I have a client that is building a new house. In the meantime, they have a large 2 story, non attached garage that has a second floor that I’m remodeling to make it an ADU for two years until the new house is built. There will be a new bath and kitchen on the second floor. On the first floor, the two car garage, the owner wants to put in just a toilet over in a corner without any walls, sink, doors, or any privacy at all amongst stacks of boxes, cars and stuff. The intent is it would be used for the kids to use while they are playing outside and not have to go up stairs and track in dirt/stuff during the new house construction. The architect drew the drawings with walls to enclose the toilet and make it a small bathroom with fart fan and sink and the works to make it to code and still keep it a really small footprint. The owner is insisting on not having walls. I called the city and talked to a plans examiner and she said “no, all toilets have to be enclosed for privacy” and gave me the code # and so I looked it up and it clearly says you have to provide walls and privacy for every toilet. I sent it to the HO and he’s insisting on fighting city hall on this. What are your thoughts? How do I bid this?
BjR
Replies
This guy sounds like he is going to be a treat to work for....
Does the code give any maximum size that the bathroom can be?
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
or what is in it...
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WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Better to have no walls around a garage toilet then to have floor to ceiling windows in a bathroom facing the neighbors.
What about a urinal, seriously? This could just have a side partition
Possibly since it would be inside of a garage, it may be considered to be private. You might ask him to get a ruling on that.
Build a wall all the way across the garage behind the main doors. Place a interior door in this wall for access to the bathroom of 22' x 17' (your sizes). Unless the code says bathroom must be no bigger than x by y.
Second thought: Direct door to the outside like you would find at a gas station with the walls to the bathroom closing off the rest of the garage.
bid it to build with walls that are removeable. Then he can take them out when the final inspection goes through and it is none of your concern
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The intent is it would be used for the kids to use while they are playing outside and not have to go up stairs and track in dirt/stuff during the new house construction.
That right there says a lot about this guy what a piece of garbage he is. What happens when little Susie or little Bobby from down the street goes to the bathroom and someone walks in by mistake and sees them and their private parts?
Why on earth would this guy not want walls? It makes absolutely no sense at all. If you stuck the toilet in the corner,it's only two walls. If you stuck in the middle, it's only three walls. Makes no sense.
Who on this forum would want their kids going to the bathroom in someone's house or garage with no walls and privacy???????
What is his reason for not having walls??
Excellent point.
Though maybe HO intends to hang a shower curtain for privacy, for under $10, hardware included.I'm more concerned about no sink. anyone goes number 2, and that's a way to spread hepatitus and various other nasty germs.
Edited 11/21/2007 5:19 pm ET by msm-s
"I'm more concerned about no sink. anyone goes number 2, and that's a way to spread hepatitus and various other nasty germs."I agree. I think the lack of a sink is a bigger problem than a lack of walls.But I wouldn't do either one. If that's what a customer wanted, I would say that they can get someone a whole lot cheaper than I to do that kind of work.
Rich Beckman
Guy sounds like a wacko.
He wants to fight city hall on this, what's down the road to fight about?
Are you the referee or his tag team partner?
How many billable hours are you willing to lose to nonsense like this?
Joe H
Is your client perhaps a congressman? Larry Craig??
Maybe hes used to the city jails holding cell.
That would explain a lot.
You have an excellent point too!
Hmm. I'm only familiar with renovations, and not new construction, but my first impulse would be to give the guy a roughed-in closet flange.
After the house is complete, had him a complimentary wax ring and wish him luck.
Edit: Oh, it's not actually in the new house. Well, you get the idea.
Edited 11/22/2007 1:14 am ET by Biff_Loman
"The intent is it would be used for the kids to use while they are playing outside and not have to go up stairs and track in dirt/stuff during the new house construction."
Why not rent a porta pot?
Why not suggest that he get a camp toilet and tell the kids that it's for pee only. Those things are easy for a child to operate and will hold a lot. No permit needed of course.
you can tell them it's only for pee, but when kids get the urge to go, they don't always guess the "outcome" correctly.
you can tell them it's only for pee, but when kids get the urge to go, they don't always guess the "outcome" correctly.
Depends on the age of the kids, I'd guess but it makes little difference in the disposal of the "outcome". I was just trying to answer those who're concerned about hand washing after defecating.
A flushing camp toilet is pretty sanitary in any case because it has a small nozzle positioned so that the water flushes the entire bowl, like a regular toilet...just a lot less water.
my thought is to let him fight city hall if he wants.
just don't waste your time working on the solution.
tell him you will price whatever the code officials approve.
next question ?
carpenter in transition
Well it is in the walled in garage isnt it? What about some partition walls similiar to stalls in a public restroom?
You bid it from the archy's plans. If the HO wants to eliminate the walls, let him get the archy to revise the planset. If the archy does it (which I doubt), the revised planset will probably get shot down by the plan checkers. If, by some miracle, the revision gets approved, you build it and let the inspector argue with the plan checkers.
The idea is that you step out of the line of fire and let the HO walk point in the fight with the archy and city hall.
Remember Dave's Law of Non-Uniform Distribution. "When the @#$% hits the fan, it doesn't get spread evenly". - lol
Several years ago I researched the 2000 IRC to figure out if a bathroom door was required, I found nothing concerning privacy with walls or doors. The house I was involved with was pretty upscale and had lots of walls negating the need for a door. It got built and as far as I know everyones happy.
But whats the deal about no sink. That might be a code violation, either building or plumbing code. It's for sure unsanitary
I agree with your homeowner. People have different privacy needs. What compelling interest does our government have in dictating what those needs are? We are not talking about an open air privy in the front yard here.
On the other hand, as a contractor you don't need to be involved in any pointless fights with city hall. The removable walls suggestion is probably the cheapest and easiest solution. I would also lobby hard for the sink.
Here is my thinking in suggesting the removeabe walls - not to save money, but since that is probably the HOs goal I would be explaining that since city hall requires it, I have to incclude doing it in my boid, but will be happy to do it as a removeable so he can do that later, if he so chooses. That way, I am offering to omply with what he asks for, in a legal way, without calling him a weirdo or a cheap SOB. It is a tactful way of manipulating him into seeing reason. Most any cheap SOB will not take them away later, but trealize tht once he has them there, he might as well leave them.
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If his goal is to save money, it is doubtful that he would hire either one of us.
If he just has an unusual request, it is not really much different than many odd requests we get. There are many things that we build that do not make sense to me, but as one of my old bosses used to say, "It's amazing what people would rather have than money."
ayah
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Curtains hung from ceiling? Just a thought, but if I were doing it I'd do it with proper partiion walls.
Scott.
Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
i was invited to a party once while visiting nova scotia and the owner was showing me around the house and low and behold we went to the second floor and there at the top of the stairs was the framed full bath
all the fixtures were in place but there was nothing covering the walls
to give him credit he had thought of privacy and had hung a blanket in the doorway
the other odd thing was all the fixtures were fire engine red , seems he got a deal on them
some time later i heard his wife then he commited suicide and i wasent surprised
Just start thinking backwards.....
He needs to convince city hall that it is a 24 x 24 (or whatever dimension) bathroom where he can park his car rather than a garage with a bathroom.
There you go. Like when I was a planner for building a HUD highrise with balconies and HUD decided that balconies and a patio off the common room were unwarranted luxuries and wouldn't allow them. I told them the balconies were so the people could escape in a fire and integral to this was the patio where the firetruck would park to run its ladder up to the balconies! They allowed both, with the stipulation that I had to have paths for the firetrucks to the patio. So we made paths of Belgium block and everything was cool.
Since the guy seems to have far more money than sense ....
Get one of those pricey vandal-proof jail toilets, the steel ones with the sink built into the top of the tank. As others have suggested, this might be what he's accustomed to!
I'd read the code carefully .... are 'walls' required, or will a partition suffice? There's no reason a decent partition can't be made, perhaps using some of the more decorative fluorescent light covers. I'd figure a 6' partition ought to be enough for privacy. You might even have it open at the bottom, for 'hose down' duty.
A man has a right to be eccentric, obnoxious, or quarrelsome. You have the right to charge him for it. It is simply amazing how much aggravation an extra $50 will cover!
Edited 11/25/2007 1:24 pm ET by renosteinke
you handle aggravation cheap!;)
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I'm aggravated he would only charge 50 bucks...
Adieu.
Here's a link to the actual code, especially #2. The HO is interpreting that the code is referring to multi residency or apartment/condos. I don't read it that way at all but he's a lawyer and somehow he reads it diferently.
16.25.245Plumbing facilities and fixture requirements.
The provisions of this chapter shall govern the minimum plumbing systems, facilities and plumbing fixtures to be provided. The owner of the structure shall provide and maintain such plumbing facilities and plumbing fixtures in compliance with these requirements. A person shall not occupy as owner-occupant or permit another person to occupy any structure or premises which does not comply with the requirements of this chapter or the provisions of SMC Titles 16 and 17.
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(1)Number and Type of Fixtures. Plumbing fixtures shall be provided as required in the SMC Titles 16 and 17.
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(2)Privacy. Toilet rooms and bathrooms shall provide privacy and shall not constitute the only passageway to a hall or other space, or to the exterior. A door and interior locking device shall be provided for all common or shared bathrooms and toilet rooms in a multiple dwelling.
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(3)Location. Toilet rooms and bathrooms serving hotel units, rooming units or dormitory units or housekeeping units shall have access by traversing not more than one flight of stairs and shall have access from a common hall or passageway.
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(4)Location of Employee Toilet Facilities. Toilet facilities shall have access from within the employees’ working area. The required toilet facilities shall be located not more than one story above or below the employees’ working area and the path of travel to such facilities shall not exceed a distance of 500 feet (152 m). Employee facilities shall either be separate facilities or combined employee and public facilities.
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Exception: Facilities that are required for employees in storage structures or kiosks, which are located in adjacent structures under the same ownership, lease or control, shall not exceed a travel distance of 500 feet (152 m) from the employees’ regular working area to the facilities.
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(5)Floor Surface. In other than dwelling units, every toilet room floor shall be maintained to be a smooth, hard, nonabsorbent surface to permit such floor to be easily kept in a clean and sanitary condition. (Ord. O2004-148 § 4)
Oh - well - he's a lawyer. That explains everything;)aggravation fee $500Kidding aside, maybe being a lawyer he can fight city hall and win. Let him do it. Meanwhile bid to the archies specs.
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"Privacy. Toilet rooms and bathrooms shall provide privacy and shall not constitute the only passageway to a hall or other space, or to the exterior. "Does the garage provide the only passage way to other space or the exterior?If not then the whole garage could be treated as a bathroom..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
The code requirements you printed about floors reminded me of a county golf course clubhouse building I was involved with. My boss wanted the toilet room floors to be that stuff that running tracks are made of--sort of like a cross between rubber and spongy asphalt. He also wanted paths from the doors to the toilet rooms out of that so golfers could wear their cleats (golf shoes) into the toilet rooms without ruining the carpet. I pointed out how hard that would be to keep clean, especially in the toilet rooms and he decided finally not to do it.
I stand by my original recommendation on bidding.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Your question was how to bid on the work? He asked you to bid it as he planned and that's what you should do. Why should you be concerned if it must be changed? Surely the added walls would add to the expense if later they were necessary. To be honest, I don't know anything about either subject, the construction or the code, but I don't have to because the answer is so obvious. Also, I'm not too hyper about the sink which frequently isn't used anyway and in the case of farm boys isn't available and they ain't dying off from all the strange diseases you come acrossed. Admittedly a sink would be nice and a worthy addition but who's paying for this? I would also think that ducking into an enclosed garage would be seeking and obtaining privacy.