There’s a story in the news here in Chicago about a woman who had a bat in her bedroom that tested positive for rabies. Apparently she has had over 300 bats in the attic for years (she rents the house) and that didn’t bother here at all until the rabid bat showed up in the bedroom. I can’t believe someone would have no objections to a colony of bats in their house! I guess her heat bills were low due to all the guano insulating the attic floor.
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FWIW, and for those of us who look around in attics and stuff, I've been told by the pest control people that the way to tell bat guano from mouse droppings is that the bat stuff will have shiny little flakes in it from the insects they eat.
"It is as hard for the good to suspect evil, as it is for the bad to suspect good."
-- Marcus Tullius Cicero, statesman, orator, writer (106-43 BCE)
Bob, I'm a caver and my BIL researched bats for a while. Yes, bat poop has little shiny insect wings bits in it. Rodent poop doesn't.
Best (well, coolest) explosive in the Anarchists Cookbook: mortar & pestle some bat gauno (nitrates) with fruit loops (sugar) to make a crude (and colorful) white gunpowder.David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
That bomb is lovingly mentioned in Still Life With Woodpecker by Tom Robbins. Has another made from just the red spots on old playing cards--they had an explosive dye. (May have a few things screwed up there, but pretty sure name and title are right. Earlier thread I mentioned Keenan Williams in Dr. Strangelove, but I think actor's last name is Wynne. Starts with a 'w' anyway.
Ahh, bats and bombs! Like the US scheme in WWII to release bats over Japan with tiny timed incindery devices. The bats would roost in the paper houses and enough fires would start to create an unstoppable firestorm. Sort of a bio-Dresden.
It worked too well. Some bats got away and a US aircraft hanger burned down. So the program was discontinued.David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
If you've heard of that (seems like I heard something like that, but don't remember a carrier burning) you probably heard of this plan: there was a Japanese legend or fairytale that had something to do wih foxes that were luminous at night and they were a bad omen (ya think?--sort of a Japanese Hound of the Baskervilles?), so army intelligence or whatever decided to paint a bunch of foxes with phosphorescent paint and drop them by parachute into Japan. Don't know if they actually tried it.
Of course, you know the Japanese released balloons with incendiary devices to set the forests and cities on fire in the Northwestern United States. At least until a few years ago I heard that people would still occassionally find one of these devices.
And not to forget our Canadian neighbors, there was project Habikuk that made a man-made iceberg to serve as an aircraft carrier. They made it out of like paper pulp or wood fiber mixed with water to form ice. It was formed on a refrigerated framework of tubing, I think. The resulting berg resisted melting because the fibers would let the surface water evaporate and keep it cool. They fired a torpedo at it and it just made a little crater. I heard that at the end of the war, they turned off the refrigeration unit and it took several months to melt.
"Of course, you know the Japanese released balloons with incendiary devices to set the forests and cities on fire in the Northwestern United States"
Yep. And a lot also landed in Canada. They worked. But the press agreed not to report them so the Japanese thought it didn't work and they stopped.
"man-made iceberg to serve as an aircraft carrier."
I have to make me one of those this winter! Get a few oars and a really long extension cord on the Frigidaire. David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
Once worked on a house where there must have been at least 500+ bats in the attic. Homeowner had to hire a pest removal service, who (serious) goes by the name "The Bat Man". No, he doesn't drive a black car, just a bright yellow van with bats, squirrels, and other vermin painted on the side.
Renaissance Restorations
Antique & Victorian Home Restoration Services
http://www.renaissancerestorations.com
You want to be very careful about exposure to bat or bird droppings. It's pretty common to find large deposits of dung infected by a fungus called histoplasmosis which can cause a multisystemic disease. The main effect is on your lungs. I can be devastating. It can ruin you. A friend of mine got it from pigeons. You don't want it.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dbmd/diseaseinfo/histoplasmosis_g.htm
Ron
Ron
I too have a friend who got the same thing, she was a teacher, could not work any more. I know that the affects are permanent.
She was sweeping it up in an attic, was up there for several hours cleaning it up.
Edited 8/19/2004 9:53 pm ET by Doug@es
Doug,
My mother is also a victim of histoplasmosis. It's attacked her eyes rather than her lungs.
First occurance back around '83. That required lasering and left her with scar tissue right in the sweet spot of focus in one eye. Just a big black blank spot there now. After that it seemed to go dormant until '99 when it went to work on the other eye. This resulted in many trips to the U of W eye clinic for various new procedures and cold lasering (red light used in conjunction with a photo-sensitve compound injected into the bloodstream). But alas, the results of each of those treatments was only temporary and eventually she had to resort to the hot laser again to gain control. Again, more scar tissue.
So today........ she can't read anything without the aid of a TV magnifier and can't drive. Can't even mow the lawn as she can't see where she's mowed and where she hasn't. Needless to say, pretty devastating to her lifestyle and freedom. Legally blind now.
The carrier source of the virus is pretty much undoubtedly the chickens that were always around when she was a child and as an adult.
I also knew a girl in my highschool class who was afflicted, but for her it did its thing in her legs. Damn near had to amputate, but it went dormant again in time and she's still fine today.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
There's a similar disease duck hunters sometimes get from plodding around in beaver scat.
Amazing, 500 bats.....I have had a few customers with bats in the attic but never near that degree.
I did buy a house once that had so much bird, coon, and bat doo doo that I spent 4 hours shop vaccing it out. Filled a large shop vac twice. DanT
Bat guano (remember Keenan Willaims (is that the actor's name) in Dr. Strangelove?), anyway, bat guano is great fertilizer. Plus, bats eat a lot of insects, and where I live where the crows, and a few people, are all getting West Nile Virus, the bats are good because they get rid of mosquitos. Bats are Federally protected, BTW, so don't let anyone see you killing one.
But you can kill all you want if there in your house! just drag the carcase back inside if you kill it out on the front stoop!
Just like I do with people who break in! ;-)
I knew someone that had bats in their attic in the California foothills. A parasite bug from the bats called the "Bloodsucking conenose" in the Assassin Bug family infested the house and bit the man and his wife in the bed at night. The bug carried a disease similar to Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever which was very serious. The bites were also very nasty and painful I heard. The biting bug nymphs were as small as rice grains. The mature adults are about an inch long.
To rid the house they waited till nightfall and covered all the entry points. When the bats returned they went bezerk because there were young bats still in the attic.
You can rid a house of bats without trapping the young inside (wouldn't their rotting carcasses be a pleasant aroma?).
Drape screen or mesh over all vents, or openings. If it's a gable vent, staple the screen along the top, and sides, letting the screen hang down a foot or so below the vent so it flaps against the siding. Leave the bottom open.
When the bats exit at dusk, they'll drop down out the bottom. But they are unable to reenter. They're not able to pull the screen away from the siding and levitate up. Leave it like this for 10-14 days and they'll all have escaped. Then cover the openings or use hardware cloth so the vent still functions. Oh, I've heard bats can get into any space a 1/4 inch or larger, so they will sometimes work their way in along the eaves. So, seal those up before doing the screen method mentioned above.
I think there are only certain times during the year when you can do this without riskiing trapping the young in. I think it's the spring when babies are born, but by mid summer I think they can fly to get their own food.
The bats are somewhat territorial and will most likely take up residence in a neighbor's unprotected attic. So you still get the benefits of them eating your bugs at night!
6
Bats aren't all bad. Rabies risk is really quite small. I think bats have a big PR problem.
I know gardeners who are delighted to have bats in the attic, as they happily harvest the fertilizer. Plus, the number of folks peddling bat houses points towards the other advantages. Mosquitos carry disease too, remember.
I have some living in the eves (outside).
I'd rather they stay out of the house, but I'm happy to see them on the job around dusk.
Yes, I'd like to have more bats around my house (Alaskan mosquitos, you know). Especially if they were housed outside. Bat houses are pretty easy to make for temperate climates. But up here, I think they are looking for a place out of the cold since they need to hibernate for many months on very small body stores. So do I make a thermostatically controlled bat house and keep it plugged it?David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
Au contraire - the rabies risk is unacceptable, no matter what it is. To those in the rabies treating business, the rules for bat exposure are that you treat unless - again, unless - you have proof there was no bite. And that doesn't mean lack of bite marks. It means a fully conscious person who can testify that the bat never touched them.
In short - keep the critters out of your house at all costs. Even keep them away from your eaves. A significant number of cases of rabies come from bat bites. An even more significant proportion of four legged animal rabies can be traced to bat strains of rabies.
Bats are cute; bats are helpful to us; but bats are also inherently a danger to humans that must be respected. Not feared, just respected. No one with any sense ever walks behind a mule or horse within kicking range. Why do the equivqlent w/ bats?
DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
"An even more significant proportion of four legged animal rabies can be traced to bat strains of rabies."
True. As geno-typing has become more common, most rabies cases get identified as originating from bats. Maybe it was a cat scratch, but the cat must have snagged a bat (I've seen it happen and a fluttering bat is very tempting!). More than any other mammals, bats have been able to live with rabies as a chronic infection. Like some monkeys and SIV (Simian Imno-deficient Virus) can last a lifetme and raise a family much more readily than humans can with HIV.
Skunks are also more resistant to rabies and therefore more of a risk.
David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
"An even more significant proportion of four legged animal rabies can be traced to bat strains of rabies."
True."
From everything I've read .... and the few "bat experts" I've crossed ... as well as a coupla vats I've talked to ... False.
Bats are mammals ... and like all mammals ... can carry rabies. No more ... no less.
The lung disease deal ... true. But it ain't their fault we wanna sweep up their sh!t ....
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
HA HA HA!!!!!!!!! You just kill me at times man. DanT
Jeff: Need to talk to my vet - she agrees that bats can survive a very long time w/ rabies as a carrier and not die from it. I talked w/ a principal investigator in bat studies at New Mexico State Univ (Las Cruces) back in 1963 who talked about their ability to survive w/ the disease. He did the first decent study that was more than anecdotal about being able to contract rabies from the air in caves w/ high percentages of infected bats. Used cats in cages that were secure enough to prevent the bats from getting at the test animals. The cats contracted rabies. There are some other interesting aspects to rabies - f'rinstance, opossums are about 50,000 times more resistant to catching it than cats & dogs. BUT - 'possums aren't mammals, they are marsupials; but they can still catch the disease.
Bottom line - as a human being, I will not mess w/ bats. The bat strains of rabies are particularly virulent, and in some cases, like bites to the head & neck, not successfully treatable. Been there, done that, wear the rabies exposure & treatment tee shirt from exposure to potentially infected coyote brain tissue. Not worth it.
DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
Don do you remember the name of the researcher? The lasttime we had this discussion you mentioned that & tried to find a paper on the subject but no luck. I would love to read his research.
Rob: I didn't think anyone remembered those old posts. Cannot remember the man's name. We all talked about him as "The Bat Man." This was in 1963 - 41 yrs ago. He was probably in his 40's at the time, so most likely dead by now. There are a lot of bats in NM, an understatement, to be sure. Also a lot of caves. I cannot recall the organization he worked for, but if you contact New Mexico state University in Las Cruces, NM, I betcha they can get you to the right place. I do recall that he commented that money was short, so they could never follow up w/ a really sound scientific study on airborne transmission. He also commented that rabies in bats was a real problem in NM & west Texas. The populations were hewvily infected - about 30%, I think. He also said it took about 17% infection in a small cave w/ a lot of bats to get airborne transmission.
My discussion was on a sidewalk outside the EE Bldg (Goddard Hall, named after Dr. Robert Goddard of rocket fame) w/ a friend who knew the man. I had found a dead bat in the very small, closed in hall outside my office that day, and was quite leery of it. Let it lie there all day to be sure it was, indeed, dead before sweeping it out. Came away w/ a healthy respect for that disease, and a desire to never get exposed. HA! So much for plans. At least the treatment improved before I got exposed.
Any one who laughs at bat bites is really playing Russian Roulette w/ 5 rounds in the cylinder.
DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
A carpenter I used to work with occasionally told me how he used to fix up houses to keep bats out. He'd go in during the day and shoo them all out and then he could see the holes with the daylight coming through into the darl attic. He said he'd been bitten more times than he could count! I'm sure he never got a rabies shot. Guess he was very lucky. It creeped me out how cavalier he was about getting bitten! He said in one house the guano had seeped through the ceiling and the bats were found when the HO noticed the stain and investigated.
Do bats kick?! Couldn't resist; just being a butthead. carry on with what you were doing. ;-)
Danno: I KNEW someone would take that line. Believe it or not, I learned about NOT walking behind horses & mules from a college math course on probability. Had a section on Poisson Distributions. It discussed "The probability of being kicked to death by a horse in the Prussian Army Cavalry" as an example of what this distribution described. This was back in 1955. How could you ever forget a discussion like that? About as good as kicking bats!
DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
"Bats in the attic"
I was positive this thread was going to be about me.
"Criticism without instruction is little more than abuse." D.Sweet
Luka: Couldn't - had nothing to do w/ neked wimmen!
DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
ROAR !!
"Criticism without instruction is little more than abuse." D.Sweet
When I was about 15, I worked for a guy whose mother had bats in her attic. She kept after Robert about getting rid of them. He divised a grand plan which included the help of a gullible helper (me). We were to go into the attic he with glove and sack in hand and me with drop light. He assured me the bats would not fly as long as there was a light present. He would simply pull the hanging bats from the rafter down into the sack and we would take the sack to the river and drown them.
Up we went and all was well untill he put his gloved hand on the bats. Man, They flew everywhere, and I broke the light bulb on the rafters waving it around trying to keep them off me. They were in my hair on my neck just every where. We made it out of there without the bats in the sacks or on us and without falling through the ceiling and without a case of rabbies.
Next step was to call the exterminater.
kcoyner
Kc
Man the things we will try when we dont know what the hell we are doing!
Man the things I find around here are ???? but lots of fun.
We've had some recent fun with bats in our house. It's a fixer-upper, so we've been maintaing a web site. Here's a link to the Journal section of the site. If you scroll down to July 15th, the fun with bats begins. There are some cool bat pics too.
http://home.comcast.net/~dpsours/_sgt/m3_1.htm