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Discussion Forum

Be careful of Waterfurnace?

bcsmith | Posted in Energy, Heating & Insulation on July 22, 2005 02:03am

After lots of thought and some posts here I decided to go geothermal with the last house I built for myself.  After more research I went with Waterfurnace. 

The house is fiberglass batt in walls and fiberglass blown in attic.  I spray foam in all cuts of the OSB and all holes for wiring in exterior walls and studs so if there is air infiltration it is contained a bit.

The house qualified for the mid american rebate that requires a pressure test.  I can’t remember what it blew but they said it was tighter than the average house and may need an air to air exchanger.  Seems to me the qualifying number was 1.8 (I may have lost several digits and this number may mean nothing to you but it’s the ratio that’s important here) and the house was a .8.

Last winter in January, my heating bills were higher than my last house (that I built also to about the same standards).  

I thought at first that my meter was wrong, but Mid Am came out took it back and tested it and said it was ok.  They actually admitted to me when they took it that they though it was functioning improperly because my house was the highest Geotherm house they had seen.

My installer said the geo would work better in the second year as the earth stored the cold in the winter and the heat in the summer?

Then my trim/interior door supplier said he had a waterfurnace installed by the same guy and he was getting high bills too.  He said the installer would no longer return his calls but he said prior to that the guy told him the same stuff about “next year being better”

Within 2 weeks or so my installer stopped returning my calls.

The Waterfurnace rep finally showed up in March and said I should have one of those heat image things done, another pressure test, and that I needed to have a meter put specifically on the furnace to make sure it was drawing the majority of the electricity ( I guess his point was if something else in the house was costing me $150 a month in electricity, it wasn’t the furnace’s fault, well ok maybe so).  He said he would check on a couple of things and get back to me in a month or so.

Well, time passed, my non-heat/cool months averaged $75 total.  I called Waterfurnace today today to get the name of the regional rep (I lost it) and I was passed to a very snotty PR person that said I needed to send them a years worth of bills, I said I’ve been through this before, you’ve already got them up to march but they just go back to November because that’s when we turned it on for the first time.  She said we need all the bills and we need what you expect your bills to be in writing. 

Each time I asked a question she repeated it incorrectly to me and then proceeded to answer the incorrect question with the company line.

Finally I said if you had installed this system wouldn’t you expect the hvac bills to be lower than a similar house with forced gas air and 12 seer AC?  She said mail us all of the bills and what you expect the heating and cooling costs to be and hung up.

After my conversation with her I began to think she might be getting a lot of these calls, otherwise, why the attitude?

By the way my electric bills have been right around $300 all elec for the heating AND cooling months ( wouldn’t you think the cooling months would be lower?)  In my last house which was 200 sq feet bigger the heat/cool would have been $240 gas/elec in the winter and $280 in the summer with cost and degree days adjusted.

I’m wondering if any of you have had good/bad experiences with waterfurnace.  If good, any ideas who I should talk to?

Listen I know I’m not talking big bucks her, but I was led to believe my bills would be 30% less in winter and 50% less in summer.

If I’m off base I look forward to being corrected.  Thanks for any info you can provide,

Bill Smith

Reply

Replies

  1. User avater
    AdamGreisz | Jul 22, 2005 02:39am | #1

    Where are you located?

     

    Adam Greisz

    Owen Roberts Group

    10634 East Riverside Drive # 100

    Bothell, WA 98011

    http://www.owenrobertsgroup.com

    1. bcsmith | Jul 22, 2005 04:29am | #4

      Eastern Iowa.

      Thanks

  2. junkhound | Jul 22, 2005 04:16am | #2

    Climate? location? elec rates?  Split or packaged WF?  R22 or 410A??  Installer credentials?? 

    Most HVAC guys will say that installation is everything, esp charge on a split system; sounds like there may be an incompetent installer got into the loop, even heard of rocks being in the ground loop blocking flow.

    This sounds like a good one to put over at HVAC-talk.com, those guys ike to either praise their distributors brand or trash the other guys, but some practical experience with many makes can be found there. 

    1. bcsmith | Jul 22, 2005 04:41am | #5

      The installer told me he installed something like 80 systems last year.  Turns out he had installed 80 loops for himself and other hvac contractors with his second company.  I don't know how many geothermal systems he actually installed.

      Elec rates are .08823

      I'm in east central Iowa.

      According to my non geothermal hvac guy the temp change through the loop is 5 degrees which sounded correct to him.  I don't know if they've ever checked to see if lines are flowing properly.

      Sorry, don't know the rest of the stuff you're asking

      Thanks

  3. User avater
    CloudHidden | Jul 22, 2005 04:26am | #3

    What size is the unit? How many amps does it draw?

    I have a geo, FHP brand. It draws 13.9 amps. At my rates that's about $99/mo running 24/7.

    I'm a little suspicious of a few things, including "tighter than avg" when you have f/g batts and such. You're at 300/mo and tighter than avg, while I heat/cool 6000ish sf and average $160-175/mo all elec.

    I believe you, of course, but some of the numbers just sound off. Start by verifying key numbers and we eliminate possibilities from there. Like the others asked, location, size of house, etc?

    1. bcsmith | Jul 22, 2005 05:13am | #6

      I went down to the unit but the amperage numbers on the label look way too high.  It's got 2 220 circuits going to the thing, one's for backup heat, and there could be another for the loop pump.  I believe it is 4 ton heat, 6 ton cool.

      Granted, blown in does reduce air infiltration, but as I said I am very careful to foam any openings through the osb and and any holes in the exterior studs etc.  Windows and doors are all taped with that rubber/foil stuff.   Windows are Marvin Integrity, doors are Therma tru.  I checked all windows and doors with smoke while the unit is running and there was only slight infiltration in 2 doors.  Strike plates were adjusted and the problem was seemingly eliminated.  This was done on a relatively calm day.

      The home is 3200 sq feet.  The supply side (or return, I can't remember right now) is ducted twice to control the upstairs zone and the downstairs zone.

      The AC is set at 74.  In the winter the heat is set around 68.

      When I first called Waterfurnace in January they said it was my thermostats, and replaced them.  No difference.  When the Waterfurnace regional guy was here he noticed one of the connectors was incorrectly seated on the furnace circuit board, missing 2 pins and incorrectly connected to 4 more.  He reseated it.  No difference.

      Originally the furnace showed with an led that it was also heating the waterheater water, since the regional guy's visit it has never lit again.

      Thanks for anything you can do,

      Bill

       

       

      1. User avater
        constantin | Jul 22, 2005 07:13am | #7

        I would go over the control wiring with a fine-toothed comb. One contractor posted a story the other day (on the Wall?) about a new GSHP customer what had jsut spent $2300 on a winters worth of kWh and was putting in a wood pellet stove to keep the place warm instead.Turns out that whoever installed the unit did some funny kludging in the walls with wire nuts and the thermostat wiring. As a result, any call for heat resulted in the emergency heat strips coming on as well. This is what I would check first!My mum in FL had a similar dyslexic installer who had the Trane so wonderfully wired that the heat strips came on whenever the T-stat was calling for heat or cooling. You can imagine what that did to the bills ($$$).

        1. User avater
          CloudHidden | Jul 22, 2005 08:59am | #8

          >As a result, any call for heat resulted in the emergency heat strips coming on as well. This is what I would check first!I second this advice. Hell, disconnect the backup heat. Probably don't need it, so why risk the $$$. We're getting 4 tons pulling 13.9 amps, while our backup added 1 ton at 19 amps. Duh, no wonder our first month was over $400. Never again. The reason the backup ran is be/c we had the set point too high and be/c one of the manifolds was overextended. Solved that problem and disconnected the backup and set the set point controller to a reasonable level (105 instead of 115) and it's been working smooth as a hot knife through butter.Bill, what's the 5 degree delta T on? I hope not the incoming and outgoing loop temp...IIRC we bring it in about 55 and send it back out around mid 30's. (Hope I didn't remember that wrong...)

          1. DaveRicheson | Jul 22, 2005 02:32pm | #9

            A 20 degree delta T on the loop is optimal. Sounds like yours is on the money.

            A delta T of 5 degrees in the loop means something is not right.

            I wonder what the delta T is across the coil. A $10 digital probe thermometer stuck in the supply air plenum could tell him a lot.

            That "second year will be better than the first" remark was a dead giveaway to me. It was pure BS.

            Another question comes to mind. How were the loops installed, horizontal or vertical? How deep and how long are each loop? Shallow and short loops can be a very big problem for GSHPs. Is what he paid for, what he really got?

            Me thinks something is amiss with the system, starting with the installer. Paying another GSHP/HVAC specialist to document and gather enough information to lay at Waterfurnaces' door step may be the way to go.

             

            Dave

          2. junkhound | Jul 22, 2005 02:32pm | #10

            disconnect the backup heat

            Amen:

            Bill:  -  simply turn off the bigger breaker on the air handler, that will disconnect the backup heat. Even on an air-air HP, if DW or you can stand a little cold air when the defrost cycle hits, it saves lots. On a GSHP (I still dont like to call them geothermal, that is for ground water over 150F) yu do not have the defrost problem or blast of cold air. Only time you may need to turn that breaker back on is when it drops below zero.

            BTW, Seattle area, 4T air to air HP, 8 cents kWhr, 5300 sq ft, not that tight, about $100 month in Dec-Feb for heating.

          3. bcsmith | Jul 22, 2005 04:42pm | #11

            Guys, thanks for all the info.

            The temp drop was 5.6 degrees and it was in march.  The drop is now noticable.  I would guess 20 plus degrees. 

            Talked to a friendly waterfurnace guy today.  He's the PR lady's supervisor.  He says in the winter they generally see 4 to 8 degrees and in the summer 18 to 30 degrees.  He's going to contact the regional guy so the regional guy can request waterfurnace factory tech from Indianapolis to come here.

            Again thanks for the info.  If you think of anything else, I'd appreciate the info.

            Bill

  4. JohnT8 | Jul 22, 2005 05:09pm | #12

    Are you using the geothermal as a water heater?   I mean primary water heating, not the desuperheater surplus that you get in summer.

    I seem to remember reading about another waterfurnace home owner who decided it wasn't geothermal's forte to operate as a water heater.  If I remember correctly, it was because the DHW needed 120 degrees while the geothermal was geared more for 80-90.  It could do it, but would have to run a lot to get there.

    here is the guy's website:

    http://www.ourcoolhouse.com/

    He has a forum on the site you can ask him rather than rely on my bad memory.

     

    jt8

    The reason so many people never get anywhere in life is because when opportunity knocks, they are out in the backyard looking for four-leaf clovers.
    -- Walter Percy Chrysler

    1. bcsmith | Jul 22, 2005 09:02pm | #13

      It's the desuperheater.  You're correct, the geo max is 90 degrees or so.  It helps to heat the water when there is hot water usage and the water in the heater falls under the 90 degree mark. 

      Thanks,

      Bill

      1. sledgehammer | Jul 23, 2005 02:20am | #14

        I have been looking at geothermal and this is very interesting.

        Is your system open or closed loop? I was in a house not long ago that had an open loop system that needed 12 drilled wells. I really didn't understand it and had a difficult time justifying 6- 220v well pumps running as a way to save money.

         

        I have been leaning towards direct exchange but there really isn't much info out there to make an informed decision and the nearest installer is over 150 miles away.

         

        Please post when and if they solve the problem.

      2. User avater
        CloudHidden | Jul 23, 2005 04:09am | #15

        >You're correct, the geo max is 90 degrees or so.Wow, I've always run at the recommended 105-115. I've not heard of 90 as a max before. I'm really surprised.

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