Replies

1. 
   Guest_ | Jan 17, 2000 08:43pm | #1

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   If I was setting the tile using thinbed techniques I would use Durock, 1/2" underlayment. I've used Dens-Sheild and dont like it. Sure its easy to cut; the fact it comes in 4x8 sheets doesnt excite me too much because I work solo most of the time, and what happens to the core once it gets wet? Anyone checked? I have no experience with Hardibacker so I cant comment on that. I have never used Wonderboard but believe it is just a take off on Durock.

   Dave

2. 
   Sawdust99 | Jan 18, 2000 04:10am | #2

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   John,

   I've used Wonderboard and Hardibacker. I switched to using Hardibacker because of smoother material and more uniform sheets. Hardibacker also gives you the option of screwing or nailing with galvanized roofing nails. It also cuts more uniform and is easier to cut small pieces to fill gaps. Both require a mortared down application and mesh tape the seams. The wonderboard seemed to crack and crumble quit easily.

   I don't know if there is really any better advantages than personal preference. The pricing here runs about the same per 3x5 sheet. I also like the 1/4" sheets of hardibacker for many applications, since it lessens the overall height when finished.

   I did a neat trick with a bathroom floor recently where I cut away the last 4" of drywall (horizontally, marked a line on level w/ floor). I then attached 1/4" hardibacker to the joists, backed with felt. I cut the 8x8 floor tiles in half, and backbuttered them and and attached them to the wall as a "recessed" cove base, lined up with the tiles on the floor. The effect left the tiles sticking out from the finished plastered wall about a 1/8". I ran a thin line of caulk along the top and bottom of the cove and it came out beautiful. Much better than a base board, or crappy vinyl base. And any extra floor space was much appreciated in this small 5x10 bathroom.

   Sorry to get so wordy. My 8 years experience with the stuff says: Hardibacker over wonderboard. Best of luck with the remodel.

3. 
   Guest_ | Jan 18, 2000 06:11am | #3

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   Creature,
   Dens sheild does come in the smaller 3x5 sheets. from what I know the core holds up fine. I've had over 300ft under a ceramic floor in my kitchen, bath & laundry for 4 years & it's holding up great. Not only that but I am just getting to finishing the stairs where the edge has been exposed the entire time. In this location it takes a lot of abuse. this is a cut edge that has not been crumbling. I never intended to test it this way. the contractors home always gets finished last. What didn't you like about the dens sheild besides the size?

   John, MY answer is obviusly Dens Sheild.

1. 
   Guest_ | Jan 18, 2000 08:20am | #4

   *Hi John D,They all work fine when installed to factory specs in suitable applications. I've installed and tiled over plenty of both wonderboard, durock, amd hardibacker. Thickness of total system is important were it mates with adjacent floors. Setting the substrate in thinset is usually part of the program and very important. A common rookie mistake is to cut the material for a tight fit. A loose fit, with the resulting gaps filled with thinset that is allowed to dry before the tile is set is correct.joe dPS love the almost recessed tile base idea Sawdust.

1. 
   Guest_ | Jan 19, 2000 12:33am | #5

   *What will happen if you don't put thinset under the hardibacker (1/4") screwed to OSB subfloor?

4. 
   s_crawford | Jan 19, 2000 01:46am | #6

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   Creature

   I wouldn't feel comfortable using Dens-Shield under a tile shower floor but what are your feelings on vertical applications like a shower wall. Or a hot tub deck that doesn't recieve much moisture.

5. 
   Guest_ | Jan 19, 2000 07:48am | #7

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   The only thing I use in my showers are mortar beds with a CPE membrane. I think that Dens-Sheild is OK for walls. And proabably tub decks as well. Maybe Im just too much of a traditionalist.

   Have any of you done a tile repair on Dens-Shield? It's real easy because all you have to do is cut the grout away then cut the paper surface with a utility knife and the piece of tile comes right up. Now, can you put a new piece of tile directly over the core? And is it still suitable for a wet area such as a bathroom floor? I dont know. I'd like to try Hardibacker; no one stocks it in my area that I know of, but if given the choice of Dens over Durock, I'm sticking with the Durock. I guess just personal preference.

   Dave

6. 
   s_crawford | Jan 19, 2000 08:02am | #8

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   Dave

   I'm a GC /my own frame carpenter,/ trim carpenter not a tile setter but the research I've done on Dens-Shield states that the resin paper membrane on the surface is the moisture barrier. Once that is comprimised I wouldn't think it would be to good on the bathroom floor. I appreciate your response to my post about certain applications for D-S. I've been pondering that for a while. Thanks S Crawford

1. 
   Drew_Kirk | Jan 19, 2000 08:55am | #9

   *John, you didn't mention what the joist spacing is under the 1x planks, or whether the floor is good and rigid. Everything I have read on Breaktime and elsewhere suggests that adding backerboard (Wonderboard, DuRock, whatever) to a floor will not increase its rigidity. Thus the recommendation to have floor joists spaced at 16" o/c maximum. Even then I would question the rigidity of a plank subfloor. You may need to back up a step and re-sheathe that floor. Just a thought.

1. 
   JohnK | Jan 19, 2000 06:58pm | #10

   *John,I did exactly what you're suggesting in my kitchen. 1/2" Durock over 3/4" planks on angle. I screwed the planks down, then PL-400 and screws thru the Durock, 12" tile in thin-set. It's been a little over a year and there are some small cracks in the grout in 1 area. You really can't see them unless you get down on your knees, but if I had it to do over I would cut out the planks and put down plywood first. Good Luck, John

1. 
   Sawdust99 | Jan 20, 2000 12:29am | #11

   *Tina, I believe the reason for attaching the backerboard with thinset on the underside as well as w/screws, is so that the backer will bond tight to the subfloor. The result of not bonding it to the subfloor may result in the backing "lifting" or moving (such as a traffic pattern may cause, or from settling). The visual result would be cracks in the grout, tile or both. (This is also the reason I prefer screws, because nails can pop up, cracking tiles.) As my dear ol' dad always said: "Glue it and screw it!"

7. 
   Guest_ | Jan 23, 2000 09:26pm | #12

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   Sawdust -- thanks for info. As you probably could have guessed, the deed is already done. But backerboard was screwed...and screwed...and screwed. So we'll just have to wait and see as the years go by. Tile is being set now, will be grouted this week. Tina

8. 
   Matt_Putnam2 | Jan 27, 2000 12:18am | #13

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   Question on Sawdust's tile as base moulding application.

   We are building a new home and planned on using the floor tile as the base moulding in the bathrooms. I like your method - sounds like it will finish out nicer as well as save some $$ in not buying bull-nose tile.

   2 questions:
   1. What is the purpose of the felt behind the subsurface?
   2. Did you do anything to "finish" the bottom edge of the sheetrock? I have heard that no sheetrock edges should be left unfinished - whether with tape or corner bead, etc.

   thanks for your time

1. 
   WIDEGLIDE | Jan 31, 2000 04:45pm | #14

   *FYI. FOR ANYONES FUTURE INFORMATION. HARDIBACKER IS A SUPERIOR PRODUCT WITH 10 TIMES THE LOAD CAPACITY THAN WONDERBOARD,THIS IS COMPARING 1/4"HB TO 1/2"WB. IT IS MADE OUT OF A FIBER ONLY FOUND IN NEW ZEALAND AND IS COMPLETELY WATERPROOF.(YOU CAN ACTUALLY SOAK THIS IN WATER FOR YEARS AND IT WILL NOT ABSORB ANY WATER) GREAT FOR BATHROOM APPLICATIONS.1/4" IS ALSO GOOD FOR C-TOPS,IT WILL BOND TO FORMICA.1/4" IS FOR FLOORS AND 1/2"FOR WALLS.THIS PRODUCT SINCE SO DENSE CAN BE TOUGH TO CUT BUT IF YOU HAVE ALOT TO DO GET THEIR SPECIAL KNIFE AT TILE SUPPLIERS.AS TO WHERE TO BUY,AROUND HERE YOU CAN GET AT HOME DEPOT - BE CAREFUL THEY ARE GOING TO CHANGE THEIR FORMULA TO BE EASIER TO CUT FOR THE HOME OWNER-OR YOU CAN GO TO ANY TILE WHOLESALER. DAL-TILE FOR EXAMPLE-NATIONWIDE.

1. 
   Steve_Coleman_of_Crofton | Feb 01, 2000 03:18am | #15

   *Are you saying that a 1/4" HB is more ridgid than a 1/2" WB or DR? I am tearing up my kitchen floor and the Luan subfloor which is squeeking like crazy in two spots. I will be screwing down the 32/36 existing subfloor before installing any type of cement board and the ceiling below is finished. I want to make sure nothing moves when I put down ceramic tiles or skip it entirely and put down sheet. The tile shop says 1/4" is ridgid enough but I want to hear from experience.Thanks

1. 
   Sawdust99 | Feb 01, 2000 06:59am | #17

   *Matt, I used a metal "J" trim for drywall that slips against the cut or exposed edge. In my case, the tile set out a bit from the drywall, and the drywall received a real plaster (USG) finish, not mudded. I also caulked the 1/4" gap with a acrylic/silicone (Polyseamseal). It was a last minute thought that saved me $$ and some time. Also - there was no cove tile available, so it is a real plus.The purpose of felt is to prevent any moisture from rotting the studs, in case of an overflow, etc. Apparently not necessary, if you read the following message, but I get kinda anal on the prep and details... good luck on your house. Lotsa fun ahead! My next bath is getting a wainscotting using 1/4" oak ply, picture framed to match the cabinets. It's a master bath, so needs to be a bit fancier.

9. 
   John_Daughety | Feb 01, 2000 06:59am | #16

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   I am laying tile on the floor of a remodeled bathroom, and I plan to lay 1/2" concrete backer board over the 3/4" plank subfloor as the base for the tile. I have seen several products, for example hardibacker and wonderboard, and I want to pick the one that will provide the most stable base for this floor. I would love to hear from anyone who has had experience with any of these products.