I’m finally getting around to replacing the deck on my own house.
I’ve been living in the world of pressure treated pine as a deck material for as long as I can remember, but two new materials seem to be popular in my area: Brazilian hardwood (“Ipe’) and various types of composites. The Brazilian is expensive but gives a nice finished look. The composites are durable but I’ve read they get hot in the direct sun, and here it Hotlanta, that could be a problem.
Should I stick with PT or move up to something new? Any tips from installers?
Recommendations appreciated.
Replies
ATL,
You didn't say if you are planning to do this work yourself or if you are having the work done so some of this may not impact your decision, but her is my $.02.
PT lumber is on the low end, if not the bottom. It usually has plenty of knots, and will shrink,bow, warp, and twist. It can be difficult to put together a quality product and inside of a year, I don't think it looks very good. But PT lumber has to be the most cost effective surface you can put on a deck.
Composites cover a wide range, with numerous mfg's each touting their products to be the best. (I am always skeptical of new products when they first come out since there is no track record on performance).
I have seen several problems with composites from different mfg's including; large swings in expansion/contraction that resulted in breaking fasteners, loosening of fasteners that caused the deck to squeak and creak when walked on, and a propensity to attract dirt and/or support the growth of mold. Having worked with these products they are also very heavy compared to their wood counterparts, making them harder to install. Advantages seem to be lower maintenance (i.e. no periodic staining, and a resistance to rot).
IPE, in my opinion,makes for a very nice looking deck surface. It's naturally rot and insect resistant and does not require sealing or staining, however I think that a coat of penofin oil (or similar) significantly improves the look.
It is a very dense wood so working with it is a bit of a challenge. It will dull saw blades, router bits, and drill bits in short order. The splinters seem to hurt like hell, and it is almost as heavy as some of the composites. All of this translates to a more labor intensive/expensive install. If you are looking for a concealed fastener system, expect the labor to be at least double that of a face fastened system. Oh, and the material price is 4-5 times that of PT decking (at least in my area).
Having said all that, I still recommend IPE to clients who want a good looking, long-term, low maintenance deck.
My deck isn't but three years old and I've already replaced the rails and will be replacing the decking soon. It's all pressure treated in the hostile East Tennessee jungle, but I don't think its the material so much as the "craps"-menship that went into it. The "builder" used bright nails and must have just got a new nail gun because he shot about fifty fasteners per board. You've got to give the wood a little room to move. I've been hell bent on composites that is, until I saw a display at my local big box store that was obviously a little old. The deck was about as scruffy looking as an ally cat, and had black stains from end to end that I'm partly sure was mildew. I've heard good things about Ipe but it isn't readily available in my market, so I think I'm sticking with pressure treated lumber. I'm just going to install it a little smarter with screws and treatment of all my field cuts.
What about PVC?
Asking what is "best" of any particular builing material is sure to draw lots of debate. That said, I concur with the ipe zealots who will probably pop up. I just finished building a 14x24 deck (in Minnesota) with 5/4 x 6 ipe. The field was all pre-grooved material to accept ipe-clip hidden fasteners. REALLY tedious to install, but the finished product is gorgeous (imho). I haven't put any finish on it yet, but plan to this weekend (Messmer's).
In short, great stuff, but a real bear to work with. Hard to carry (must be 6-8 times the weight of cedar), hard to cut, hard to drill, hard to ______. But the result is worth it.
View Image
View Image
Edited 7/22/2008 8:44 pm ET by MNMike
Edited 7/23/2008 12:04 pm ET by MNMike
Mike
Great looking deck! Is that pergola/arbor painted? looks like it and I like the contrast.
Doug
Thanks - the rail and the pergola are cedar finished with Cabot opaque stain.
Edited 7/22/2008 9:13 pm ET by MNMike
Mike, if you were charging a client for your time, what would be the approximate cost of that deck? Looks great BTW.
Jeff
Jeff - I wouldn't even know where to start to answer that question. I don't do this stuff for a living, so I really have no idea what the install time would be worth. For whatever it's worth, installing the decking (not the framing, arbor, railings, etc.) probably took me the better part of three full days. Not sure a real contractor couldn't do it faster (I'm sure one could).
If you figured your time at $50/hour and materials at +/- cost plus 20% what would you come up with?TIA - Jeff
If I had a 1st level deck on a house with a crawl space foundation I would think real hard about a stamped concrete patio with steps up to the house. Very low maintenance and if done properly will last a lifetime.
Figuring it that way, I'd say I've probably got $15K into the job, split roughly 1/2 and 1/2 between labor and materials (but as I said, I'm probably not as fast as most).
thanks!
Nice job! I like the trellis and foot lights. What kind of railing is that?I saw it done on T.V. that way...
Very well done Mike.
Take a look at Garapa Gold, it's a little less expensive than ipe and has a much lighter color.
Just laid this t&g garapa on my new back porch last week, it was supplied and milled by EastTeak, it has TWP's honey tone finish.
View Image
View Image
Edited 7/23/2008 8:20 am ET by kwik
I just did a re-deck for some friends a few months ago and used Procell PVC(Azek product). I'm not a fan of PVC for lots of reasons, but it is a very durable product. They live on a lake in NC and get full southern sun all day. The stuff stays pretty cool to walk on compared to other composites, although it is really slick when wet. I had some problems with swelling already and it has no real strength at all, so you need 16" centers and lots of blocking, but it looks good and will not stain or scratch. Other than the span/swelling issues it was really easy to install. We had 300 sq ft replaced in a day and a half using tiger claw fasteners.
Edited 7/23/2008 10:39 am ET by remodelman
To answer one of your questions; I live south of Jacksonville, FL and built a deck and a dock with Trex. It is not uncomfortable to walk on barefoot in the sun. Certainly nicer on the feet than PT SYP.
Thanks to all for the excellent recommendations.
An IPE installer I spoke with in my area recommended I look at one of his decks to give me a better feel for the finished look. It was really well done (although not as nice as Mike's in Minnesota, or the Garapa Gold, which looks nicer than the floors inside my house). I did have one concern, which was scratches under the metal deck furniture. I have three small kids with various deck-destorying playthings, so that could be a problem.
I have also used AZEK (PVC) trim on my house and while it is extremely durable, it is also not very stable. I'm researching other composite materials and am leaning in that direction, but there seem to be an awful lot of them out there. TREX seems to be the industry leader, so that is the leading conteder at this point. Any other suggestions in this area welcome.
See my previous post. I was hell-bent on it as well, but then I saw an old composite deck. You may be OK with it.
My Dad has had a couple of Trex decks, and they do tend to fade and stain over the years. They use a really high recycled content(90%?), and they have been around for a long time, so I like the product, but it has its drawbacks.
"Best Deck Material?"
Depends. Depends on how much your house is worth. $10k deck on a $100k house? Waste of money - unless that is really just what you want and you are planning on staying for a decade or 2. Depends on your budget. Getting a really nice deck but not being able to afford dental work for the family may not be a wise decision. Depends on how much maintenance you want to do. PT lumber can perform reasonable well as long as it is maintained with a coat of stain every several years. PT lumber, like anything else, is available in different grades. Ipe needs to be treated periodically too if you want it to look like all those $$$ you spent, and I'd at least think once about the unmanaged deforestation of our planet and it how it effects this "new" global warming thing. Synthetics are less maintenance but have other issues and they are not cheap either.
Edited 7/26/2008 10:03 am ET by Matt
"...and I'd at least think once about the unmanaged deforestation of our planet and it how it effects this "new" global warming thing..."
FYI, you can (and I did) buy FSC certified ipe. You shouldn't assume for a moment that the pine used to make pressure treated lumber is "sustainably harvested."
Moreover, I don't see anything wrong with installing decking that will last upwards of 30-50 years if properly maintained (ipe) as opposed to something that will need to be replaced in far less time.
Mike:
Good point about the FSC certified ipe. I had forgotten about that.
I was just pointing out the plusses and minuses of the various materials. Each has it's place. If anyone feels that a $15k deck on a $100k vinyl siding house along side like vinyl sided homes is the right thing to do more power to 'em.
Let me be clear - I'm not taking anything away your project. It is beautiful.
That's the problem with breaktime though. If someone asks what are the best _______ let's say, lightfixtures, I can respond gold. No maintenance, very durable. Obviously it's isn't practical in most situations. Finding out what is best is a good start in working toward a quality project. Then the dreaded budget comes into play. We all have 'em. If the guy had asked "What is the best decking. There is no budget, and I have an onsite maintenance staff" I think everyone would agree Ipe. No discussion needed. The most expensive product isn't the best solution for every situation though.
To further illustrate my point, read through this thread. From the .1 post: "I've been in my condo for about 10 years, and being a breaktimer, I've fixed it up top knotch... very nice custom hickory cabinets for the kitchen, real hardwood flooring in the living area, very nice tile job in kitchen, bath, new bathroom cabinets, with granite counter tops, custom built high-end closet system" The guy ended up realizing maybe 15% of the money he spent when he sold it. It's called over-improving.
As a building professional I have to do what's appropriate for a particular property. It's called caring about my customers. Right now I'm building a $200k house for a guy and he says he wants a 16x14 deck. I give him a price of ~3300 for PT lumber. I tell him it will be PT and he will need to stain it after 4 months and every 2 years thereafter. He actually doesn't know what PT lumber is. I describe it to him. Will I use the cheapest PT available? No. Do you think it would have really been a good use of my time to price out the job with Ipe? Million dollar house? Darn right I would have started with ipe...
Sounds like you have deep pockets.
No worries, Matt. Also, not sure I would characterize my pockets as particularly deep, but suffice it to say mine is not a 100K vinyl sided house. In context, a 15K deck (which, remember, I have only about $7,500 into for materials, given that I built it myself) is quite appropriate for this house.
Naturally, a project should be spec'd appropriate to the house in its entirety.
Regarding your project I really like the looks of natural wood (flooring) with the painted (opaque stain in your instance) accents. Very classic. I was kinda wondering if your's was on a lake...
Unfortunately, no, just in a suburb of the Twin Cities.