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Bathroom tub-shower failure (leaking)

Nuke | Posted in General Discussion on June 7, 2005 06:43am

I’m in a 4.5 year old cookie cutter home that has an extra bath compared to the original floorplan. This extra bath was paid for by someone that originally had the house under contract and the deal went south. We benefited from this, but that benefit ended today.

Two years ago the wife and I learned the hard way about our ignorance for sealing grout. No one told us about this, not even our buyer’s agent who had been in the biz for +20 years. Not even the builder, builder’s agent, etc., bothered to tell us. So, we learned the hard way after the grout developed a nasty condition in the master bathroom’s standalone shower.

After this discovery, we started using the ‘extra’ bath, but this changed today as something has failed, resulting in a water leak downstairs. Luckily, the joist cavity where [smore of] the water landed was with a canned light that allowed water to escape. Now I have to bathrooms to fix.

One of the things I noticed yesterday, and the wife this morning, was that the shower-tub in this ‘extra’ bath seemed to shift on whatever foundation it was installed upon, which appears now to have also compromised the seal where the tub-portion of the shower-tub meets the 4″ white tile wall surround. The tub is an American Standard enamled cast type.

We do not know if the failure that is affording the water leak is coming from the tile wall & tub interface/seam, whether the shifting compromised any seal around the tub’s drain, or somewhere else. We are certainly open to suggestions.

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  1. JTC1 | Jun 07, 2005 07:54pm | #1

    Nuke,

    Step one is to find out where the water is coming from. 

    You have 3 places to look ( per bathroom ):

    1) supply piping ( doubtful as water would continue to leak even with the bathroom unused - unless it is the shower riser)

    2) drain pipiping ( a possible since the leak stops if bathroom is not used )

    3) tile wall / tub interface ( a possible ).

    Hopefully you will be able to see the tub supply and drain by looking at the piping through the access panel ( probably in a closet at the head of the tub )

    No full time water -- clears the supply piping up to the tub valve.

    Drain fitting can be checked by turning on the water and watching the drain at the tub. 

    Intermittant (sp?) leak? Try filling the tub up until the water is draining through the overflow - notorious leakers.  Families with young children "develop" this problem frequently when the kids get old enough to take baths by themselves.

    If still no water, divert the water from the shower head so it does not hit the walls or top of tub (plastic bag from the drycleaners and some tape will make a servicable "pipe"); turn on the shower and watch for water dripping in the cavity with the valves in it - yes? shower riser piping or joint is the culprit.

    If you have not seen any water after all of the above then you have a tile or tub sealing problem. Unless there is a leak farther down the drain piping lines.

    Good luck, let us know what you find, lots of good advice available at Breaktime once the problem is narrowed a bit.

    Jim

    Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.

    1. User avater
      Nuke | Jun 07, 2005 08:14pm | #2

      Hey Jim, thanks for the quick reply. No access panel for anything in this bathroom. The leaking water appeared after my wife finished showering and got dressed. This delay give me the idea that it is not supply-side. I could test the drain by running water spout (not shower head) on plugged drain. If it leaks, bingo. If it doesn't leak I can shutoff and drain and wait for leak again (intra-drain leak).

      If nothing results, I could plug drain again and run shower this time to test the tub-wall interface. Of course, I could just grab a pitcher of water and pour it into the interface. This is going to have to wait until morning.

      1. calvin | Jun 08, 2005 01:27am | #3

        Something simple that often leaks but is hard to find is behind the trim ring on the faucet handle or the tub spout.  Often only appears after a shower, not during a bath.  Remove the faucet trim and spout if you can w/o boogering it up.  Apply a caulk bead damn, up and over both holes through the tile or acrylic surround, leave the bottom open for any water that makes it through to drain.  Replace the spout and trim, run a nice looking sealant (doesn't need to be big) over the tops and sides of both, again leaving the bottom open. 

        Sometimes worth trying first, it won't hurt if you do it and is relatively simple.  I require this of all my new plumbing installs, an ounce of prevention blah blah blah.

        Best of luck in the hunt.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.

        Quittin' Time

  2. DanH | Jun 08, 2005 01:39am | #4

    If there's a visible crack between tub and tile in the bath then showers that will almost certainly result in leakage below. You can try carefully duck-taping the joint to see if that fixes it.

    Also, fill the tub about half full with water and then let it drain. If there's a drain failure it should show up in one of those two operations.

    If the tub doesn't noticeably shift as you get in/out of it, it's likely that the gaps that developed are "normal" settling. If the gaps are no wider than about 1/4" then a careful caulk job will probably be all that's needed.

    1. User avater
      Nuke | Jun 08, 2005 05:17pm | #5

      Ok, the tub is about half full of water. No signs of water level dropping. BTW, what resisted my initiative to resealing such seams is the ineffective means of removing the old gunk. After a couple of months this sealant turns gray-ish. Only today did I find an effective method for removing it while not scratching the tile or the tub's enamel. Sounds like its time for some elbow grease.

      And, in another ten minutes I'll drain what is in the tub and see if that produces any leaks. I picked up some elastomer-style bathroom and kitchen sealant (in a tube) and the applicator gun. Maybe I could do the neighbors ...

      1. User avater
        BillHartmann | Jun 08, 2005 06:08pm | #7

        The make caulk "solvents" and "removers".I don't know how well they work, but the last time I need to do that Lowes did not have any, but I got some GoofOff.Seems to work well on old acrylic caulk.And on silicon it does not "desolve" it, but it breaks it down and causes it swell up and become mushing. Still needs fair amount of work, but will get down every last trace of it.

      2. DanH | Jun 08, 2005 07:28pm | #9

        There are a couple of "caulk removers" on the market, one by 3M and one by, I think, DAP. They sort of work -- soften the caulk slightly so it can be more easily scraped. But scraping is definitely required.To remove the old caulk, get yourself a razor scraper and an assortment of other tools that look like they might work. The ideal thing would be a piece of thin steel about 3/8" wide and 6-8" long (including a handle) with a hook ground into the end, so you could get behind the caulk. But the closest thing I've ever seen to this was made of plastic.Dig out ALL the old caulk. Use the razor scraper on the tub and tile edge to remove the last remnants. (The razor scraper will not scratch ceramic tile or a ceramic-coated tub if you use reasonable care. Fiberglass or acrylic will be more of a problem.) Then wash the area with clean water, and wash again with rubbing alcohol. The surfaces should be COMPLETELY clean before caulking.I still favor a good name-brand silicone bathtub caulk (GE, DAP, Red Devil) for tubs. There may be better stuff out now, but a good silicone job will last 5-10 years, so I'm not inclined to gamble. (Plus I haven't had to redo a tub for at least 5 years, so I've had no opportunity to try anything new.)If the stuff stuff on there turned grey after a few months then it almost certainly was not regular bathtub caulk. It may have been paintable silicone, or some sort of non-silicone caulk.

      3. JTC1 | Jun 08, 2005 07:40pm | #10

        Nuke,

        When you apply the new caulk to the gap at the tub:

        I fill the tub about 1/2 full of water and then stand in it while caulking, this causes the tub to "settle" as it would when in use.

        Leave the water in the tub while the caulk cures.

        When you drain the water out the caulk will compress somewhat.

        Caulk compresses better than it stretches -- regardless of what the tube claims.

        Jim

        Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light. 

  3. Dave45 | Jun 08, 2005 05:31pm | #6

    A major potential culprit in any bathtub and/or shower leak is the corners where the tub or shower pan meet the floor.  If the doors or shower curtain aren't used correctly, water splashes into the corners and will eventually work its way under the flooring.  I've had several major bathroom remodels start with the HO saying "The flooring has come loose in the corner(s).  Can you glue it back down?"  - lol

  4. BillW | Jun 08, 2005 06:23pm | #8

    Check the mixing valve - remove the chrome cover plate and see if it is wet on or around the valve body.  These are notoriously unreliable - I've repaired two Simmons recently - a royal pain the the $%^ btw. 

    1. Shacko | Jun 08, 2005 11:37pm | #11

      Been there, done that.  Simmons sucks!  The problem is they are usually specified. Their factory support does not exist!  You are stuck with repairing a product that they don't care about!  I wish you luck.

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