I have a 50′ (I think) Ideal brand Fish Tape. The problem is that it tends to tangle itself up inside the housing after a few uses. Then I disassemble it, straighten out the whole damn tape, and reel it up again. It works OK for a while, and then tangles again. Any ideas? I looked at a 25′ Greenlee tape that seemed to store the tape more like a tape measure. But the tape seemed flimsy.
Anyway, I appreciate any suggestions on the best fish tape.
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Replies
I have a 50 and 100 foot Ideal steel tape and it has never tangled on me. I wonder if you are rolling it up or feeding it correctly? When feeding dont pull the tape out of the reel, "unroll" it like a fishing reel. Mine is the older on that dosen't have a handle, just looks like a flat blue doughnut. There is a new model that uses a plastic or fiberglass tape that looks real good.
Hope that helps.
MIke
Mike,
Mine has a handle. My understanding is that by rotating the handle around the blue donut, you are "unrolling it" as you say in your post. still gets buggered up after not too much use.
Alec
I have the same handled Ideal fish tape gizmo that is all buggered up.
This thread reminds me to finally take a look at it to see what went wrong...
I have the older handeless models. Instead of rotating the handle, hold the handle and spin the reel. If you hold the donut and spin the handle you would twist the tape. I have also seen guys pull the tape tight as the reel it in. That looks like a bad idea to me. I think pulling it tight tangles the tape.
Hope this helps, tapes aren't cheep.
Mike
I busted the case on my main 50' tape a few years ago. I just took a piece of gray flex conduit, 1" dia by about 3' long, and ran the tape into a loop into that, forming a circle with about a 5' or so *circumference*.
Works better than the reels, all my tapes are wound like that now. Ditch the case, it's easier faster and less frustrating.
This is important! RTFM.
The fish tapes should have a handle nowadays. To pull the tape out, you hold the handle and pull the tape out.
To reel the tape in, you hold the handle and turn the [blue] case, thus winding it in. You do NOT push the tape into the case.
I once lent my 200' tape to some guys and they returned it and said they had some difficulty with it. Now, it is a 55' tape.
As to who makes the best tape, all the big guys, Klein, Greenlee, Gardner Bender and Ideal make about the same thing. A steel tape 1/8" X 1/16" x whatever. Price is about 25¢/ft. For $1.00/foot, you can get the round plasticm nylon fiberglass tape which is useful when you have 90º bends in different planes close together. I think Klein or Greenlee makes a braided round steel tape which does the same thing.
~Peter
I have a question....
After reading your warning about how to unwind/rewind, I attempted to unwind my Ideal 50' 1/8" tape.
Ended up having to secure the tip on a vice and pull away with the case to get it started.
After unwinding the entire length, I wound the tape back in but near the end it became a struggle.
No way I can pull the tape out in the begging by just holding the case and pulling on the lead.
Is something messed up ?
Rewinding the tape back into the case seemed to be going properly.
I think Mike and 4Lorn and the others above should help you out.
It sounds like your case is too small for the total length of your fish tape. But this shouldn't be so. Perhaps if you winded it up with a little bit of tension?
Sorry I couldn't help you more.
Note to 4Lorn: as for the round nylon tape, I don't like to use mine for pulling in wires themselves but only a jet line/string or pull rope. I don't even like to pull with steel tape. It's hard to grip the steel. With a yellow 1/4" rope, for example, you can put a couple of loops around your linesmans and get a much better grip.
Also, on the subject, may I suggest using wire lube?
Also, when installing the conduit, there are certain things which can be done to make the pull easier. Don't use 1/2" PVC. Use super bends. Upsize the conduit. Don't ever use 1 1/4" EMT.
~Peter
Klein and Greenlee make a tape pulling handles. A small handle that cams onto the tape and provides a good 'T' handle that allows significant force. There is also a variation on certain lineman's pliers that have a tape grip built into the handle. These also are good. Usually I just grip the tape with the pliers jaws taking care not to engage the cutters.
In a properly designed run, watch the bends with 360 degrees as max 270 standard, there is usually little need for such force. Just gripping the tape with a pair of leather gloves works fine. Keeping an eye on conduit fill, making proper heads on the bundle and using a good lube, remember: 'there is always time for lubrication', and good feed technique make things a lot easier.
Assume PVC conduits will make a pull stick without lubrication. Something about the dry PVC grabs the insulation. Just a bit of lube makes all the difference.
Lubes. Yellow-77 is the standard, good for everything lube. It dries to an easily handle wax film. Given a bit of wiping and allowed to dry you can handle and grip the wires.
Hydrolube 2000 is great for longer and larger runs. Its ability to stick to wires on long runs and limit friction are remarkable. Its remarkable resemblance to certain PBFs, as per general Ripper, is unfortunate. Don't get this stuff on anything you have to handle. Keep wash up water supply, soap and towels handy.
Once saw two boss men get 'spooged' as a head chasing a full five gallon bolus emerged. They looked like the love interest of a bull elephant. Rumor is that this stuff originated in the sex shops of CA. I will leave it to your imaginations.
There are several stick wax products, they look like giant chapstick rolls, that are quite handy for small jobs and inside homes where a more liquid product could cause problems. It is also safer to use near energized circuits.
Talcum powder makes a handy lubricant for shorter runs. It doesn't lubricate much but it is enough to break to grip of PVC enough to get the run in. Being both dry and non-conductive it can be handy for pulling through live panels.
Most brands are variations on these types with similar traits. I avoid the stuff with the beads. After a day of pulling those beads can be quite irritating. They don't seem to help much. Teflon fortified varieties seem only marginally better.
Avoid soaps, detergents or any petroleum products. The old standby Ivory Flakes is corrosive to both the conductors and the steel in conduits, dries in a form that glues the wires in place, often making removal impossible, and tends to attract moisture out of the atmosphere multiplying the corrosion problems. This can make a simple job into an expensive nightmare.
I have nothing against any particular conduit size or type as long as they are not overloaded. Longer runs and runs that have anything close to a full 360 degree in bend, and certainly if there are more than code, can benefit from oversized conduits.
> Rumor is that this stuff originated in the sex shops of CA. I will leave it to your imaginations.
I kinda doubt that, since Astroglide is about $2/oz. -- way too expensive to try for pulling wires. Hmmmm --- Maybe there's a business opportunity in re-packaging Hydrolube 2000..... ;-)
-- J.S.
Can you elaborate about your aversion to 1/2" pvc and 1.25" EMT?
I typed up a neat reply but tried to copy it and instead replaced it with a copy of my previous post. See next post and I'll try to re-create it.
~Peter
Edited 2/23/2004 11:16:08 PM ET by PM22
Glad to.
1/2" PVC conduit. This is just hard to pull and not worth it. 3/4" doesn't cost that much more , is easier to pull and provides room for additional wires in the future. My first real electrical job was pulling wires in 1/2" PVC and I wondered why it was hard to pull three little wires into a compasratively big pipe. This is the difference between one man taking 5 minutes to push and two men taking 30 minutes to push and pull. These men are paid. You save $5 on materials. You do the math.
As for the evil, degenerate travestry of commonsense 1 1/4" EMT: it is like 7/16" copper tubing. It is an odd size. If you need a bigger size than 1", why not go to 1 1/2" or even 2".
They make hand benders for 1/2", 3/4", 1" and 1 1/4" but the 1 1/4" only works if you weigh 300 lbs and have the strength of a certain Governor who lives in Sacramento. The larger sizes are always bent with mechanical or hydraulic benders. These benders can be furnished with 1 1 /4" shoes but the contractors are cheap and don't buy them since they assume their employees will get their own 1 1 /4" benders so we're stuck with something which doesn't work.
There seems to be a big problem with supplies running out at the job site. I would settle for a mix of 3/4", 1", 2" and 4" [but also toss in 1/2" beause it is fun]. Each size of conduit requires a supply pf couplings, connectors, one hole straps, two hole straps, conduit hangers ["Minnies"] and Uni-Strut straps. The more different sizes you use, the harder it is to keep all of these items in stock.
Peter Dyer lived in the country and it was inconvenient to run to the store every time he ran out of some staple like coffee or sugar. So he developed this system: he would have two packages of each item. When one was used up, it would go on the list for the next monthly shopping trip and the second, spare, package would be opened. This is the way job bins should be stocked. Have you every seen a $30/hr. electrician spend 15 minutes wandering around the campus begging for a 10¢ one hole strap? [¢ = Alt + 0162]
~Peter
> Also, when installing the conduit, there are certain things which can be done to make the pull easier. Don't use 1/2" PVC. Use super bends. Upsize the conduit. Don't ever use 1 1/4" EMT.
The most effective of all is to have a helper on the feed end giving the wires a firm but gentle push. This greatly reduces the friction at the first bend. It's better if the push end is the one closest to a bend.
-- J.S.
Good point.
I was having difficulty imagining any reasonable use of half-inch PVC that would pose any great problems in pulling. Even when I work alone.
I have come to the conclusion that the hardest thing is to pull the g^* da#@ed wires off the spools. 23
But, indeed, pushing the wires is more effective. So far, I have pushed 3 solid #12 wires 100'± through 1/2" EMT. This is a straight run.
The thing is that when you are pulling thru a 90º bend, the wires are rubbing against the inside surface of the conduit and the more force you pull with, the more friction is developed -- sort of like using a capstan on a tugger or yacht windlass. When you are pushing, the wires are forced against the outer circumference of the bend and they just bounce off. Proper pushing can effectively eliminate maybe two 90º bends.
~Peter and the Cat Human [he wrote the bit about "23" whatever that means.]
> When you are pushing, the wires are forced against the outer circumference ....
With one person pushing and another pulling, the wires go thru the first 90 with very little pressure against either the inner or outer side.
-- J.S.
Nylon is the way to go.The only time it's not superior to steel is when you're pushing it into large diameter conduits.I don't even ask for steel anymore.
That said the other day the shop sent out a new 100' Ideal in a blue case with a handle on it.After using it the first time I actually said out loud " Wow is this thing smooth,what a well made tool!".After lunch noticed it out of the case on the breakroom floor.Two other guys using it locked it up so hard the pretty blue case is now useless.
The standard 3/16" wide spring steel tapes handle about 98% of all the jobs. Cheap, durable and effective. Knowing how to wind and maintain them helps get the most out of them.
I like to use wax on mine. Seems to keep the rust under control and the tape sliding, both in the reel and the conduits, easily. Running the tape through bundles of steel wool tightly clamped between 2bys in a bumper vice helps greatly.
Once the tape has been horsed a few times and developed serous kinks running it into a tight 'S' bent into a piece of 1/2" EMT smoothes things out. I have been known to use two service trucks to speed this process and provide the force needed to do a really good job at it.
Lay the tape out straight pointed at the bumper of a truck. Chuck the EMT into the vice on the bumper and thread the tape in. Use a bit of rope to tie the tapes end to the bumper of the second truck. A steady 5 MPH is about right. A strong pull by a gloved helper holding back on the other end of the tape lends friction. Make sure the helper knows he has to let go before the hands meet the EMT.
Doing both procedures. Steel wool three or four times and the 'S' curve once and finishing with a good waxing every year or so make life easier. Every tape in a twenty man shop can be done in a day by two people. This is good for those slow days when you want to keep a crew busy in thin times but not just doing make-work.
Steel tapes. These are the work horses. These get used and abused, beat up and sometimes blown up. Not uncommon to see a couple of journeymen and a helper or two hanging on one of these pulling wires in. If, when, the tape snaps, becomes doubled over or rusts too much. You are not out of much. These units are relatively cheap and short lengths are handy for fishing walls, short runs and even, if cut off at an angle, a handy flexible drill bit.
The spring wound fish tapes are more flexible. These are handy when the conduit guys a pushing, sometimes bending, the legal limits and bends are in all planes. Problem is these units are a lot more expensive and nowhere near as durable or adaptable. You can more cheaply and economically get most of the same advantages by buying the spring wound leaders that attach on the front of a conventional tape.
Nylon. These are slippery but not nearly as stiff, an important factor if your pushing into multiple bends. The main reason for these units to exist is working around live panels. A steel tape running a fraction of an inch away from a live terminal tends to focus the attention. In this case a nylon tape can be a boon. Nylon tapes are more expensive and do not take to the brute force pulling a regular steel tape can take.
Some use these tapes to push into conduits with existing wires. Usually I use one of the existing wires to pull any conductors I need to add. Once tightly kinked nylon tapes develop a weak spot that cannot be effectively straightened, by using a torch, like a steel unit often can. Short sections of nylon tapes have much less utility as they don't hold a hook or loop without taping.
Stainless tapes. These are more rarely seen and several times as expensive as regular steel. They are perform similarly to their plain steel cousins. Their main advantage is in their corrosion resistance. If kept otherwise clean they can prevent rust tracks on the customers $400 a square yard white wool carpets. They also offer advantages in wiring some industrial jobs where the chemicals present can eat through common steel in a week.
My fishtape is a Gardner-Bender. It's one of the newer ones, and the case comes with a handle, like yours.
I think your problem is that you're not holding down the trigger on the handle while you're rewinding. This lets the tape wind loosely inside the case. Then, as you get towards the end, friction builds up naturally because of the bulk involved, and the tape you are trying to wind in does not wind smoothly onto the outside of a tightly-wound spool of tape, but cuts in to a loosely wrapped coil of tape and then tangles up bigtime when you try to unreel it the next time.
I don't know for sure if your tape has a trigger on the handle; if not you need to use your hands or something to put a smooth and uniform tension on the tape while you wind it in so that it winds tightly onto the core and stays that way.
Another trick: Once the fishtape is wound into the can, I tape the winding handle in place on the doughnut so that the springiness of the fishtape inside won't push it back around and unwind itself while the thing is not being used. This keeps the fishtape wound tight.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?