Bathrooms widout windows, whaddayathink?
How important is it to you to have natural light in your bathroom? Most older homes have windows but do you even notice that feature anymore?
I’m presently working up a design for my next home, one which I’ll likely sell in a few years.
The master suite will have it’s own bath of course, and it will have a window with a view. The three other bedrooms will share two baths. All four bedrooms are on the same level.
In order to use the available space well and to keep the plumbing simple, back to back and directly over the HW heater, it’s necessary to place those two standard sized baths in the middle of the floor, on the hallway. The laundry room will also be on that hall.
Do you consider that kind of windowless arrangement acceptable in a new 2500sqft home? Is it a negative to consumers?
Replies
My guess is that it would be fine.
Daylighting is not only functional, but it saves electricity (for lighting) and reduces a sense of claustrophobia in small spaces. It's also important for natural ventilation in the warm months.
I would consider no window only in a small half-bath, and even then I would try to get a light tube into it.
Solar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Daylighting is not only functional, but it ___ reduces a sense of claustrophobia in small spaces.
I tend to agree with you, right up to the point where I think about how many bathrooms I've been in which have no natural lighting. It's not even something I notice, as long as the lighting is bright and the bathroom is well designed.
BTW, this house places the garage/kit/dining/living room on the top level, the bedrooms and home theater on the middle level and the recreation/shop space in the walk-out basement.
I don't think it's a huge problem. Do you get claustrophobic going into a bathroom at night?That said, if there is a way to get daylight in, I'd try to do it... it's certainly nice.That said, the last three houses I've worked on have had master baths without windows or any daylighting. Big houses, but they all had design constraints. The homeowners don't mind at all.That said, my own house has all the commodes next to a window at elbow level... I like a room with with a view<G> n'uff said? Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
"the last three houses I've worked on have had master baths without windows or any daylighting. Big houses, but they all had design constraints. The homeowners don't mind at all."
Glad to hear that the new HOs didn't object. Thanks.
I've tucked two new bathrooms into existing interior spaces in my 1830s home; one went into a large closet, and the other into a former maids quarters.
In both cases, I incorporated "windows" that bring light from adjacent windowed spaces. The windows are shallow in depth, and set high in the wall for privacy. Interestingly, the maids quarters was originally built with a four-light sash that "borrowed" light from the adjacent stair hall. I added a transom-style sash at the other end of the bathroom.
I've also seen skylights used to wonderful effect, brightly lighting interior bathrooms.
If there is some way to bring in natural light, then definitely do it.
Allen
You don't say what floor it would be on I am guessing 2nd? We have two Baths, Master has 4 windows one is 4x4 with arch top in addition there is a skylight. Second bath has a skylight only no windows with the skylight I often think, Oh someone left the light on, go to hit the switch realize the light is coming from the skylight. The bath is right off the hall so when I go for the switch it is because it is to the left of the door, don't even need to stop walking. The other thing is the skylight lines up to the bath door and is angled due to roof pitch that way, so in return it lights up the hall also. could use a solar tube too.
I don't think a window is needed though if you have kids put a motion light switch in so they are sure to turn the light off when done in the bath.
Wallyo
Edited 3/10/2008 4:53 pm ET by wallyo
As much as I hate it, in modern homes, it's done all the time.
Let me mention one thing though. I understand the concept of clustering baths for efficient plumbing and shorter runs from the HW tank. Thing is, with Pex now being used very often, the way things are plumbed, with a lot of home runs, some of those plumbing effiencey concerns are removed. Further, all the plumbing subs I have used within the last 5 years charge by the fixture unit. None of this - "well, it's kinda spread out so I'll have to charge you extra for that." Maybe it was necessary with copper... So one 3 bath house costs the same as another 3 bath house assuming the same level of fixtures, faucets, same foundation type, etc.
Also, as mentioned above, what about solar tubes?
Keep designing till you have it right.
Will it sell? I think so.
Would I do it? No.
As we go through construction hard times, one of the groups that will continue to have work is the group that actually applies what we know. The group that just goes for what sells has been having some difficulty.
People want energy-efficient homes that have lessons learned incorporated into the designs.
As I ponder the possibility of going back into building, I am encouraged to see that lowest-common-denominator homes are having birthdays in the multi-listings.
As I have watched the market in my area over several years, certain types of homes, both new and old, sell quickly. Generic homes are not doing so well. Many here have been on the market for several years.
I think it's pretty important. I did a recent thread where I redid three baths in a house, none of which had natural light - now they all do, and the client tells me she never really realized how depressing the old ones were - I had been pushing to do their bathrooms for years.
I try to at least get a skylight in. Here at home, we have one internal bath with a pyramidal ceiling and a skylight, and an internal powder room that gets light from a high stained glass window over the cabinets in the kitchenette.
Master bath has a 4x7 (actually a sliding glass door glass unit in an aluminum track thingy) over the shower.
Forrest - clients always like light after they have it
I once convinced a client to let me put a skylight in the roof of her old farmhouse, just over the second floor landing for the stairway. The bottom of the stairs was in the foyer. That 2X2 piece of glass changed the feel of the house, dramatically.
I go into a bathroom for short periods, usually for one minute or less but no more than ten minutes for a shower. Space is important to me but the light source, not so much.
The master bathroom in this home, the one dedicated to the woman's point of view, is grand and has all the amenities. There's room for a large bow window, next to the spa.
The kids' bathrooms are meant for taking care of business in a pleasant atmosphere, nothing more.
Honestly, I don't think that a small opaque window is going to do much that a pleasant lighting arrangement can't.
Edited 3/10/2008 10:06 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
"I go into a bathroom for short periods, usually for one minute or less but no more than ten minutes for a shower. Space is important to me but the light source, not so much. "
One thing you might want to consider is that we will soon be forced by WalMart, I mean our government, to have all flourescent lighting. This will make natural lighting even more desirable. Additionally, there is a time lag on flourescents and it will take your entire minute to actually get to full intensity on the light.
I frequently leave the light off during the day - I don't need it with the window keeping it bright in there.
Fresh air is still a beautiful thing!!!
Built a house in 05 with no master bath window. People loved the house, hated the bathroom. Built the same house in 06 and added a window. Totally changed the bathroom AND the B/R and everyone loved it.
Please notice that I said the master bath will have a window. It'll have a view and be next to a spa.
So if mom wants to give the kids their baths in the bubble tub, overlooking the surrounding forest, that's her choice.
The two other bathrooms are windowless because I'd rather not cram one bathroom between two bedrooms in a twenty-four foot space, not because I consider short plumbing runs to be all important.
On the other hand, I dislike having to duck in/out of a shower stall and wait thirty seconds for the hot water to arrive.
I put solar tubes in both baths; they went from dark & depressing (even though they had small windows) to bright enough to keep plants alive. People are always looking for the light switch to turn off.
I put solar tubes in both baths; they went from dark & depressing (even though they had small windows) to bright enough to keep plants alive.
I'm not against the idea but it would require putting a chase in the upstairs kitchen, in an undesireable location. The tubes would be about 14' long, on the NW side of the roof, and would be in shade, under big trees, for most of the day. The heat loss is a concern as well.
That's why I dismissed that idea earlier.
Bathrooms without windows? They stink!
Yep, given your situation I wouldn't be considering the tubes either. Must have missed that part about first floor, etc. FYI, ours face north but without large overhanging trees.
It sounds like this would not work on your layout, but just want to throw out another idea. I have done some work on houses with back to back baths where the first has a window the second none but they put in a 2'x3 or so glass panel between the two to get light from the window in the first to the second. place it about 5.5-6' off the floor. I took out the glass on one of these and put in glass block.Wallyo
Edited 3/11/2008 1:18 am ET by wallyo
Stick to your guns, man! I'm remodeling a bathroom in my parent's house right now: NONE of the baths in this house have windows, or skylights, or solar tubes or whatever. It's not that bad.
One of the baths, in the basement, once had a window but it was eliminated back in the '90s with an addition on that side of the house.
The powder room isn't on an exterior wall. So much for that idea.
The en suite is buried as well. It could have had a window, but an attached garage added to that side of the house nixed that idea.
I would try to avoid this situation, but for a powder room or secondary bath or whatever: I definitely think windows are optional. Damn, I never even noticed until reading this thread.
Exactly! There is a big difference between who is going to use the bathroom. I have two teenage daughters and they could care less if there is a window in the bathroom. Just give them a large mirror with good lighting so they can do whatever they do in there.
The same idea goes for mom as she is looking at the house. She is counting the bathrooms and the fixtures so there is enough to go around and there is less bickering between siblings. Unless the bathroom is a dungeon I don't think she cares all that much.
I think the solar tube and some good lighting will be fine for the kids/guest bathroom.
Few rules I like to follow,
1) No north facing driveways
2) No Decks on the west side
3) No bathrooms without windows
4) No 2-0 doors unless it's a closet.
But sometimes you got to break the rules!
1) The driveway goes between the house/garage and the road.
2) The deck is most often placed on the back of the house, away from the road, to take advantage of the landscaped back yard and/or another nice view.
3) Not all bathrooms are created equal, particularly when they are the least used room in the house.
4) Roger on the 2'0" doors. The older I get, the more important that becomes.
Edited 3/10/2008 10:08 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
I like your rules.
Of course rules are meant to be broken.
The first rule of yours I would break would be windows in a (secondary) bathroom. In fact that's what I'll do on my own house soon, when I bump a new master bathroom out, covering over the existing bathroom window.
And the house came with a north-facing driveway. With retaining walls on both sides. Tough winter for that.
And a west-facing deck, but trees shade that....
I really do like your list though ;-)
It's all stuff we learned, from houses we used to spec.
North facing drive on a hill during the winter, 1/2" or better of snow & you had to put in 4 wheel drive just to get in or out. Back in the days when you had to get out & turn the Hubs for the 4by.
Deck on the South west corner, if you went out 2hrs before sunset yiu would bake, made it tough to enjoy summertime dinner BBQ's No trees for shade.
One of the first houses I built in the 80's the main bath on the 1st floor I installed a 2-0 bath door. Real estate lady brings by a buyer, women with a 36" Butter Butt, she could not get through the door to the bath, was kind of funny at the time watching her try.
Is it a negative to consumers?
It would be to me. I personally do not care for ANY room without windows.
As for consumers in general....not sure. But it does seem to me that it's quite often the intangibles that sell the home. And the lack of that make them harder to sell.
What I mean by that, is quite often potential homebuyers can't even put a finger on what it is they do, or don't like about certain houses.
I've seen trac homes......absolute duplicates of one another.....where the paint colors on the walls make all the difference as to how fast the home sells.
If folks aren't able to discern that a slap of paint on the walls is the only difference between two houses, I could certainly see where a home with bathrooms lacking natural light could be an issue.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Pp, Qq
As for consumers in general....not sure. But it does seem to me that it's quite often the intangibles that sell the home. And the lack of that make them harder to sell.
Absolutely true. But being pragmatic, don't you think that a great master bath with all the goodies, including a view of the forest, trumps a couple of average windowless bathrooms meant for the kids?
The other intangibles there are a considerable inducement; an excellent view of the Hudson Valley and a quiet country setting being the main ones.
The problem is one of priorities; do I squeeze two of the kids' bedrooms down from 12X12 to 9X12 in order to put a small opaque window in one of their bathrooms?
Remember, it's the middle floor in a three story ICF home which doesn't lend itself to pushing out walls in order to gain space for big, individual bathrooms for each bedroom. Push out one floor, the other two go with it.
In my opinion the main focus is to make the two kids' bedrooms large enough so that either or both of them can accommodate two kids, comfortably. Two equal bathrooms in the hall, one for each gender, seems to be the best solution.
Having learned from others here that windowless bathrooms are common, I can easily live with the decision to leave these secondary baths well lit and well vented, but with a switch on the wall.
yup I don't see what the issue is at all. The master has the window and view etc.. . It would not be an issue to me at all that the others are on the interior of the house. In fact, it is exactly the case in my house also. I am a big lover of windows and bright spaces, but it has never occured to me to say gee I wish I had windows in these secondary bathrooms. For ventilation.. a good fan, or HRV in the house.
Thanks for confirming the logic which seems obvious to me.
Here's another point worth considering. When a bathroom is placed, say, fifteen feet from the HW heater, there is a loss of water and heating fuel, every time the hot water is turned on. When two gallons of water is heated, then loses that energy while sitting in a pipe, it's a total waste of fuel.
I've lived in simple conditions for extended periods, both here in America and in developing countries. The water used for showering is carried in a pail from the heat source to the shower stall where it's poured over the body, one cup at a time. In this way, a person can have a complete bath, including shampoo, with two gallons of water.
So the economy of placing bathrooms directly above or adjacent to the HW heater isn't about saving money on copper pipe.
My basement bath has no window.
& 90% of highrise residential don't have windows in the bath.
“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.” —Albert Einstein
Thanks Bill, Glad to know what the priorities are in the highrise condo business.
From the what it's worth dept. If as it seems, you are very concerned with economy I don't know that a window will be that important in the functioning of the bathroom. As has been stated, there are many many baths without natural lighting and ventilation being built these days.
However, the use of windows can add a lot of interest. I am in the process of designing a house with a master bath that has three 2'-0"x6'-0" csmt windows (mulled) parallel to and 12" from the tub. Beyond that is a small deck/balcony with a privacy screen around the balcony. With plants etc on it, it will provide a pleasant relaxing view while soaking (or what ever) in the tub. This gives the bathroom a totally different feel with this glass wall completely across one end.
I've even had the potty next to a glass wall before with the deck/screen arrangement. Adds a little spice to the most mundane chores.
Last week I was doing work in a bathroom, there was no window. When I was done I filpped all the switches. And when the light didn't go out I looked up at the ceiling. They had one of those light tubes piping in sunlight. The room was totally lit. Check them out!
Do you expect people (usually of the female persuasion) to apply makeup in the bathroom?
If so, you need natural light.
Do you expect people (usually of the female persuasion) to apply makeup in the bathroom?
If so, you need natural light.
Might be nice but it's not required. Make-up mirrors have a ring of small incandescent bulbs around them. And when a woman puts on the real warpaint, it's for a night out so they don't depend on natural light, ever.
Kind of like Countess Dracula, eh?
"How would you like your stake ma'am?"
" I prefer blood rare but anyway or anywhere, as long as it's not in my heart."
Edited 3/11/2008 10:04 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
A few years ago I replumded an older home, as the house was completely gutted. I was able to talk the HO into moving the stairway and and several of the interior walls some it would have a more updated floor plan. The one thing I couldn't talk him into was a solar tube for the master bath which had no exterior walls. The bath was part of a shed roof type addition on the south side of the old house. The whole house was to be reroofed as part of the redo. So it would have been a simple thing to include a solar tube.
Last Friday I had a chance to visit the house to explain some of the wiring to a handyman who was putting in some switches. I just had to go look at the bath to see how it turned out. The lady of the house had chosen a fairly dark red paint for the bath. What a dark little hole it had become, the bath looked decent with the light on, I just couldn't help thinking how nice it would have been if they had put the solar tube in.
Several people have written posts here to suggest using solar tubes. I appreciate those suggestions and really like the concept. They just don't fit well in this situation.
"They just don't fit well in this situation."
Why not? Can't you just run it up the wall alongside the venting? It doesn't have to be direct, I believe they also make them flexible so you can get the light from roof to room indirectly.
Why not? Can't you just run it up the wall alongside the venting?
Long run, about 15', to get out the roof. That requires a 12" diameter tube. Not an easy fit, going up through a large, open kitchen.
Hey, if a new way presents itself, it'll happen. But, IMO, nobody's life will be diminished by using a bathroom which has no window for a few minutes out of each day.
That's particularly true when the same people will be coming from and returning to bedrooms which have grand views of the surrounding forest.
Here's another point for all of us to consider; how many hours per day do we sit and look at TV and computer screens? How much natural light is coming off of them?
I've recently been noticing significant eye fatigue from hours of looking at this screen. That's worrisome enough that I'm going to further limit my participation here and computer time in general.
Have to agree with Riversong - try for natural daylight. The other thing that people forget is that a window you can see through, even a small one without much view, can visually expand a space. Small bathrooms feel less tight if the eye can travel outside the physical bounds of the room.
Have lived with both situations ; will always have windows in bathrooms from now on.
I had the same situation and with our long winters in Alaska I was more than a bit concerned. Fortunetly I had an adjacent room with big windows so I placed some glass block in various patterns in the adjoining wall and it made a huge difference. At a minium see if you can at least fake it with something. And yes it will be considered at time of resale.
Having the garage and drive on the north side is kind of nasty at times. However it also has advantages such as covering that cold wall with a building. The loss of windows to the north is hardly missed. The problem would be more worser on all the other sides. What's the big disadvantage?
All our bathrooms are in the interior areas and I read FHB there and never miss the daylight.
An update: After considering several well reasoned posts on this question, supporting natural light in children's bathrooms, I decided to get some opinons about the importance of home theater and where it should be placed.
I had previously assumed that younger people were very involved in high tech TV viewing, and so would want to have their home theater in a very convenient place.
As it turns out, none of those responding were at all passionate about home theater. As a result I decided to leave that room out of the floor dedicated to bedrooms.
By opening up that additional space and moving the rooms around, it became possible to have private baths for all four bedrooms with medium sized awning windows in each of the children's bathrooms.
Thanks to all who spoke up on this question. It really helps to listen to you all and consider what you say.
Edited 3/14/2008 2:06 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
HudsonWhen you have some close to final plans drawn maybe you could post them and we can really tear our teeth into them for you.Wallyo
I'll consider that, as long as ya'll don't sharpen your canines.