I’m getting conflicting advice, for applying cultered “rock” to wire mesh over a chimney chase…
4 sand, 1 white type N , 1 lime is what a very good mason told me.
The rock supplier , doesn’t agree, they say type S , and don’t have white, they have Oceana ( off white, which is OK by me).
Mason says the lime will shrink more, and I should keep it wet longer so it won’t crack..I’ll also be daubbing log spaces, hopefully with the same mix.
So the wire mesh, gets a scratch coat , right? Then glue the rock on ( with S mix) then point with N?
Kinda short on time ( I have a lift here, and a helper) and can’t be chasing down any special portland that isn’t available in my small ‘burg..a trip to the city eats up 3 hours.
Any other advice? Conflicting or not?
Edit for clarity, it is exterior work.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
“If Brains was lard, you couldn’t grease much of a pan”
Jed Clampitt
Edited 7/17/2009 8:06 am ET by Sphere
Replies
So the wire mesh, gets a scratch coat , right? Then glue the rock on ( with S mix) then point with N?
Thats how I've done it.....
Forgot to mention. I've had better luck with a slightly wetter mix.
Edited 7/17/2009 8:43 am ET by carloa007
I did one last summer with sandstone, cut to about 1-1/4" thick (I thought it looked better than cultured). I just used 3 sand, 1 Type S, and some colorant. I did not use a scratch coat -- just glued it up to well-fastened diamond lath.
So far, so good. No shrinkage, cracks or anything untoward, even after fires.
Pics:
Attached diamond lath to the painted brick fireplace using tapcons and fender washers. I build temporary wooden surround and arch templates to keep things lined up/supported correctly for the mantel that would be built later.
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Here's My Lovely Assistant mounting the stone -- she was laying the stone while I was cutting and fitting it. Applied mortar to the lath, back-buttered the stone, and grouted all at the same time and with the same mix.
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Finished product:
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BTW, I'm happy to see that your banishment from the realm wasn't permanent after all. :-)
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Everything fits, until you put glue on it.
Edited 7/17/2009 8:45 am ET by MikeHennessy
Wow, thats an awesome job there Mike.
I'm a waiting on the latest shower to pass then head to get the rock and a bag of EACH cement..LOL. I figure forearmed is the way to go till I get the hang of it.
All these dang letters..M,N, S geeze, tell me what it DOES not what it's called...can ya tell I'm not a mason?
I'd use real stone ( I have the orignal chimney in a pile in the yard) but I'm covering the chase, and the roof is carrying some of the load, so I gotta keep the weight down.
Its a goofy deal ( like everything here) where the old FP was tore out, and the chimney hole in the roof was what I had to build to, and the chase is really just kinda there..I'll maybe have to post under it, to the logs below. Saddle bag log homes are fraught with funny doings when the roof structure is kinda spanning the dogtrot. And no structural ridge, pegged rafters.
Yikes.
Yeah, good to be back as me..that Robyn is aces. (G)Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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Oh, outside? Over a wood chase? I missed that.
In that case, disregard what I said. You've got lots more to consider than just veneering over some existing masonry. Also, the reason for the lime, I'd guess, to add a little more give.
Me, I'd trust the mason.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
Yeah, he says the lime (hydrated) adds more stickyness. But he is such a good mason, he won't even discuss stick on rock ,LOL.
Heres an idea, I'll read what the rock instructions say..?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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"Heres an idea, I'll read what the rock instructions say..?"
Sir, you shock and disappoint me.
;-)Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
I've been looking at refacing my FP with this stuff and the instructions I've read just say use "mortar". The stone manuf. aren't selling the mortar, so they seem to be pretty non-commital.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Just got back with the goods. They suggested I use type S ( I got two bags) and 3 sand 1 mortar. I didn't get the lime yet, I gotta go to the farm supply for hydrated. I got one bag of N for scratch...I guess.
BTW, this is all Miles'es recipe.
First order of work is inspect my chase , it's been 6 yrs almost, just in tarpaper ( it's been gone a year now) and repaper it, then get to the mesh ing , if I have enough of that..after I make up the flashing.
They threw in an xtra box of corners so's I won't run out, that was kind of them. I just got what was in stock, a chiseled granite looking rock, Vs. the sandstone I was leaning towards...time is of the essence, so I'll make do. Gonna have a grand in this thing by the time I am all said and done, but will really dress up the look of the house.
The van is squatting pretty good, it's a heavy heap of fake stone. Almost a ton I reckon.
Off I go..wish me luck.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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Here is a link from the Portland Cement Association that may be helpful:
http://www.cement.org/masonry/cc_mortar_types.asp
Thank you. I see I do have the proper stuff for what I intend.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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Duane, when I installed the lick an stick stuff on some Va. state park cabins year before last, the powers that be on that job speced type S scratch coat over metal lath attached to block. For the joints they wanted type N .but I have used either type with great results on other jobs , without any failure. I usally use a 1:3 mix when I mix in a wheelbarrow that works out to 10 squarepoint shovels of sand to 1/2 bag of mortar mix for buttering and a 1:3 mix with a liquid lime admix added to the mix water for the joints.
Ok, how about color? I got reg. S ( and N) and some Ochre powder, wanna color the pointing/grout...say one shovel of S, 3 of sand, how much dye? 2 OZ ...more less?
And do ya add it to the water or the dry mix?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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add it to the dry mix--2o.z. sounds about right, what I use comes in individual packets. The problem I have is fading with colored mortar I usally tryto stick with the untinted stuff if possable "quicker" and not as fussy and messy.
yeah, died mortar is more trouble then it's worth. I'm sure someone will pipe up with some perfect method,
but there are endless ways to screw it up.
"yeah, died mortar is more trouble then it's worth."Where do you buy the un-dead Vampire mud?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Not sure. Probably next to my dictionary.
Yeah, I know - don't quit my day job
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You really should have gotten the peel'n'stick rocks and the grout in the 10.5 ox caulk tubes.;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
How about PL Premium Polyurethane construction adhesive and GRK screws to stick up the rocks?
Don't laugh, it's been done.
What size counter sink do I need for that? And do I plug the screw holes? How do I make the plugs?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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I'd pound lead into the countersinks.
Just smear some chicken dung in there.
They do that for fake brick.There is a"brick system" that has a leg on the faux brick that is screwed to the sheathing.
.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
My uncle was thinking about putting those screw on bricks on his house once, but they are fairly expensive.
I installed veneer stone for a while many moons ago. I always used 2 sand to 1 portland for scratch, installation and grouting. 1/2 lime added to that makes it handle better, especially if you're using a grout bag.
Don't forget to wet your stones.
http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Isn't the "stickyness" with added lime you mentioned referred to as 'plastic' cement? As you probably know, plastic cement is available already mixed with sticky additives.
Edited 7/17/2009 4:35 pm by woodway
The way I understand it, Type M is the strongest but not necessarily the best. The addition of lime tempers that strength some by introduciong some elasticity. My understanding may not be correct. I've forgotten a lot of what I used to know when I worked with cement more.
http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Edited 7/18/2009 6:11 am ET by seeyou
No, M,S,N and then O has the least..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Thanks - that was a typo.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Your mason is correct. (of course)
Up here in freeze country you Must add bonding agent, not sure about down there but I'd still put it in for good measure.
Scratch coat, let cure 24.
Wet it down, and stick away.
Don't forget the "Butter the rock, stick it on, give it the squish and wiggle, then hold for a three count" rule.
Personally I don't use different recipes for the joints but each to
his own.
Oh yeah, seal the darn thing when your done.
Sounds like a plan. I got it all papered in and the wire up. Scratch first thing in the AM.
I axed him about bonding agent, he said not needed.
Good call on the sealer, I didn't think of that. Stones ain't my forte', but I'm learning fast.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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I meant to say earlier - do what Smiley tells you to. Hell, I've seen him make his own bricks.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
I think he's up to that again. That job up there in Mway needs some soldier courses that are way longer than normal. He was telling me about the ones he made at Henry Clay Estate.
I saw that being done in Williamsburg, they actually mixed the clay by stomping it like grapes, I can't see Miles doing that..(G)
Man, just getting the lath up looks a 100% better, I made some nice flashing , wide out on the roof enough to keep the wind blown from getting under..my plan was lead for there, but I forgot I had it!!!!!!Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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they actually mixed the clay by stomping it like grapes, I can't see Miles doing that..
IIRC, they were kneeding it by hand like bread dough. He had a tractor trailer set up with a bunch of kilns in it at the estate. I'm pretty sure he didn't really know what he was doing because it had never been done like that before, but he BS'd the powers that be into paying him to do it and he pulled it off spectacularly. http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
He's good people. We got along instantly. I'd imagine there ain't too many who he don't get along with.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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Can't you buy a few bags of mortar in a sack, just add water.
No. I was told emphatically no. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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I'd imagine there ain't too many who he don't get along with.
I only know of one. This guy was trying to start a fight with Miles and me one time (the guy that did that copper porch roof at McK's) and he said "you guys think you're tough just because you're over 6 ft tall". And Miles said "I'm five eleven".http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
http://www.cement.org/masonry/cc_mortar_types.asp
N is the most universal type.
"Rule of Thumb: Use a Type N mortar for all masonry work unless there is a compelling reason to choose another mortar. C 270 provides recommendations for mortars choices in a concise tabular format as shown here. Note that alternative mortar types are also suggested, whether for availability considerations or for minimizing the number of different mortar types on the job site. Consult the appendix of C 270 for tuckpointing mortar guidance. "
And they already have lime in the them.
http://www.free-ed.net/sweethaven/bldgconst/masonry/lessonmain.asp?iNum=fra0104
"1-12. Type N. Type N mortar is composed of 1 part cement, 1¼ parts lime, and 6¾ parts sand. Type N has excellent workability because of its high lime content. It does not have the strength of Type M or Type S mortar. Type N-
* May be used in bearing walls that are above grade if stress is not too great.
* Is widely used in veneers.
* Is used in partitions and some exterior walls where climatic conditions are negligible.
"
S is stronger, don't see any need for it for pointing.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
I have about 2000 sq/ft of Idaho Quartzite flagging around my pool and patio that we put down ourselves. I found the best mix was type S with about 20% Ultra Flex tile mortar. This is real "sticky" with some give to it so it doesn't crack. I also used it for the pavers we used to "tile" the walls around the garage, shed and for the outdoor fireplace. It basically just adds some acrylic to the mix for better bonding.
At my masonry supply, you need to explicitly specify PCL mortar or else you get masonry cement mix. Might just be the store or the yard workers, but I thought I'd point it out since I nearly drove off with cement mix a couple of times. I mixed mine with extra lime as I wanted it even softer, 16:4:1, sand:mortar:lime.Z
Mortar Types (M, S, N and O) are performance standards, based on the compressive strength of the mortars. You can achieve any of these Mortar Types by using three different products. All three are portland-cement based.
The first way to make any of these Types (i.e., M, S, N and O) is to combine portland cement and lime. This is usually done on site but pre-blended bags are available in some areas. This mortar is often specified for commercial construction because it seems to perform better in terms of resisting water penetration.
The second way to make any of the Types is by buying masonry cement mortar. This mortar substitutes proprietary ingredients for the lime. The proprietary ingredients and the portland cement are pre-blended in the bag. Masonry cement is widely available and is the most common mortar used in residential masonry.
The third way is by buying mortar cement mortar. This is a new product, which uses proprietary ingredients. It's the Portland Cement Association's answer to portland cement/lime mortars.
I went into greater detail on this topic in this discussion: http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=79485.3