, the recepticles from the multiple baths can be on the same 20amp circuit (GFCI protected), but nothing else.
Doesnt matter what the load may be, code wants that recp isolated.
Also if you are hanging a light or fan above the shower/tub it also must be GFCI protected.
Edited 5/11/2008 9:07 am ET by MSA1
>> Also if you are hanging a light or fan above the shower/tub it also must be GFCI protected. << Is there a certain distance that a light (for example) needs to be away from a bathtub so that it does not need to be GFCI protected?
"404.4 Wet Locations
A switch or circuit breaker in a wet location or outside of a building shall be enclosed in a
weatherproof enclosure or cabinet that shall comply with 312.2(A). Switches shall not be
installed within wet locations in tub or shower spaces unless installed as part of a listed
tub or shower assembly.""406.8
...
(C) Bathtub and Shower Space Receptacles shall not be installed within or directly over
a bathtub or shower stall.""410.4 Luminaires (Fixtures) in Specific Locations
(A) Wet and Damp Locations Luminaires (fixtures) installed in wet or damp locations
shall be installed so that water cannot enter or accumulate in wiring compartments,
lampholders, or other electrical parts. All luminaires (fixtures) installed in wet locations
shall be marked, ``Suitable for Wet Locations.'' All luminaires (fixtures) installed in
damp locations shall be marked, ``Suitable for Wet Locations'' or ``Suitable for Damp
Locations.''
...
(D) Bathtub and Shower Areas No parts of cord-connected luminaires (fixtures), chain-
, cable-, or cord-suspended-luminaires (fixtures), lighting track, pendants, or ceilingsuspended
(paddle) fans shall be located within a zone measured 900 mm (3 ft)
horizontally and 2.5 m (8 ft) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower stall
threshold. This zone is all encompassing and includes the zone directly over the tub or
shower stall. Luminaires (lighting fixtures) located in this zone shall be listed for damp
locations, or listed for wet locations where subject to shower spray."And from the handbook discussion."A revision of 410.4(D) clarifies that securely fastened luminaires installed in or on the
ceiling or wall are permitted to be located in the bathtub or shower area. Where they
are subject to shower spray, the luminaires must be listed for a wet location.
Luminaires installed in the tub or shower zone and not subject to shower spray are
required to be listed for use in a damp location. GFCI protection is required only where
specified in the installation instructions for the luminaire.
The intent of 410.4(D) is to keep cord-connected, chain-hanging, or pendant luminaires
and suspended fans out of the reach of an individual standing on a bathtub rim. The list
of prohibited items recognizes that the same risk of electric shock is present for each
one.
Exhibit 410.1 illustrates the restricted zone in which the specified luminaires, lighting
track, and paddle fans are prohibited. This requirement applies to hydromassage
bathtubs, as defined in 680.2, as well as other bathtub types and shower areas. See
680.43 for installation requirements for spas and hot tubs (as defined in 680.2) installed
indoors."Fans would only be controlled by the manufactures installation requirments..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Thanks Bill. The text was a little confusing, but the picture made it pretty clear.
Thanks Bill.
If you are only powering the receptacles in the bath, one GFI and one 20 Amp circuit can cover all the bathrooms.
If you are also supplying the light, fan, etc., with that same circuit, every bath needs its' own 20 Amp circuit.
Bathrooms are graced with such power for one reason: hair dryers. It might be for only 10 minutes a day, but that circuit is very heavily loaded.
Call it a difference between the sexes. Men might have a shaver, even an electric toothbrush. Women, on the other hand, have that hair dryer, curling iron, illuminated make-up mirror, and heaven knows what else.
First off thanks for all the info from everyone.
My plan is to run a single circuit for the one bath (20 amp). Gfi at
the panel.
Two gfi outlets for vanity ( I know redundant but it looks official)
and then one fan/light, two vanity lights, and one shower light.
Any future baths will be on their own circuit. I think that covers it right?