I’m looking to purchase a new shaper for my small cabinet shop. What brand and model would be a good investment?
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Replies
best give knots a try for this one, sometimes the best shaper is just a really big dedicated router table .. not to many co's stock shaper cutters in this neck of the woods. That said I have a laguna combo machine, the best part of which is the sliding table ..
Jeffj
Most shapers are nowdays made in Tiawan including such "american" names as Delta
Grizzly has been around for a long time. They sell equipment without the usual middleman mark up.. Thus their prices may be 1/3rd lower.
Their equipment has proven to be extremely tough and durable for me.. I started out with Delta but had so much trouble I switched to Grizzly for all my equipment..
I've gone through over 40,000 boardfeet of hardwood thus far and the only repair has been one $5.00 drive belt my local NAPA parts dealer had in stock!
Every single piece has come out of the box ready to work (one exception when the truckuing company smashed it in transit, I called Grizzly and they overnight airfieghted all smashed parts. I had them in my hands the next morning. No forms! No claims, just what parts are required? IN addition they offered to send a replacement if the unit couldn't be repaired to my satisfaction!
I had it together and working 45 minutes after the parts arrived.
I earlier had a Jet shaper and it wasn't very impressive.. when I switched to Grizzly I only had to pay $750 (today that same shaper is $895) 3 hp, three spndles, 1/2 3/4 inch and 1 inch
I hate green paint yet I love my green Grizzly's (oh and their cutter prices are also modestly priced!)
http://www.grizzly.com
Frenchy,
I've heard your enthusiam for Grizzly equipment several times here. Do you also own a Grizzly joiner and planer?
Someday soon I hope to get a real planer and joiner and would be curious to hear you experiences if you've got them. (Which I think you do from previous posts, if my memory serves me.)
Thanks alot.
fingers,
Yes I do! an 8 inch jointer and a 20 inch planer.. both Grizzly
The planer is the one I had the drive belt failure with.. It could be from pushing those monster beams through.. (up to 24 feet long and 6"x12" white oak) which would occasionally get stuck due to less than perfection when sawn. (they varied in thickness in excess of 1/2 inch) If it got wedged in while I was on the back side away from the feed switch it would just grunt away untill I could shut it off. Killed one of three drive belts. still worked but it was so easy to fix I did it before going on.. but that was about 20,000 bd.ft ago so clearly I didn't need to replace all three<grin>
Normal 1 inch boards were never a problem even the 20 foot long ones..
You can see some of the pictures of those beams when installed. go to 85891.1 & 94941.1 in the advanced search function over on the upper left once out of this screw..
If I had the buck$ and was buying a shaper, I'd get a Powermatic.
Next choice would probably be a Grizzly. One thing about the imports, like Grizzly, Jet, Delta, etc., is that their ground and finished table castings are not always true, so if you want a really flat surface and a machinists straight-edge reveals some warp, you can do like one of my anal fine woodworking friends does and spend a few hours with a machined steel block wrapped with 600 grit wet-and-dry paper and "tune" it up.
Powermatic castings have much finer grade surface than the competition and the castings are given a great deal more attention to cooling and annealing in manufacture. The the machining is done on a much more stable piece of iron. (I'm speaking about their professional line...they also offer some imported stuff, but I know little about it).
I will say, like another poster, the Grizzly customer service is terrific and their pricing is pretty tolerable.
Another option is to look for a high quality used machine through one of a number of used woodworking machinery dealers or ebay.
Before I wrote this reply, I did a quick Google on Shapers and found one site claiming vibration problems with Powermatic, but that has certainly not been my experience with any Powermatic products.
Not knowing your intended application, you might also look into overhead routers which, for some tasks, have some additional versatility. On edit: Congratulations on your first post after all these years of lurking! :-)
I am an Animal
Edited 5/7/2008 12:12 pm by Notchman
SCMI makes the best, hands down.
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Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
All but one puppies in happy homes..just one to go..whew!
Edited 5/7/2008 6:42 pm ET by Sphere
WE had one in the co-op wood shop I was in. Xpensive but you're right....hands down the best.
I just milled up several hundred board ft of oak for some baseboard and casing usage. I ran it through a router table with the Dewalt 625 and a good raised panel bit for the casing. It was a real challenge. I got a cutter for my Delta shaper, and the difference is amazing. I will not be going back to the router table with THIS project anyway. It will all get done on the shaper. BTW, when I was trying to buy my shaper back in the 90's there wasnt one to be found in the country. Everyone was retooling at that point. I finally found one stuck away at woodworker supply in Az. I've been happy with ever since.
"The nearest thing to eternal life we will ever see on this earth is a governmental program" -Ronald Reagan
untreatedwood,
Did you get one of the last of the US made Delta shapers? People are surprised that Delta makes their shaper in the same place Grizzly, Jet and others do today..
One more question, how much longer do your shaper cutters remain sharp compared to router bits?
Yes, I did, I think!! I bought it in 1993 or 94. I don't remember the model number, but it is not being sold these days. It is considered a medium duty tool. It has legs like the contractors saw.
Blades stay sharper longer, but I think I can get better quality shaper cutters than I can router bits. I have the Freud raised panel cutter kit, but I started buying cutters at blades llc. on the web. Very high quality cutters and they stay sharp longer than the freud blades. I've been using it more recently since I have been doing a lot of my own moulding. If you are really interested, I'll get the model number and send it to you..."The nearest thing to eternal life we will ever see on this earth is a governmental program" -Ronald Reagan
untreatedwood,
No I just am glad to hear that some of the stuff we used to build so well was great machinery.
I keep seeing numbers where Americans meet or beat the productivity of every other nation and I hear how Foriegn companies can come here and use our labor and build products on par or superior to their own country.
Kind of puts to rest that it's labors fault that America is losing jobs..
"Kind of puts to rest that it's labors fault that America is losing jobs.."It is labors fault in so much that Americans demand higher wages than most other countries do because of the higher costs of living.
reivent,
Let's start with you,, how much are you willing to reduce your income by?
OK unfair question..
How about the real problem. Management In America is massively more expensive than management in the rest of the world..
You complain about some assembly line worker wants tyo make a living wage when the management can be earning thousands of times more than the floor workers..
IN Europe its at most 17 times in Japan it's rare to go over 12 times.. In China it's typically less than 4 times..
IN addition the compensation package total for senior management is so far out of sight of the rest of the world there is simply no comparison.. private Jets, company apratments in New York and other spots is considered normal.
Golden parachutes and buy out clauses. means that anyone who attains senior management recieves massive compensation regardless of the performance of the company under their administration..
Frenchy, I'm with you on that. American workers have been taught to blame themselves for America's production problems; yet when I was a young man and our workers made a much better wage, our productivity was the envy of the world.
Quality was always a management problem, and it always will be, no matter what country produces the goods.
The American middle class has been gutted. It is not a crime to expect to have a decent life if you are willing to reliably put in 40 hours a week. As partially rational creatures, many of us stand up for the positions that are against our own self-interest.
Jobs have purposely been dumbed down not to make workers more competitive with foreign workers, but to channel more of the profits to those who do nothing. When you dumb down a job, it is easy to replace workers and training is minimal. Thus you end up with someone who knows he or she can be replaced easily. The worker becomes more compliant and willing to do the stupid and the dangerous with less and less benefits. This is no way to raise a family.
Sorry for the hijack, everyone.
My main power machines that I continue to use and abuse are:
Delta Contractor's saw bought in 1993;
Delta 8" jointer bought in 1998;
Delta 43-335 shaper bought in 1999. ( I can't even find USED versions of this!!)
They work just as well as the day I got them. Couldnt be happier with them. Nothing wrong with American labor in my opinion.
"The nearest thing to eternal life we will ever see on this earth is a governmental program" -Ronald Reagan
When I was in business with my cabinet shop I used a shop built very beefy router table.(on wheels) I found router bits to be far less in price that shaper bits. However if I were plush with cash I would opt for a shaper. And I would invest in a system to grind my own shaper profiles. An old cabinetmaker friend of mine ground his own. He sharpened his own too. His were HS steel. I used to lap my router bits on diamond sharpening slab. Sometimes i sent them out to be sharpened.
You can spend a lot of money on a shaper. Find out what you want to spend and go shopping. Most are pretty good and price will dictate what you can buy.
Larry,
Router bits spinning at up to 18,000 rpm simply cannot remain sharp as long as shaper cutters do spinning at as low as 3600 RPM.
Price wise I use Grizzly cutters and have yet to need to resharpen any of the many I use compared to several resharpenings I've been forced to do on my router bits.. Router bits start out around $11.00 while shaper cutters start out around $22.00
More to the point, style and rail cutters are around $60.00 while the same Shaper bits are $55.00
$5.00 more ? for something that needs less sharpening,, is much much quieter?
Then there is the whole issue of spinning a 3 1/2 inch shaper bit at the high rpm required to get the power needed is scary..
Most routers aren't able to single pass really large stock removal while single pass cutting is normal with shapers.. every pass increases the risk of trouble..
But you forgot to add that you pay up to 3500 bucks for a shaper. plus 300 bucks for a feeder. My operation couldn't pony up that much. But I did much better by outsourcing millwork. Cabinet door and drawer front mfg. did a better job than most small cabinet shops do. Actually I made more money outsourcing than I did making my own. Anymore a lot of cabinet shops outsource and it very cost effective. I could usually get a 2 and a half week turn around. I would just make the boxes.
larry,
$3500? what is it gold plated?
My 3 hp shaper, brand new from Grizzly cost me $750. I think the price is now up to $850.00 and if you don't have a power feeder on a router table then you don't have one on a shaper!
OK if you want to outsource your work fine.. depending on some variables that can work..
Not in my case though! Not in a lot of peoples case..
Read my lips. I said up to 3500 bucks. An industrial unit for 3500 would be cheap. Like SCMI or of that quality. At a trade show I priced one set up for door making with a power feeder and all the knives at just under 8 grand. That would have done about 6-8 profiles. A glue drying rack was another 500. Then a 6 station, one man assembly setup would have been 4000. This all would have required more shop space. Thats just more money. True you could make a door about every 15 minutes.
I did much better with outsourcing. Like several other cabinet shops I knew of. In, out and done speed makes more $$$$... And I like $$$$. And besides my cabinets were all wood high quality. At most I had just 2 people working for me. Mostly it was just me. 75% of my work was commercial. So I didn't need a door maker setup. Just an edgebander.
Edited 5/8/2008 8:20 pm ET by larryscabnuts
LOL... Its the lineal feet of cutting and not the speed of the cutter that dulls router bits and shaper knives.
The Best Brand.
That is Martin Machinery without question.
http://www.martinmachinery.co.uk/martin_shaping.html
SCMI are good but it is like comparing a Nissan Maxima to a Mercedes S class sedan.
That said I think it will be WAAAY out of your budget. Look at a used SCMI or similar. Whatever you get make sure it uses a 1 1/4" spindle. A shaper that only uses a 3/4" spindle is a glorified router table. The 1 1/4" spindle is an industry standard and their are waaay more cutter heads available for that size.
Ditto to Martin, hands down some of the best equipment anywhere and a superb shaper....also agree with the comparison of SCMI and Martin to cars, SCMI is competent, but there are much better machines out there. The European machines are in general much better designed and more evolved than North American machines. If I was going to buy a NA machine....General without a doubt. We have a General and a Delta.
Best value maybe....not glamorous, but look at Cantek. Asian made, but head and shoulders over the Grizzly class stuff. The Cantek equipment is rated for heavy industrial use, sold to pro shops not hobbyists, and I see their shapers in heavy use all over the place. Not a lot of frills, but they deliver. We have a 24" double planer, and it is a well built, dependable machine.....more and more smaller shops are getting into those also. Have a look.... http://www.cantekamerica.com
Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
Jeff,
I resisted getting a shaper until last fall when I broke down and bought a Powermatic PM 2700 with a power feeder. It wasn't cheap, but I'm kicking myself for waiting so long to buy the thing. I'll never go back to the router table for my doors. About the only thing I run on the table is moldings.
I had heard that PM had trouble with vibration, but you could not tell it by me. I also heard that spindle changes were tough, but again you couldn't tell it by me. I change the spindle in about 2-3 minutes. I really like the digital readout on the machine and the built in casters.
The only downside is that you really need a good sized dust collector to handle this machine. It has two 4" ports and really makes the shavings.
If you can afford it, I would go with the Powermatic. Good luck picking one out.
Steve
I have a Jet shaper, and am not that impressed.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
Of all the used woodworking machines I come by or see on CL - shapers seem to sell for the least.Keep your eyes out for an auction or Cl, I've seen the $800 machines go for $3-400 easy.Regards,Julian
nickNukeEm
what HP is your Jet shaper? I had one that was 1 1/2 Hp and it was more like a router table than a shaper..
I switched and bought a Grizzly 3 hp and it's night and day!
It is the 1.5hp, but it's not the power that I'm disappointed with; the belt pulley tends to slip, changing cutters often requires the whole guard/fence assembly be removed, the split fence needs to be shimmed for every operation, etc., etc.
It was a gift from my wife for a birthday some years ago, so I shouldn't complain, (oh yeah, I can't use 5" dia panel raisers because the opening is too small) but I find myself using the router table just because it's easier to set up.
Cest le vie.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
the router table was abandoned years ago
I have two 3 hp delta shapers, one with a stock feeder. they're pretty reliable machines. I like the fence set up that allows me to dial in the cutting depth to within one thousanth of an inch.
in hindsight I would get one of them in a 5 hp to speed up panel raising
I do a lot of cope and stick so that means a good feeder is indespensable. I bought a cheap delta stock feeder, so far I'm a little dissapointed. the day it quits I'll replace with a top quality one. dont make the same mistake.
There is a company called Aigner that makes a bunch of safety devices for woodworking. They have device in particular that is great for coping. Worth its weight, I use it a lot. It is on page 70-71 of the pdf. It is a large download (17.6 MB) because it is their whole catalog. Other stuff worth looking at too.http://www.martin-usa.com/cms/_main/fileadmin/inhalte/martin/PDF_Dokumente/Aigner/catalogue_AIGNER.pdf
What kind of budget do you have and what kind of cutters do you need/want to run?
I found an unusually high number of shapers listed on Craigs LIst over the weekend. There were some excellent choices, in fact. If you are in the area, (New Jersey) you might want to take a closer look if you haven't made the plunge, yet. good luck.
"The nearest thing to eternal life we will ever see on this earth is a governmental program" -Ronald Reagan