Heres the situation:
Building a 1000 sf simple little home for mom. Due to reasons I won’t go into here (but it involves my brother!!) It must be built on a turn-down slab. One thought is to go simple with stained concrete, minimal carpeting, vinyl flooring etc. and just buy mom some good work boots to wear around the house. But.. I just can’t see it. So I am going to try and go the other route and experiment with some ideas. Should I float a floor above the concrete? Insulation above the slab but under the floor? What about comfort for 70 year old feet? (sorry mom)
The question:
What experiences do you have with flooring on slabs?
Has anyone any experience with electric flooring like in this month’s issue of TOH? My brother came up with the idea of using full 8 footers for studs and that would give us a little room to raise the floor. Anyone done anything like this?
Thanks for the input.
Terence
ps. Its near Seattle so average temps are not too cold but I am thinking about using this house to experiment with some energy efficient framing/insulation/heating techniques. Any and all ideas welcome.
pps. Yeah, I know. Don’t do slabs. Unfortunately its a done deal.
Edited 10/21/2005 3:54 am ET by TDRucker
Replies
95 % of all the slabs around here are turn down slab or what we call monolithic. My floor is just finish slab. it not bad, not bad on feet at all. area rugs make it better, what like is i can sweep and mop the whole house in twenty minutes.
You can put anything you want to over a slab. Wood, tile, carpet, laminate, whatever you like the best. There are even snap-together engineered products that look sort of like wood.
Any floor finish over a slab is really pretty easy. And you don't need those studs.
Or as Brownbagg pointed out, use nothing.
You can go with integrally colored concrete or stain it afterwards.
I like integral color. It's a lot less work and it can't wear out.
With stain you can do patterns. Some people like that.
As for insulation, if you put 4' of insulation around the perimeter, you are getting the most bang for your buck, and typically meeting MEC if you are at less than 6,001 degree-days.
You can install more insulation under the slab if you like, but it makes the concrete a little tough to place and finish unless you put a couple inches of sand over the insulation.
If you are going with an exposed concrete floor I'd give serious thought to radiant heat. It's great. You wouldn't believe how comfortable a concrete floor is when it's warm.
once seen a guy pour a slab, after the slab cured, he came back in and layed out a square grid of maybe 2' and had a company cut the grid in about 1/2" deep. Eased or rounded the edges of the squares with a buffing block.Hosed it off good.......and then built his house.When he got to that stage of finishing he stained it and went back and grouted the cut grid lines.Looked like giant mexican tile.For an economical and rustic look it was way cool.
All the houses here are slabs.
Stained concrete and tile are the hardest to stand on, coldest in the morning, and easiest to keep clean.
Carpet is the softest, quietest, most forgiving of slab defects.
Wood is a nice compromise, but can't tolerate much moisture.
It's only 1000 sf ... ask mom what she prefers. You'll probably put tile in the bath and kitchen anyway, so you can't be talking about much material for ther bedroom and living room.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I guess I should have pointed out better that the slab is ALREADY poured and set. Now I have to decide how best to insulate and make a floor that is suitable for an older lady to stand on. I could co just for carpet but I want something else underneath, especially in the kitchen where she will spend a lot of time standing. I saw a new product at HD the other day (can't remember the name) that looked like 18"square tiles of interlocking OSB with raised plastic dimples on the bottom. Wondering if it would be worth the expense. ($1.60 sf)
Any ideas?
Thanks.
T.
I thought that OSB product was for basements with water issues.
You would have a transition that your mother would have to deal with.
Why couldnt you put some sort of floating floor in the kitchen, it'd be warmer then tile/vinyl over the slab. Cork floor would be nice in a kitchen, and it would be softer and warmer then concrete.
Doug
The transition is no problem. I can build to any level as the walls n plates aren't up yet. Concrete is sooo unforgiving. Even under most carpets it can be hard on older legs and backs. Although most carpets have give or "sponginess" they have no "spring" This can be hard on joints. One person suggested putting down 1 1/2" foam with PT nailers every 16"-24" Has anyone tried this with success?
Thanks.
T.
I've done it without the nailers. The compressive strength of foam is remarkable. One inch of foam would make a difference, and you can Tapcon the plywood to the slab.Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
Sounds good. I was going to go with tile for entry/kitchen/bathroom. But I think I might go with the snaplock stuff. I've heard it works ok if you take the time to seal the edges in places like bathrooms. Do you think I should put down a moisture barrier before the foam or just tape the edges? I like the idea of cork too. I am going to have to research the economies of these different systems. Anyone in Kitsap County/Seattle Area have any leads on suppliers?
Thanks.
Terence
ps Thanks for all the ideas. I am considering them all at this point.
I assume there's a vapor barrier below the slab? Then no more is needed. Nothing wrong with the DriLok either, except it doesn't have the R-value of foam.Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
One person suggested putting down 1 1/2" foam with PT nailers every 16"-24" Has anyone tried this with success?
You mean foma on sleepers/nailers, or between nailers? Only hassle in using 1" foam would be in ripping what ever the tackless strips get mounted to.
Now, since it is just a bare slab right now, it is tempting to recommend a pt sleeper over the slab which would allow you to install a RFH system under whatever floor goes over the sleepers. Lets you run one system, no matter what the flooring is, since you can rip the sleepers as needed for tile floor backing, etc. and get one finish floor elevation. But your brother may not have budgeted for RFH.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
You don't want the floor too soft. Ever walk on a really thick carpet over a really thick pad? It's like walking on pea gravel. Feels weird. Also does not do well for wheels, like carts and wheelchairs.
Cork flooring would be a good choice.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I can recommend the foam system mentioned by Andy. See his article in FHB about it. The foam wears many hats -- it insulates, it cushions, and it is a vapor retarder. Used EPS foam but you can use XPS foam if it is 1" or less thick. Tape the foam seams and then fasten two layers of 1/2" plywood over the foam. The first plywood layer is tapcon'ed into the slab. The second plywood layer is laid perpendular to the first and is screwed to the first layer with 1 1/4" screws. Don't forget to "stagger yer joints" and leave a 1/8" expansion gap around the edges of the plywood panels.
This will give you a warm dry cushioned floor that use for carpet, cork or vinyl. For tile I would make the plywood 1 1/4" thick total and perhaps use Ditra.
Billy
This sound like the way to go. Are there any issues with air quality that you know of? I suppose it would depend on the type of foam used. Can you make any recomendations to this? Anyone else? Andy? Also, why the double layers of 1/2"? Is this over kill for a carpeted floor? Could I just use T&G instead. Any tile I use will be the new snap-lock stuff.
I'm listening to Toby Keiths "Lets talk about Me" while typing this. What a song. He must have been listening in on me 'n the missus.
Cheers.
Terence
ps.
I messed around trying to find the article by Andy that you mentioned. No luck. Can you shed a little more light on issue no. or year, etc.
Thanks.
Terence
Check out this resource as well:
http://www.buildingscience.com/resources/foundations/basement_insulation_systems.pdf
http://www.buildingscience.com/resources/mold/Read_This_Before_You_Design_Build_or_Renovate.pdf
Here's the deal on the two layers of plywood. First, you get the benefit of having offset seams on the two layers. Second, there is a benefit of having the top layer of plywood attached the first layer but not tapcon'ed to the slab. Perhaps T&G plywood would work fine, if it is thick enough. In that case I would use XPS insulation because it is more rigid than EPS.
The article is in FHB issue 169. See below and use the "search" function on this forum.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=57188.1
Billy
Edited 10/27/2005 5:16 pm ET by Billy