This past week I have gotten a little aggresive with getting my face out with the resume in hand. Met some folks I haven’t seen in a long time, and met some new ones as well.
I focused primarily on kitchen and bath shops. More aptly put; places of business that sell kitchen and bath cabinets and related items including counters and tile.
I was just a bit surprised to discover that for the most part these stores are still selling cabinets and not a design build product. Most will refer theie clients to one or more prefered contractors who will take care of all of the rest.
So I got to thinking that this is an excellent opportunity to offer my services to these types of shops.
I’m thinking beyond the onesy twosey jobs from a shop or two…………why not grow a larger company that can provide this service as a known entity to any shop willing to hitch on?
I mean right now they are dealing with Eric, and Mike and maybe the new guy that comes in, or they lose the guy that has been around for 6 years.
They might be selling 30k in cabs, yet they are unable to keep the project in house so to speak. Or gaurantee that their clients will recieve the kind of experience that they deserve, and one that will compell them to recommend this cabinet store to other people.
With my notion they could sell an installed package to their clients and be assured of a satisfied customer.
Wouldn’t they rather deal with a larger dedicated stable outfit that can provide them with a consistent and stable product?
I’d like to hear your thoughts on this wether based on experience or not.
Thanks
Edited 4/8/2009 8:14 pm ET by EricPaulson
Replies
remember us when you've banked your first million.
;)
Good idea
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I can understand where the guys doing the installs are coming from. I did it for five years as almost all of my income. And for one store. You can stay small doing nice work..........
Kitchens and baths are what I know and and do well, and I believe that this type of work lends itself well to systemization of process.
I just tend to believe that there may be a market for a company that can create an identifiable and constistant experience for the consumers at these stores.
Thanks for the vote.
Not how it works here at all. Most K and B showrooms have in house sales and design. Then they sub the installer.
One place I know designs and sells the highest of high end designs in the area. He designs and sells the kitchen and or bath ... and his K's and B's usually involve a fair amount of remodeling.
He'll refer one of his installers who can handle the remodel if need be, but doesn't get too involved. He's told me more than once when I asked .. "why not?"
because he can make great money with out any of the remodeling pitfalls by selling the glitz and avoid any dust.
Maybe those places already have that figured out?
Are you talking starting a big full service remodeling company that primarily subs labor to K and B shops ... plus do the kitchen design?
Are you a certified designer or would you hire one on staff?
I doubt it'd sell unless you were selling "certified design".
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
You misunderstood me or I wasn't clear Jeff.
K&B here is the same as where you are.They do design and sales.
But, other than a referal they do not get involved in install or remodeling.
Now, based on the fact that they are utilizing the services of a half a dozen different installers, how can they deliver a full service consistent product?
Woldn't they be better off dealing with one contractor that delivers a consistant,reliable and predictable product?
I don't understand why they wouldn't bring install in house anyway. i think they are leaving good money on the table.
They are not selling design build.
It's like going out to dinner and buying plates and silverware at one place only to go deal with another to get food put on the plates.
"I don't understand why they wouldn't bring install in house anyway. i think they are leaving good money on the table.
They are not selling design build."
OK ... I get ya know.
Same answer though. They're probably selling boxes and not design build because design build can be a better way to lose more money faster. They have a "known quanity" product ... they sell the known ... they collect $200 and pass Go.
One thing to think about is who many kitchens and/or baths do they have going at once and how many jobs could you support to be at any different phase at any given moment in time.
You would have zero control over scheduling and the promises of their K and B designers and sales staff. Most of the places I've worked around like to promise they'll start demo "tomorrow" if the customer signs "today".
I think most places like a variety of subs because they can always find someone that's available to "jump".
You'd have to have as many crews available and pretty much standing on call to service as many kitchens and baths as they can sell ... with all the extra remodeling they're gonna be promising customers too. Might work if U had a coupla "remodel" crews along with strictly "install" crews ... just cycle the work thru the crews as each job moves from phase to phase.
One more thought ... betting if budgets aren't bottomless ... they'd rather grab the "cabinet money" up front then let someone else ... and the customer ... fight for the left over, hopefully enough, remodeling dollars.
Like I said ... I know one very successful kitchen guy ... and he'll never sell remodeling. He's gone with his cabinet money before people have to divide the rest of the budget up.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Seems to me like they would pi$$ off alot of remodelers / contractors too. Being in direct competiition with them. How many referrals does the place get from independant contractors...?
Scenario - HO wants kitchen. Calls contractor of choice. Get the ball rolling. Asks contractor where to go for design and cab purchase (assuming contractor aint gonna design and supply boxes) It sure aint gonna be to the place that is competing against him.
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Considering that almost all showrooms are offer install somehow...........where else is a contractor going to buy cabinets?
That's actually how I hooked up with the showroom I was doing installs for.
BUT, I went WITH my clients for the initial design consultation.
Are you saying that a contractor might just suggest to his client where to go to look at cabs and turn them loose? And then when the showroom offers to recommend a contractor to do the install he should feel hurt?
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
Hurt? There aint no emotion involved, It's just bidness.
"Are you saying that a contractor might just suggest to his client where to go to look at cabs and turn them loose? "
Not turn them loose - turn them onto a supplier that they feel they have a mutually beneficial relationship with.
My point is that your scenario sets me up to point my customer to a supplier that would completely cut me out. I sure as he11 aint gonna send my work to the people who are cutting me out of the loop. I'll send them to a supplier who services my customer, deals with thier wishes, checks with me, ( as their contractor and the qualified member) And brought the buyer to their door...
They sell and service cabinets. I do the on site, etc. If they feel too comfortable doing onsite - I sell cabinets with someone else.
Just for the record - I am a huge supporter of networking. I have a large group of dudes who do exactly the same work as I do, that I work with, and they with me. I don't cut throats, I solve problems, in the most efficient way for all involved... With all the group that I work with the main ingredient is trust and respect. When I help them on a project I don't talk to their customer. When they help me - the same. We all do better for it. None of us "sub" we're all contractors, we just pull together when one of us needs help from "the team". and we support the principle member of the team for that job - I expect the same with suppliers...Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Thats some good thoughts Jeff . I know youve been around that market .
I was thinking the other day and yesterday as a matter of fact about specialty companies . We have cabinet makers but no "installers " . Seems every one gets in on that act as one of the things they will do.
Fire and water damage actually has several companies around . That might be a suggestion in this thread as well . But probably not if Kitchens and bathrooms are his deal. I actually thought it was odd DaN T did baths and kitchens as we dont have anyone trying to sell them as a specialty.
Fire and water probably would suit me the best if I was looking . Those jobs are pretty big giving you the whole house so its pretty much a full house remodel. Lots of every thing involved instead a little bit of this and that surrounding kitchen cabinets . I do it all but kitchens and baths for live in customers were never to my liking . I dont like them being with out what they want . Id much rather be in a house not lived in.
Tim
"I don't understand why they wouldn't bring install in house anyway. i think they are leaving good money on the table."
The simple answer is: they don't need it.
Remember, they have chosen to specialize in kitchens and baths. All their systems are set up for that. When you take on more than that, it can quickly consume you and drag down the core strengths that your company was built on.
Since I'm in my "Indef" period, meaning that I can't get out of the Army until i can retire.................and when I retire......making a bunch of cash won't be my top priority.
Here's an idea I've always thought would pay off.
In my area, there are a significant number of homes built between 20 and 30 Years old that have worn out builders kitchens.
And, it seems to me that I haven't heard a single customer or installer that didn't complain about how disorganized the install/remodel was.
The emphasis is on the design and sale of Cabinets. Not the quality of the job or finished product.
So I've always thought that;
you could open a small showroom of maybe one or two stock cabinet lines
Have a warehouse where once designed and sold, you assembled ALL of the pieces before you began the install
The Drywall, Electrician, plumber and Painter all worked for you
So did a guy who made the tops.
By controlling all aspects, you can control the time line and the quality.
Maybe that would lead to a solid profit and reputation in the area.
It's an expensive proposition................but you never know until you try.
That is not a bad idea.
I have spent the winter redoing my kitchen, what a mess. I really don't know how guys that do it for a living aren't crazy. The schedules for ordering the product are all over the board, not to mention the granite installers with their crazy 6 week lead time. What's up with that, are they making granite from scratch or what?
I have grown to understand the frustrations of guys that do this work fulltime!!!!
"granite installers with their crazy 6 week lead time."Six weeks?!!
That's nuts! Some folks around here have turned it around in 4 days. The more complicated the longer it takes of course but the average upscale kitchen, let's say one L-shaped lower run, one run of straight lower with sink cutout, and one island with veggie sink cutout, is around 2 weeks.Kitchens can get awful complicated though and you're right , the logistics can be a nightmare. With K & B the devil is in the details.
Six weeks?!!That's nuts>>>>>>>>>>..
I thought so also. I couldn't find a shorter lead time.
six week lead time is a little crazy. there are steps you could take to minimize the wait. select the slab as soon as the cabinet finish is chosen. keep the fabricator updated to your progress
usually the granite guy will template with a couple days notice and the counters should be installed within a week of that
I have seen people install their cabinets then go shopping for granite. thats a huge mistake
I purchased the granite before the cabinets. Amazing as they quoted me 2 week lead time from templating. I thought that was fine. After templating and a call to find out install date, quoted 3-6 weeks. I was not happy, but they had me at that time as my wife had fallen for a piece .
It reminded me to not trust these people!!!!
"
The Drywall, Electrician, plumber and Painter all worked for you
So did a guy who made the tops.
By controlling all aspects, you can control the time line and the quality."
Won't work...can't be done...unless...your workforce is multi skilled....which is impossible.
The reason is simple: the jobs have different time factors and the logistics to keep it all in house and schedule it all would be a nightmare. Then, when you got it all figured out the Electrician would quit and you'd have to re-do the schedules based on a new guy.
Hey,
I actually talked about a similar idea w/ a local K & B sales rep today. They like to refer contractors and are often asked to quote install prices w/ their designs but they don't want to sub out the install. I was confused because they are asked to supply and install the cabinets for developers from residential to apartment complexes yet they don't want to mark up the install and would prefer to package the price together but then hand the labor away. His opinion is that they are making money off the product and aren't interested in incurring the "risk" of an install coming back to haunt them. I was surprised because I generally assume that guys who make money off me want to hire me more than ones who just want to sell their product. Go figure. I guess it isn't the most apparent and maybe that's not a general consensus but that is the conclusion of this particular outfit.
I would be very interested in finding out what you can make work. The angle I've been pushing is to install the kitchens in the showroom. If it happens I think it is a win-win. They can show the work of the guy they refer, it's free advertising, and if I send clients in it would reflect well. Now I just gotta wait for it to happen (might have a shot at it next month).
I can understand the showrooms thinking in not pursuing the total install package. Selling cabs, seems the only risky part in the business is the wrath of the non aligned installer. That and collecting the money of course.
A kitchen remodel is all smiles and dreams till the tearout begins.
I've been lucky in that all the kitchens I've had the pleasure of doing have come off way better than the nitemare stories we've all heard. Not that there weren't roadblocks. Avoiding with good planning isn't always a cakewalk.
Customers tend to get a bit antsy after the first week.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Customers tend to get a bit antsy after the first week.
Oh sure you can start on............my wife will be home, she just had a baby. Oh and don't mind the dog, she's just a LITTLE protective of the new baby.
And grandma will be staying with us to help out mom and oh yeah, sis and her hubby will be dropping by this w/e to see the new baby.
Has anyone seen the case of formula? I left it in the garage on top of someones tablesaw. The one with the Mettalica stickers on it!
Could one of you guys please move that red van so I can get to work? I'm allready 30 minutes behind.................does anyone know when the water will be back on? And how come the lights in the master bath don't work anymore?
hahahahahahaha
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
You know, I shoulda written down some of the things I've heard over the last...............
yikes,
lifetime.
You could fill a book.
a big book.
Include pictures and you'd have to get the volume set.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Cal,
Considering the value of the cabinets people consider purchasing, I can't imagine buying them from a showroom that tells you that they can reommend and installer or remodeler to handle the project. (Although I did installs like that for 5 years)
To me it's like buying a car minus the paint, and they tell you that they can recommend a couple of guys that can do the paint job for you.
So my big question is; given a choice, would a showroom rather deal with ONE contractor that they can call their "own" rather than telling their clients that they can recommend someone.
Contractor makes a house call with the designer once the design is complete and comes up with a price. The showroom gets to sell the package. They are dealing with a known entity in this contractor. He delivers a predictable consistent package.
The showroom I was doing installs for decided to bring it in house the minute HD set foot on the block. They don't do it by referal, they go down the list of subs that they use. Subs prices it up and the showroom sells the package.
I mean HD was sharp enough to see a need or niche.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
I understand what you are saying but what JHole says above has another side of the coin. A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Around here, the trend is towards design/build services, in terms of remodeling. That's how it was with the outfit I worked for.
Low bidding is a huge problem. My boss figured he could successfully price a job without consulting his installer, etc., because they had a system for pricing. The system was c rap. He'd sign contracts before the installer had a chance to protest that it would cost more. Then the installer would submit invoices that actually reflected the cost of doing the job. . . and the boss would, often, have to eat it.
Salespeople seem to love to promise the moon at less than the expected price. . . Insane.
I have a friend that works for a large remodeling com in SoCal. They have full time salesmen and a large showroom. The owner is cutthrout will everyone that works there.
The salesmen are responsible for the total job, no matter who makes the mistake. The commision is paid at the end of the job on what $$$ is left over. Salemen come and go. So do the workers. They get trained and more experienced and the owner will not pay them more, so they leave. The new guy comes in and is expected to do as good as the previous experienced guy and that's where another mightmare starts.
When the salesmen leave , those clients become the owner's possesion and the new salesmen must generate all new leads. No one is happy, but the owner can stored his huge boat in the warehouse space getting in the way of the workers.
I actually worked for a huge company in Socal called EuroDesign as an in-field territory manager/customer service They had the same mentality with sales and the workers. The installers were told they would be paid piecework and the owners would come in and change the piece work count so the installers got paid less. This just to save the sale.
If parts were missing, the installer would have to go back to finish for no extra money. If they didn't, they were back-charged. If the second worker didn't do it correctely, a third worker would finish the install and the first worker was back-charged again. This stuff is not made up....still boggles my mind how employers think that this stuff is acceptable.
I can't tell you how many times I repaired/modified cabinets just so the installer could get his job done and get paid.(I was paid salary, another mistake on my part).
On the company's defense, If the installer didn't do their job correctly, I didn't sign off their job so they got paid until it was correctly done.. Sometimes this pi$$ed off the installer, but I was fair.
The workers in the plant were paid min wage and when they wanted $.25hr raise, the owner told them to take a hike.
I lasted there three months and quit. I told the owner's son that their treatment of workers wasn't ethical and I refused to work for a company like that. Specially when I was told that I had the authority to authorize additional labor payments to the installers and they never received the $$$. Made me look like a lier and I was a cheat for the company. His look on his face was that he could not believe that I would quit because of this.
This just seems to be the mentality of business owners lately. Squeeze the workers till they bleed. There is always someone out there that will do it for less.
I know, it's not like that everywhere, but it seems to the norm lately
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=118818.1
Read this thread.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
I have been following both threads. I kinda posted here when it may have been more apropriate response in the other. not really sure how I posted a reply. Probably has something to do with too many open windows on this laptop.
any who...
I'm so confused
confusing minds want to know.
NO I DON'T, DO I ?
I have a friend who is a custom cabinet maker. He installs his own cabinets to insure quality. Part of his product is doing the dead on install and good work on crown etc.
His typical customer bought/built their house 30yrs ago and installed cheap cabinets because they were struggling to pay for the house. Now the house is paid for and they are at the pinnacle of their earning ability, they treat themselves to top of the line custom cabs.
The customer sees his advertising and contacts him and he does the design work. Because of this initial contact, because he actually ends up on site and other trades ask him questions, the homeowner sees him as sort of the guy in charge.
What he did was refer me to do the work to get ready for the cabinets--tear down soffits and blend ceiling texture, move walls etc. I'd help him install and then get a shot at backsplashes, new trim, doors windows, etc.
It worked very well for both of us. He knew he would be installing on work that was to the right dimensions, plumb and square. I picked up some very good customers and ended up with a lot of "while we're at it we might as well.." work.
The biggest problem is we worked in towns we didn't know the electricians and plumbers. We ended up getting involved with some real yo-yos and the resultant messes. Because my friend was looked at as being in charge, he spent a great deal of time sorting things out while not really being paid for it. That's why I think the kitchen places want to avoid anything to do with the job site.
We ended up splitting up over personal differences not related to the jobs.
As long as he's around and in business, I won't do anything to compete with him, but I've given some though to my own business.
In my opinion, I would like to have the K&B places be a source for me and not the other way around. In other words, I find the job and source out the cabs and design. I'd find an electrician and plumber I could work with.
After a few jobs, I could sell from referals and a portfolio, but it'd be hard to hard to get started.
Good luck what ever you decide Eric.
Tim
I've already posted in this thread, but I'm bumping this, because I have a fascination with K&B remodels after spending a year project managing them.
I think the concept is excellent. I think that what might not be immediately obvious to contractors is just how much of a sales machine a showroom can be. It's a different kind of process than waiting for the phone to ring. A showroom might very possibly attract clients that might not be sold any other way.
The people I worked for sold two dozen kitchens a year with no advertising at all: no brochures, no nothing. My impression was that their coffee sold more kitchens than all their displays put together. Yes, that's right. Every single person who walked through the door got asked whether they wanted coffee. Nearly everyone refused, and everyone got the same response: "Are you sure? It's good coffee." Even if they weren't coffee drinkers, it tended to break the ice.
A showroom affords a natural opportunity for prospective clients to forge a 'relationship'. Every so often we'd have former clients come in to have a cup of coffee and shoot the breeze. Can't beat that for word of mouth.
A showroom also allows one to market to the slightly-interested. They attract window shoppers who might, at a later time, be serious prospects. Tire-kickers are welcome! (well, sort of)
I'd think that letting a showroom do the heavy lifting of selling jobs is almost certainly the most efficient method - even if you get real good at selling.
"
I'd think that letting a showroom do the heavy lifting of selling jobs is almost certainly the most efficient method - even if you get real good at selling."
I've known of more than a few showroom operators going broke because of the added overhead.
Ok. Then I'd say, with respect to Eric's idea, that he should let the showroom do the selling for him *and* go broke.
I think alot of that happens when someone has something nice and basic ... that's working ... and all of a sudden they decide they have to get fancy.
Subbing for alot of different kitchen showrooms ... I've also been asked to change displays in alot of kitchen showrooms. I've torn out perfectly good displays just so they could change things up ...
I think they tend to forget the customers aren't the ones coming in every day and spending their day looking at the same old displays.
I've noted that's a sign of a showroom that's about a year and a half from going under! Spending money they don't really have in order to bring in new money they'll never get.
If you're selling basic kitchens ... all you need is a basic display.
That said ... I'd only have a store front that provided rental income at the same time.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa