I’m going to be adding a storage loft over my garage door. It is 22′ wide and 10′ deep – basicly it coveres the area over the garage door when it is up. Here is the layout I was planning:
This is the overhead view: The blue is the three walls, the purple is the beam, and the brown are 10′ long joists on 24″ centers. All covered with 1/2″ OSB.
I need to get a handle on the sizing here. I was thinking a 2×8 LVL or 4×6 LVL for the beam and 2×6 for the joists… but then I was thinking that may be overbuilding it. The space is 1′ high at the edges and about 4′ high in the center – no one is going to be standing on this platform, just misc boxs and lumber storage.
If I build it light I was thinking of a 2×8 common lumber beam and 2×4 joists… but would that be too light for storage?
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
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Edited 1/6/2006 12:46 am ET by xxPaulCPxx
Edited 1/6/2006 12:53 am ET by xxPaulCPxx
Replies
If I understand you right, you're talking about a 22' clear span beam made out of 2X8s, and you think that's overkill?
A 2X8 beam spanning that far would be ridiculously undersized. You either need support for the beam somehow, or need a MUCH bigger one.
I don't see joist sizing as much of a big deal, although you do need to think in terms of how much stuff might end up in this storage area eventually. What I do see as an issue is the beam spanning 22'. For example, a double 2x8 would probably sag under it's own weight. Also you need to tie the beam into the walls very well. Jack studs supporting the bottom of the ends of the beam would be the way to go.
Sorry I didn't mention it - but yes this will be supported by jack studs at the ends and bolted to the framing.
I'll take this over to the lumberyard and see if they can calculate an LVL for this. I was hoping this might be one of those "Oh, yes - I've built dozens of these" kind of questions.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
"I was hoping this might be one of those "Oh, yes - I've built dozens of these" kind of questions."
Paul - You were kidding, right? You've hung out here for how long, and you thought what? Somebody ought to put a beatin' on you for even suggesting that. Your preference - Piffen or Diesel?
Good luck, guy.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
LOL, you've been to the other beam thread, I take it?
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Piffen - I've been to the other one and several before that. You and Diesel stand out in my mind as being two of the most vociferous advocates of proper sizing and calculations - and not cutting corners. Some of the others get pretty loud too.
BTW, I asked you in another thread (somewhere) what you thought about the book "First Break All the Rules". I never heard anything back. Care to comment?
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
HEY HEY HEY - Start another thread for book reports! ;)
I just got off the phone with Weyerhaeuser. They said if I just screwed some old 2x4's stcked on top of one another... kidding of course.
They pointed me to the 3.5 x 11 7/8 ($246.40) or the 5.25 x 9.5 ($317.46) PSL beam. Hmmm, If I just stacked and glued 2x6s on top... KIDDING!
BTW - my local lumber yard - Ganahl - offered no help in helping me size a beam other than giving me a brochure so I could call Weyerhaeuser myself.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
I'm thinking putting 2 or 3 LVLs together might be cheaper by maybe a third. Still need to have it sized by the manufacturer, etc though. Plus, with LVLs you could possibly assemble the beam in place and that way probably do it with maybe only 1 helper instead of needing 2 or 3 or 4.
I can't remember the context of that thread, but do remember your question about that book. I thought I'd replied that I had not heard of it. Is it a Motley Fools book?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
If you did respond, Taunton didn't get back to me and I never caught it on my own. It's not Motley Fools that I know of. Blue had given me the name, and I didn't get to it, then I thought I saw you say in one of the threads that you had read it. Anyway, I'll get to it and maybe I can tell you something about it. Thanks anyway.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
(Edit - I found the question in the thread on investments; you did respond and I never saw the response. Sadly, I can't seem to find the part where you said you read the book to start with. )
Edited 1/6/2006 10:27 pm ET by DonK
First things first, you have to decide how much weight you're going to need to support up there. Will you be storing bricks and books, or styrofoam cups? You might use a value as high as 150 pounds per square foot live load for a storage area, or maybe down to about 50 psf. Your local building code may specify a minimum. How many square feet of storage? With those numbers, the floor design, and the 22' span, we can figure the pounds per lineal foot on the beam.
Given that you want to keep the beam depth small, it's time to think steel. We could work it out the other way, start, say, with a W10x17 beam, and figure out the maximum PSF it could carry.
-- J.S.
I do have to look into steel beams for this - just not sure yet where to look yet.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Look in the phone book for a steel supplier. Our supplier can give you sizes and prices over the phone if you have size and loading info.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
About 4 years ago, I bought a piece of w8x15 from a place that's probably not too far from you. I'll try to find the paperwork.
-- J.S.
Thanks!
I'm also looking into Dietrich's "TradeReady" steel floor joists as a posibility for going across the span - if I can get them thin enough.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Paul,
While I've never had to do the math to size a beam, I have worked on a couple of structures in my past.
I would look at a double 2x14 LVL as a bit of undersize on that layout. I most definately would never place my body underneath, or even near, it with 2x8 LVL.
On the other hand, I would enjoy watching you trying to place a stick of 2x8x22' common up there. LOL
Give a whole new meaning to the term "Ribbon" Joist. LOL again.
SamT
As all before have posted a 2X8 over a 22' span needs some additional beef. Look up and you may find your own solution. Your post stated that the space had 1' on the sides and 4' in the middle of clearance. Does that mean you have an unfinished space? Cathedral? Any way, is it possible to bring support down from above-ie. tie into the ridge beam, collar tie or other framing member to support your 2x8-- 2 supports should be plenty, spaced aprox.7' apart. since your just storing your plastic reindeer up there for 11 months outta the year. If your not comfortable with your eyeball engineering - post another drawing with your framing setup and the sharp pencil boys on the forum will figure the loads.
I do have a big ridge beam running down the center perpendicular to the direction of the proposed beam, but I'd like to not hang anything off of it if possible. I'd preffer the beam to take all the weight, but if that means I need to use a $1000 beam that weighs 1000 lbs and is 14" tall (which would either impinge on storage space or my forhead space)... if it's that bad then I'll look at hanging some load on the ridge beam.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
I would be careful tieing into the ridge beam. It sounds like you have a beam that is 10' long supporting a rafter span of 11' on each side. Fastening your storage loft to this beam may be a significant increase in loading.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
checking the design load for the ridge beam is absolutely necessary if he is to hang from it, but I think it is more like 20 to 24' long. The storage loft is supported on a beam in the skeetch because it is free in middle of the garage room ratgher than suported on a back wall.Still, given his description of a "big" ridge beam, I suspect whoever engineers it will be wanting something a bit more techically specific than just plain old "big"
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OK, fine. I broke out my homeade measuring device to give you an accurate reading of the precise details of the current ridge beam. It came out to be "big azzed" as it was "real thick X super tall".
Thankfully they had a product that wasn't too tall nor too expensive.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
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better use sum whoppin big scruzz to hold it up then;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
That is exactly why I don't want to connect to it!Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
That is laughably undersized, even for the 1.2"decking, but what the heck, it'll be screwed up anyway, right?
that beam is barely adequate to hold the weight of some garage doors, you don't mention what that load will be...
Is the ridge a structural beam? I have to assume so since there is apparantly now now rafter ties in the form of floor stringers/joists. Which way does the ridge run, is it oversized to hang from?
Pictures of existing???
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I don't understand this whole thread. It’s a storage area. It’s not living space. You’re just storing some boxes and lumber. What kind of lumber? Are you planning on stocking thousands of pounds of lumber? It doesn’t sound like it to me. It sounds like just some left over materials and just some stock materials.
If so, why do you even need a beam at all? Just run all your joists the 22' way with double strongbacks and be done with it. You would have to put a beam in the way you want to do it because you’re running the joists the 10' way into the beam and therefore the beam would have to support the joists.
I can't tell you how many garages I've framed over the years with a 24' span for the ceiling using 2x8's and 2x10's with double rows of strongback before. Get yourself some 22' 2x10's or 2x12's or even I-joists and run them in one shot the 22' way with no beam at all and your done.
I thought of that too - framing with the long joists, but in answer to your Q - "I don't understand this whole thread. It’s a storage area. It’s not living space. You’re just storing some boxes and lumber. What kind of lumber? Are you planning on stocking thousands of pounds of lumber? It doesn’t sound like it to me. It sounds like just some left over materials and just some stock materials."- The fact it is storage is exactly why it needs to be safely designed.
#1 - if it falls, who is it going to fall on.It will probably never fall, but it will sag, and when it does, some box'o'crap - motorcycle parts and tires or whatever, will fall off it and maybe bonk somebody on the head. walk in, slamming the door behind you and the voibration from that is the foinal strraw that knocks the thing off the edge just as you get right under it...Also, the garage door tracks are going to have to be hung from this 'shelf' or whatever we call it. When the shelf sags, the door goes out of alignment. Then it is not long before the garage door falls off the tracks. That happens too, ya know. There are two instances of falling garage doors in my locale. Both where the HO did his own install. One was interesting in that the door was probably more solid than the 'garage' that it was installed in. Made a real mess of his car.
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Piffin,From where I'm from everything gets designed and no one has to ask what size beams they need for a project. Obviously here on this forum people don't get things designed and there's a lot of DIY'ers that do stuff that should get designed that don’t get permits and I’m not saying this to the poster. In his case he should get it designed but it doesn't seem like he is. A 22' span is not big for joists even if it will be for storage.My opinion is that he should get it designed like everyone should and when he does he can go the 22' direction with his joists using 2x's or I-joists without a beam. If he's putting a heavy load up there which none of us know going the 22' way he might need 3-1/2" x 11-7/8" I-joists maybe doubled up but I think that's the way to go without a center beam and going the 22' way is the easiest and fastest way to go.I frame rooms above garages all the time with I-joists and the door tracks get screwed to them and every other garage ceilings every day. No ones answers here are the right ones because no one knows what’s there. We can just give suggestions and the poster has to do what they want with them.Joe Carola
yeppersI look at storage as something that will always have more load on it than it is originally intended for - based on experience.My point was mostly in reference to somebody earlier who saidsomething like It's only storage - meaning that it would not matter much if it sagged or failed, without thinking about what is UNDER it when it fails.
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Piffin,Attics are for storage. Everyone stores everything you can imagine in an attic and yet you'll always see the ceiling joists/attic joists smaller than floor joists. You should see what my wife has in my attic with all her plastic rubbermate boxes, Christmas trees and all other junk on top of 2x6’s with a 12’ span.I mean, if the guy is going to make a storage area in his garage and stock thousands of pounds of lumber or car engines then that's a different story but who knows what people will put up there.Joe Carola
Reminds me of an old barnhere with the hayloft above. There is a tons of rough black walnut 2x stored up there, and a boat, and ...Then a guy rented the house and decided to remove a couple posts in the barn tohave more room to workThen he decided to hook a chain joist on his 350 to swap engines in the truck by using a beam that had landed on those two posts...he was lucky it didn't put him in a grave. Other beams creaked and groaned and started to splinter, without totally failing in one swoop. He was able to jack it all back up...
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You are absolutly correct with what you are thinking here - yes, it will be scraps of trim, some sheets of leftover plywood, long boards to be kept out of the way, empty boxes for dishes, old infant/baby gear like a crib and highchair. Basicly alot of bulky and light (baby gear) or weighty but long (wood and sheet goods). I do have bins of metal auto parts too, but I intend on keeping those close so I can use them! As to access - this space is just over the garage door. A regular 8' ladder will get you up, but there will be nothing built in. Only improvemnt to this space may be a plywood hinged door to keep shop dust off the goods.
As to why I am not looking at running the joists across the 22' span, take a look at this front view diagram:
View Image
The black box is the garage door opener, and the grey is the center track. My garage door is only 80" high, but the garage walls - AFTER I raised them 11.5" - are only 8' high. Funky design of low slung ranch housing here in SoCal.
While I could use the crossways joists, I would have to lose a large part of the space I added.
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Take everything I say with the appropriate measure of salt, but it seems to me that you don't just need one beam- you need two, one at each end of your new storage area joists. The other will take the load off your garage door opening, which is currently loaded by your ridge beam if I understand your sketch properly. I suspect it will be undersized considerably for the new load this storage area will impose on it. I also suspect steel will be your best bet.
The header over the garage door is at least 4" x 24" (actual) of wood... that consists of the 4x14 original solid wood beam, the two 2x12 beams with 1/2 plywood spacer on top of that, bound together inside and out with 1/2" OSB, fastened every 6" on each side of the edge where the beams meet. I think a 4x24 site made beam should handle holding the load of the ridge beam, roof, AND a baby crib!
The top of either wall, if I do the joists that way instead, has the 2x12 beams on top of the existing top plate (lifting the roof up 11.5"). I should be OK if I go that way too.
I've been looking up structural steel S and W beams, but I haven't found anything that might tell me what size would be equivalent to the PSL beam. That PSL beam is coming in at between 300 and 350lbs... no fun for one guy!Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
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> That PSL beam is coming in at between 300 and 350lbs... no fun for one guy!
I skidded an 850 pound log around using a block and falls, levers, etc. It actually is kinda fun, and very doable. If you were to go with w10x17 steel, a 22 ft. piece would be 374 lbs. I looked for the paperwork on the steel yard, no luck yet.
-- J.S.
just misc boxs -- scarry!
did a convert for the DIL over garage attic that has only a 16 ft door span. Added permanent stairs also so it really got loaded up.
'Misc boxes' loaded the area to nearly 80 PSF in places!!!
The existing 16 ft span over the door had an existing 6 by 14 gluelam supporting 24 foot roof trusses, needed to double the strength of that beam over the garage for the storage load, so added built up steel beam.. see attachment of built up beam details, all the bolts needed for end of span lateral shear strength. Also provided DIL with detailed allowable load map of the attic floor so whe does not load it up so bad that it falls in on the vans!
Like others said, for 22 ft, 3ea 2x8s are pathetic and a big sag story in the future. 80 PSF on the whole floor would require a wood section modulus of 880! - that is about a BIG 12 by 20 inch glue lam wood piece!
At the fare end of the pasted in pix here, you can see the metal fire door on the 42" stairs leading up to the storage loft. Maybe if you keep it to a pull down stair, it probably wont get loaded so heavily <G>.
View Image
Edited 1/7/2006 9:00 am ET by junkhound
Junkhound - I know you didn't try to underbuild the structure, but I do see one problem with a similar situation where it is underbuilt. What happens to the next owner who doesn't have the road map? or doesn't understand it? It can get a little funky.
That's my concern with either throwing some 2x8s up or whatever. What about the next guy?
Maybe it's partly the legal training, partly just seeing what happens. But the statute of limitations doesn't start running until the accident happens, and somehow the insurance is gone.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
What happens to the next owner who doesn't have the road map?
Good point - the roadmap for loading should be made a permanent part fo the storage area.
In this case, and in their former house where attic storage was added, the loading roadmap was on an 11 by 17 inch printed diagram (NO acronynms on it) and glued to the wall at the top of the storage stairs, with a sheet of screwed down polycarbonate over it for long term protection. 80 PSF is way over code, but code officials never ran into our familiy (and inlaws) storage propensities <G>
Granted, there are probably a lot of people would not even understand what 80 PSF meant, why the diagram has no acronynms. AKA - dont stack the old encyclopedia more than 3 feet high.
> - the roadmap for loading should be made a permanent part fo the storage area.
I know of a large business building that has a big red sign on the door to part of the attic. The signs says something like "Not to be used for storage by order of the Dep't of Building and Safety". That space is stuffed full of filing cabinets with boxes of paperwork stacked on top of them. If I have to go by there, I walk on the other side of the street. ;-)
-- J.S.