Hello Everyone, I am a woodworking beginner and was encouraged to post questions here by people on the KNOTS forum, so any/all help is very welcome!
Quick Background: This project involves putting up Craftsman-style window & door trim throughout a house. On some larger windows we are planning on building up a header piece from 3 separate pieces of wood (from bottom to top): 1) a 3/8″, rounded piece of 5/4″ stock that will sit directly on the side trim pieces (the “filletâ€); 2) a 4 1/2″ wide piece of 1X (3/4″) on top of that (the “friezeâ€); and 3) a piece of 1 1/4″ wide, 5/4″ stock on the top (“capâ€). The fillet and cap of 5/4 will be slightly longer than the frieze (i.e., will overhang the center piece on each end – similar to what I believe is called a “cabinet headâ€), and what was featured in a June/July article on “Craftsman Casingâ€. The trim material will be stained, VG Douglas Fir.
What I THINK I know already:<!—-><!—-> <!—->
I posted a few questions on the KNOTS forum (how I got here) and consensus seems to be: 1) to pre-stain the wood before putting up; and 2) to assemble the 3-piece header for windows with nails & molding/trim glue (I found a good deal on a Bostich compressor, 16 gauge finish nailer, and 18 gauge brad nailer…seems like the finish nailer is used to put the trim up and the brad nailer to assemble the 3-piece headers – ?).
Stuff I’m Still Confused About:<!—-><!—->
1) How to deal with window jams and sheetrock that are not flush. If the jam is proud of the rock, is the best way to use a block plane to plane the jam flush, or would a belt sander work better (or other tool)? When the sheetrock is proud of the jam, I’ve seen one article where the solution was to score the sheetrock then beat it in with a hammer. I’m OK doing this but it still seems like you have to have the outer edge of the trim contacting good sheetrock, which may still be proud of the jam. The other way would seem to be building up the jam with shims of some sort, but I’m not sure how this would be done (e.g., material, how to cut?). Could sure use some help here!
2) There are a few windows where the side jams themselves are bowed (inward in the middle), so that a straight piece of side trim would result in an uneven reveal. Could/should I use screws through the jams into the trimmers to pull the jams plum? The screws would be somewhat visible even after staining, but not as bad as an uneven reveal. How best to deal with this?
3) The whole issue of scribing pieces to fit. I bought got a book on trim carpentry and they have an example of scribing a window stool. I THINK I understand this, but on the KNOTS forum I was cautioned that the pre-assembled 3-piece header of Doug Fir would not flex like thinner trim, and that it may be better to scribe the individual components first (Brad you still out there?). I also saw another comment where someone said he knows carpenters who scribe everything. I guess I’m still not sure about the whole issue of scribing, in particular if you were scribing a 4 ½â€ piece of header that sat flat against the wall. Would you need a planer to cut something like that (I don’t have), or a belt sander (I do) or a band saw (I do)?? Any advice or references on scribing would be a GREAT help!
That’s all for now…I’m sure there will be more!
Thanks in advance for your help!
Derek
Replies
I think it's much easier to stain and apply a coat of finish before installation. You can use a color putty to fill nail holes and apply additional coats of the finish as you see fit. It gives a finished appearance when up, there is no cutting in of stain which can be very difficult. The trim is protected from fingerprints or other stains and dust.
I prefer to figure the length of the headcasings and make them up. Very often the sill is the same length, the overhang on the ears matches the overhang on the head.
With a headcasing, the side casings don't have to be as flat as a mitered casing. Most casings are slightly hollowed out on back. This allows the casing to, sort of, step over and compensate for small differences in the flushness of the jamb and drywall. A flat back casing is another story. A low angle block plane is a lot easier and less messy than a belt sander, which could easily cut into the drywall. You have to be careful that you keep the edge straight and not dish it. It often helps to either mush or bevel cut the sharp edge of the drywall if it's a little proud. We're not talking about 1/4 inches here. In most cases, an 1/8" isn't much of a problem and may not need any work.
There are a lot of different window constructions. On some, there are strings, counterbalances or some other mechanism in the jambs. You can't just drive a screw in there unless you know what is back there. Most times, someone has stuffed insulation in the jamb/jack space, too tightly. This often causes the jamb to bow in. Remove the insulation and do it correctly. When you nail the casing, you can just push the jamb so the reveal is equal. Nail the top, the bottom, then move the middle.
I have some pictures of a trim sequence for a headcased window. This one required an extension jamb. Unless you are in a remodeling situation, where there is a significant variation from jamb to drywall, I don't scribe much more than the sill, so the ears fit tight to the wall and the window. You can use dividers, like in the pic, or just measure.
I trim houses for a living. I don't get to take my time. I try to keep it simple and repeatable. The more you whittle on things, the more it shows, instead of being clean and neat. All windows that are the same size should take the same size head, sill, etc. With new construction, and people that know what they are doing, there isn't much need for scribing in things. I have done some gawd awful remodels where you need your thinking cap on, though. In these cases you may need to rip out strips that either go on the jamb or flush with the edge of the casings. Typically you use the same species. You may have to rip 1/4" thick strips, for example. You can keep them flush or stepped out for a secondary reveal. Sometimes, these may have to taper. Hopefully your job isn't that bad.
hammer1 has a lot of good information:“With a headcasing, the side casings don't have to be as flat as a mitered casing.” To elaborate on that, most of the elements in this trim style have a purpose other than just looks: That “fillet,” or parting bead, creates a thickness differential so that the side casings can tip just a bit, and still look fine. Any discrepancy is downplayed by the reveal.Reveals are wonderful, and you’ll use them all the time: you hold the side casings back from the edge of the jamb 1/8” or so, and who cares if that 1/8” turns into 5/32” at the bottom?Likewise with your head trim length. Don’t agonize over whether or not it’s perfect: ”The fillet and cap of 5/4 will be slightly longer than the frieze (i.e., will overhang the center piece on each end...)“ That’s your reveal at work, making you look good.“...assemble the 3-piece header for windows with nails & molding/trim glue...” Nope.Don’t glue the parting bead to the flat stock -- if there’s a slight error and your side casing-to head angle is off a hair, leaving a slight gap in the joint, you can drive a brad down through the parting bead into the side casing to tighten things up. Now you’ll have to stand on a chair to see that gap, which you just moved to the top edge of the bead.All you have to glue on the heads are the return miters, if they are ogee-style pieces. But it sounds like you are using flat stock, so just cut it square. Once again don’t agonize over the length -- split the distance so that both reveals are about equal.On the doors, you’ll use 5/4 plinth blocks to give you your reveal, and don’t forget the 1”-square corner blocks for the base (in the corners of the room), so that you don’t have to cope 10”-high base. Make them an inch or so taller than the base, and cut the tops at 45º on the two outside faces.Good Luck!AitchKay
AitchKay & Hammer1...thanks a lot for your comments!
AitchKay, just to clarify your comment about not gluing the 3-piece header to allow for fixing a gap between the side and head casings (driving a brad thru the parting bead into the side casing)... does this mean you would not pre-assemble the 3-piece header, or would just not glue the parting bead to the "frieze" above it?
Thanks again to both of you...I'm going to start with a small window in a laundry room to make my initial mistakes where it won't be so noticeable!
derekw
Edited 1/23/2009 10:44 am ET by derekw
No, I'd pre-assemble, too. It's easier to even up the end overhangs, and all that, when you're working on a bench.But I've read articles and posts that sometimes go over the top: using biscuits between plinth blocks and side casings, for instance.I just don't understand that.Plinth-block-type reveal details came to be because they solve most of your problems by themselves. So trust them, and let them do their job.I'm all for biscuits, Clam Clamps, etc, whatever it takes, when I have to do miters, which I try to avoid whenever possible.Looks like you've got a fun job ahead of you, and I'm sure you'll enjoy yourself and end up with a finished product that you'll be proud of.One last tip from a pro: you know that spot where you kind of goofed up over there? Don't tell anyone, because no one looks at your work more critically than you. If my partner or I have a detail we're worried about, we ask the other guy to come over and look at something, but we won't say what. Usually, the other guy gives up after a while, and you have to point it out. "Oh, that. Nobody's going to notice that."So do your best, and be sure to give yourself a break.AitchKay
Thanks a lot, AitchKay. Good advice....esp. about avoiding the ulcers! I might even be able to get started now!
If you don't mind fielding one more very basic question....
I was looking at the window framing and how I will attach the stools (sills?). I'm using 5/4 lumber which seems to be typical from what I've read, but the space between the bottom of the side jambs and the rough sill framing is greater than the 5/4 lumber...i.e., I'll have to shim the stool up with something to meet the bottom of the side jambs. Seems like a stupid question but what would you use to do this...regular wedge-shaped wood shims (arranged one on top of another so the stool remains level)?...small pieces of wood ripped to the right thickness? I think I even heard someone reference popsicle sticks!
Any advice here appreciated as always...
derekw
If you haven't already, you might check out the article on Craftsman casing that ran in the magazine recently:http://store.taunton.com/onlinestore/item/fine-homebuilding-196-june-july-2008-fhb080701.html'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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Thx FatRoman...yes, I'm in the process of absorbing everything in that article!
derekw
derekw,Here is a link to how I trimed some windows.
I milled some 3/8" beaded stop that covers the jamb and edge of the 1x5 casing.http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=79773.350 Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
stevent1....thanks for the link....absolutely gorgeous! If I come 1/10 of the way to what you did I'll be happy!
derekw
Sounds good to me.
Normally, the frame of the window itself consists of four pieces, one of which is an angled sill piece that is an integral part of the window, permanently holding the jambs at the proper distance apart.
And also, normally, the stool has a rabbet in its back bottom edge, which is cut at an angle to sit tight to the angled sill, while still sitting level in place.
But with extra-deep walls, the window unit sits to the outside, and requires extension jambs, as in hammer1’s pics. Are what you are calling side jambs actually extension jambs? Sounds like they are.
If so, sometimes we build a box consisting of three extension jambs and the stool, all screwed together into one unit. But you don’t have to do that.
And yeah, whatever it takes for shimming:
Visit a craft store, and buy a bag of, yes, popsicle sticks. Also tongue depressors (a little thinner than popsicle sticks, and often available in two or three sizes). And don’t forget to buy yourself a double-cap while you’re out, and grab a few wooden coffee-stirrers, too.
Note that, in hammer1’s pics, the stool is actually longer than the head casing. That’s because the stool extends past the side casings by the same amount that it sticks out in front of them. Which, with a nice, deep stool, is larger than the reveals you use up top.
AitchKay
Thanks AitchKay,
The windows in this house do not have angled sills, so fortunately no rabbiting is needed for the stools.
And yes, I think what I have been referring to "side jambs" are actually extension jambs, like those hammer1 shows in his pics. This house is in NW Maine and the exterior walls are 2x6 framing (at least they better be...minus 13 tonight). One reason I had things confused is that those extension jambs appear to be an integral part of the Marvin windows (i.e., not added by the builder afterward)...I guess you can order windows with extension jambs already attached.
Anyway, thanks for all your help. Will post a few pics (maybe!) when we get some things finished.
derekw