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Discussion Forum

Best second tier tool brands?

Senna | Posted in Tools for Home Building on May 30, 2005 06:46am

<!—-><!—-><!—-> 

I am not a professional builder but I want good quality tools. I am not going to spend big bucks for Dewlat Milwake etc. Not when I don’t use these tools everyday and it doesn’t cost time/money when a tool breaks down.

<!—->  <!—->

What brands of tools should I be looking at? Black and Decker, Ryobi, Stanley?

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Replies

  1. Nails | May 30, 2005 07:08pm | #1

    although alot of carpenters tend to favour a certain brand of tool, you will usually find that even then the collection of tools they own is not limited to just 1 brand. alot of brands seem to excell at a certain tool and gain a reputation of being the tool to beat, ei " Milwaukee sawzall ".

    You're going to find a similar scenario with "2 tier tools". (just stay away from  no name/obscure name tools)

    what specific tools are you looking for?

    If you're looking at table saws, I just got the new FHB and they rated the Ryobi as the best value. (bang for buck)

    If you're looking at skill saws the only advice I can offer is don't view having a laser sight as a selling feature. On lower end saws I've heard that the lasers are rarely aligned properly with the blade. 

  2. FNbenthayer | May 30, 2005 07:13pm | #2

    Some pro tool manufacturers(DeWalt, Hitachi, Bosch,etal) offer several "grades" of i.e. 14.4v cordless drill. IMHO, in the long run you'll be more satisfied with one of them than say a Ryobi or B&D.

    As for heavier corded tools like a belt sander, if you think you'll only need it once, rent a pro model, the cheap ones can be a real drag to use.

    Your mileage may vary.

     

     

     

     

    The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.
    - Fyodor Dostoyevski

  3. User avater
    JeffBuck | May 31, 2005 05:29am | #3

    I'd suggest looking at factory reconditioned tools.

    and ... corded tools usually cost less ... and are recommended when the tools will sit more often then be used. Inactivity kills batteries fast.

    That ... and I have a great "used tool" store near me. Beat to hell but running perfect old tools for half the price and less as new.

    Jeff

        Buck Construction

     Artistry In Carpentry

         Pittsburgh Pa

    1. b3lbittner | Jun 02, 2005 10:21pm | #32

      just curious where this great used tool shop is located. i live it pittsburgh and would like to check it out. thanks!

      1. User avater
        JeffBuck | Jun 02, 2005 11:28pm | #34

        http://www.toolsupermarket.com/

         

        Beaver Falls. Hamilton Tool and Supply.

        From my Mt Wash house .... mid day traffic ... about 45 min ... maybe an hour.

        I shoot straight down 65 then follow ... rt18(I think).

        It's right on the main street there. Easy to find.

        Lotsa crap ... some real bargains. Walking in with a copy of the Tool Crib helps ...

        some prices way low ... some way over priced.

        And if the right guy is at the counter ... they will bargain.

        I always ask for a "group discount" ... so try to buy in bulk!

         

        Jeff

         

        Jeff    Buck Construction

         Artistry In Carpentry

             Pittsburgh Pa

  4. User avater
    dieselpig | May 31, 2005 05:45am | #4

    I think Jeff has offered you some pretty good advice.  Buy corded, not cordless.  And try to buy used.  We have a local Want-Ad publication that covers a good portion of our state.  I buy and sell tools frequently through there.  If you have something similar, it's a great place to start.

    A word of caution.  Cheap tools can often make a job much more difficult than it has to be, not a good thing for anyone, but especially for someone just starting out or being an occasional 'weekend warrior' type.  Doing everything right and still getting crappy results from inaccurate, poor quality tools can really take the wind out of your sails and be very discouraging.  Give yourself the best chance you can by buying the best tools you can afford.  Pro-quality used tools are a good place to start.  They may only have a year's worth of daily use left in them, but that's an awful lot of weekends.

    EDIT: the reconditioned route is a good one too.  I buy reconditioned whenever possible as you usually get the same warranty as new and can save quite a few bucks.  Some come out of the box looking brand new at best and others come out looking like you used them for one weekend at worst.



    Edited 5/30/2005 10:48 pm ET by dieselpig

    1. User avater
      JeffBuck | May 31, 2005 08:57am | #6

      any tool I've spent over $50 on I've tried to find at Amazon/Tool Crib as factory reconditioned first. I only buy when it's the full factory warrenty and all accessories as per new. Have saved thousands over the years.

      Other places sell reconditioned too ... the amazon site makes it easy as the "tool section" has a "reconditioned section" in there. Just type in "factory reconditioned tools" in the search function ... it'll come up.

      Jeff    Buck Construction

       Artistry In Carpentry

           Pittsburgh Pa

  5. Nails | May 31, 2005 07:21am | #5

    Take heed to what Jeff and Dieselpig say..you might do ok with some of the lessor name brands, but personally I'd take a used/reconditioned dewalt, makita etc. over a B&D any day. 

    I bought a used dewalt359 circ saw for $50 off another framer who was switching to milwaukee's nice circ saws. It is a well worn in saw but the table is still straight and square to the blade, and it's got the power. way better deal than $50 bucks for a new B&D.

    My neighbour was doing some heavy cutting with his cheap saw one day and suddenly it started smoking. he burnt the motor out. So I brought over a makita I had sitting in my garage, went thru it like butter.  

  6. MisterT | May 31, 2005 01:14pm | #7

    Second grade tools??

    Dewalt and Crayola

    Although Ive seen dewalts that would frustrate most second graders

    Best second grade....

    aint that an oxymoron??

    ACTUALLY, IT'S QUITE GOOD ON TOAST!

     

    1. User avater
      G80104 | May 31, 2005 03:34pm | #8

       Friends don't let Friends buy RYOBI!

    2. Nails | Jun 01, 2005 08:59am | #10

      I'll take my dewalt skill saws over my makita any day.

      Edited 6/1/2005 10:04 am ET by nails2

      1. MisterT | Jun 01, 2005 01:03pm | #12

        And I think That dog turd has a better aroma than that one!!ACTUALLY, IT'S QUITE GOOD ON TOAST!

         

        1. Nails | Jun 01, 2005 05:05pm | #13

          ewww.

        2. Piffin | Jun 01, 2005 10:14pm | #15

          That new sig line of yours gets more attention every day!;) 

           

          Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

  7. Piffin | Jun 01, 2005 08:27am | #9

    That is kind of an oxymoron. Once you drop to second tier, ther ereally is no way to insertt the word or concept of best there.

    I almost consider Makita second tier on a lot of their tools. I second shopping for reconditioned or at Amazon fo rreal tools. In the courseof a lifetime, it will be less expensive and you will have more fulfillment

     

     

    Welcome to the
    Taunton University of
    Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
     where ...
    Excellence is its own reward!

    1. Nails | Jun 01, 2005 09:19am | #11

      "That is kind of an oxymoron. Once you drop to second tier, ther ereally is no way to insertt the word or concept of best there. "

      I don't agree with that. you're saying that the elite can be compared with one another and judged to be better or not. But once you down grade they are considered to be all identical.

      perhaps to you or me they are, because we would never consider using or buying them. In in amongst themselves, surely one might be considered to perform better than another.

      another way to look at is to say that if you look at a pro athelete one might judge who he considers to be the best. - But you can't judge who you consider to be the best amateur?! sure you can. look at tools the same way, You got  your pros and you and your amateurs. If you're looking at the pros, the rest don't compare. so from that stand point they are all the same, but it all depends how you look at it.

      Edited 6/1/2005 2:23 am ET by nails2

      1. Piffin | Jun 01, 2005 10:12pm | #14

        No, I am not saying they are all alike. It is simple use of language. the word 'best' is a superlative. That which it is applied to is rated by use of the word to be far above the rest. Any tool that rates far above the rest of the pack in second rate tools is not a second rate tool. It is a contender! Worthy of reclassification with the leaders.Now if you want to use the word better amoung the peers, I can go along with that, but I can't see dumbing down the language to wrap it around a concept. better to learn to use the language to say what you mean.words mean something. 

         

        Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

        1. User avater
          BillHartmann | Jun 02, 2005 12:09am | #16

          What I like is the question What is the Best (siding, saw, flooring, etc) without givin any idea of how they measure "best" or the conditions under which it will be used.

        2. Nails | Jun 02, 2005 04:28am | #20

          the word 'best' is subjective. In the world of piffin best is used as a superlative, and there's abslutley nothing wrong with that. To another the 'best' may simply mean that it simply beats out the others for what ever reason. The best by how far needs to be determined.

          What you say is true, some may be viewed to be so much better in fact, that they may be considered the next level.

          but like I said before it depends on ones point of view. I still disagree with your 1st post, what you say now makes a little more sense to me, but I think will still agree to disagree to some extent. and there's nothing wrong with that, and I still respect your opinion and enjoy reading your posts.

          nails2

           

           

           

           

           

           

          1. Piffin | Jun 02, 2005 05:07am | #21

            I'll agree that it's in my nature to tend toward absolutes, but listen here, I'm a warning you. Duck before I hit you with this here dictionary. It's a heavy one!"In the world of piffin best is used as a superlative, "I'm not sure which world nails lives in, but in my dictionary, the very definition of "best" is " the superlative of good"POV or not, words still have meanings and communication with other people of the same cuultural grouping works best when you use common words and phrases. Wanna go invent your own meanings, that's fine too, but then you need a group of people to go along with you and start a new cultural grouping and write your own dictionary and hire translators.It all sounds pretty confusing to me, trying to reinvent the language and all...Thanks but I'll stick with what we have now, even with all its shortcomings
             

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          2. storme | Jun 02, 2005 05:32am | #22

            It will be interesting to watch the chinese designed tools arrive. Grizzly has a line of cheap chinese built tools they sell. The interesting thing is that they market these based on their components (i.e. Johnson motors, Jacobs chucks, etc). IIRC, FHB had an article where they dissected good and bad tools so you could see the difference: plastic transmission, etc.I can imagine a scenario where someone starts selling no-name tools using stock (i.e. old) designs but with good quality materials for less money than the Bosch's of the world. Anyone have any experience with the Grizzly tools?example:
            http://www.grizzly.com/products/items-list.cfm?key=300020&sort=price

          3. User avater
            JeffBuck | Jun 02, 2005 07:11am | #24

            "Anyone have any experience with the Grizzly tools?"

             

            I've used them ... never owned them. Buddy of mine from school ... his Dad had a whole Grizzly shop.  They lived close enough to Grizzly HQ that they'd get an even better price driving up and picking the tools up themselves.

            Hard core rednecks ... that just raved about their offshore tools.

            Most of the stuff was a coupla years old when I met him ... been ... almost 10 years now ... and he's still remodeling/cabinetmaking with those same tools.

            He's got nothing but good to say about Grizzly.

            Jeff    Buck Construction

             Artistry In Carpentry

                 Pittsburgh Pa

          4. storme | Jun 02, 2005 07:48am | #25

            They're better known for their woodshop gear. I've never actually seen any Grizzly hand tools in the wild but was curious about them

          5. User avater
            JeffBuck | Jun 02, 2005 08:19am | #26

            Yup ... I was speaking strickly about the shop tools.

            Hand tools ... no experience what so ever.

             

            Good Q ... wonder if they're "just as good" ...

            or just riding the coat tails?

            Jeff    Buck Construction

             Artistry In Carpentry

                 Pittsburgh Pa

          6. Piffin | Jun 03, 2005 01:32am | #35

            I've got several grizzly tools. They are a great value, and fully functional.One thing I like very well about them is the iassembly and maint instructions. They actually make sense! 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          7. Nails | Jun 02, 2005 05:57am | #23

            current FHB table saw survey. Bosch is authors 'best' pick. The author does not say that as the best it is way beyond all of the others. In fact he specifically points out that it just beats out the Rigid.

            To have a clear understanding of one another, one needs to clarify. If I beat you in a foot race by a step, I still beat you and I'm the 'best.' If I beat you by 50 steps. I'm the 'best'. But then one could also clarify and say that I kicked your butt.

            I've got a dictionary too. OXFORD: best adjective of most excellent kind; most satisfactory. The 'most satisfactory' of second tier tools is I think what the whole point of the original post was. not the 'more satisfactory'

            you're obviously going to stick to your view that only the top of the line tools can have a 'best', and that any other category can not have a best. That is fine, I'm not going to start throwing books at you.

            In my view anything in life can be compared and rated accordingly. and that's the world I live in.

             cheers

            PS "it all sounds pretty confusing to me, trying to reinvent the language and all...Thanks but I'll stick with what we have now, even with all its shortcomings"

            you acknowledge the short comings of cumunicating in language, then do you not think it is better to clarify at times, rather then assume that we all think alike?

            Edited 6/1/2005 11:12 pm ET by nails2

          8. BillBrennen | Jun 02, 2005 09:14am | #27

            Piffin,Great post. I agree with you on the common language concept. It is much easier to learn to use the English language skillfully than it is to invent a new language that is "better." What if the makers of measuring tools all used a different definition of the inch?BillP.S. When did this site do away with the awful spell-checker? What they have now looks and works like what is in my word processor. I stayed away for years, and never heard that it had been changed.

          9. Nails | Jun 02, 2005 04:57pm | #28

            Bill what you and piffin are missing is that no 2 people think exactly alike. not everyone may have piffins higher understanding of the english language. piffin might say ..well then..learn the language. But really, are you going to teach everyone on the planet to have the exact same understanding of every english word that exists? I don't thk so. hopefully we all have a generally understanding of what we are trying to communicate to one another.

            I think it was Bill Hartman that talked about 'best' needing to be qualified, in his post.There are times when things need to be clarified. Please to not tell me that you have never said anything to your wife that you thought was perfectly clear, but she took to have a completely different meaning.

             Nobody is trying to reinvent the english language whatsoever. piffins sarcasm was uncalled for, all I'm trying to say is that you could give me three tools of any grade and who is piffin to say that I couldn't detirmined that one is good, better and best. piffin is saying that 'best' does not exist in that category. If one is said to be the 'best' then it has to be so good that it no longer fits that category. 

          10. Sancho | Jun 02, 2005 05:16pm | #29

            When I was going through trade school a good friend of mine and my mentor used to say "Ron I dont get up behind any tools..I cant even tell who makes the ones I own, If I need a tool, I go buy a tool.. I dont worry about names just the ones to do the job.."

            he owned a lot of Harbor frieght tools and swore by them because of their warranty, if they broke he just took'em back and got another.

            I dont buy HF tools but for the average HO who aient going to beat them up and use them for the occasional job..why not...

            They worked for my bud who did high end remodeling...   

            Caution: This message may contain "For Official Use Only" (FOUO) or other "sensitive information" is not intended for non-official disclosure. Do not disseminate this message, except to persons who require it for official Breaktime purposes, without the approval of the individual originating this message or other authorized official of the Taunton University. If you received this message in error, please delete it.

          11. Piffin | Jun 03, 2005 01:45am | #36

            There was not a bit of sarcasm in my post. It was all right straight forward. I never even considered myself all that great ion ewnglish class, but I thing we covered verb tenses pretty well by the timne I had finished fifth grade.. There's nothing hard about it, just basic grammar.Gopd
            Better
            BestNow I am going to throw ina little sarcsaasm - wanted to highlight it so you could tell...
            I'll bet you were standing on the sidlines cheering when Bill Clinton said, " It depends what the meaning of 'is' is" 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          12. Nails | Jun 03, 2005 05:28am | #39

            "There's nothing hard about it, just basic grammar.

            GopdBetterBest"

            Wow......that's what I've been trying to tell you! You're the one trying to say that because 'best' is a superlative to good that it can not exist in some categories. I think when the original comment was made about it being an oxymoron, it was said somewhat tongue in cheek. which I thought was a good, funny comment. Because we as 'professional' tool users would never consider 2nd tier tools worth using.

            as for Bill Clinton.....lol....never could stand the guy.

          13. BillBrennen | Jun 03, 2005 08:39am | #40

            Nails2,The phrase "best second-tier tool brands" is a meaningless abstraction, unless bolstered by further clarification.Consider a fir tree 60 feet tall. Where is the "highest mid-level branch" located? It is an impossible question to answer, not enough information. The "highest branch exiting the trunk below 40 feet from the ground" is a question with a definite answer.Abstractions have their place, but sloppy communication is not their best use. To quote Paul Simon (the musician), "One man's ceiling is another man's floor."Regards, Bill

          14. Nails | Jun 03, 2005 09:16am | #41

            Bill...don't disagree with anything you are saying there. very well put. goes along with what I have been trying to say with regards for the need for things to sometimes be clarified.

            In the orgianal post. The title can only be so long. I do believe the aurthor went to establish what the qualifactions were that he was looking for. (to some degree)

            My wife who is alot more astute than I am quickly asked me "hasn't he ever seen a car commercial where they say best in it's class" 

            cheers, nails2

          15. MisterT | Jun 03, 2005 12:57pm | #42

            I am the worlds tallest midget!!ACTUALLY, IT'S QUITE GOOD ON TOAST!

             

          16. User avater
            JeffBuck | Jun 04, 2005 08:06am | #44

            well sure ...

             

            but what ARE the best second tier tools?

            Jeff    Buck Construction

             Artistry In Carpentry

                 Pittsburgh Pa

    2. Shoeman | Jun 03, 2005 04:04am | #37

      Hard to believe you feel you have such a firm grasp on the English language - yet you can't seem to grasp the concept of say

      Best in show

      Best in class

      Best under $100

      Best poster with less than 21,000 posts?

  8. User avater
    NickNukeEm | Jun 02, 2005 12:44am | #17

    Sometimes I think we've turned into a bunch of tool snobs, of which I will raise my hand without hesitation and claim, guilty.

    On the other hand, Ive seen a lot of guys on the job lugging Ryobi, Skill, B&D and even Craftsman, and using them with no apparent complaint.  One qualification, however, is that for the most part, these guys were painters, flooring contractors, and drywall guys.  I'm guessing they don't need the top line stuff for what they plan on doing, just like the guy who started this post. 

    Most every remodeling/framing contractor I've been around recently, however, uses higher quality tools, whose higher cost also buys increased reliability.  Let's face it, I lose money if I have to stop and go buy a drill because my B&D crapped out (not that I use B&D, mind you.)  We're willing to spend a little higher now, to save in the long run.

    Not everybody has these priorities, however.  They may not need a bulletproof 12" SCMS.  They can settle, I cannot.  But I respect their choice.

     

    I never met a tool I didn't like!
    1. User avater
      JeffBuck | Jun 02, 2005 02:37am | #18

      my partner all thru trade school ...

      graduated .. went back to his small town ...

      found there were no "good contractors" to work for ... so he started out on his own.

      His GrandMa, wanting to help him out ... gave him a gift certificate to Sears for a coupla thousand .... 3 or 4K.

       

      This was before Sears carried all the other brands. So ... Matt go himself a truck full and shop load of Craftsman tools.

      Matt was just about the best carp/cabinet maker in class ... and turned out to be one of the best carp/cabinet makers in his town.

      A "better" tool may help .... but a good carp can compensate. Especially if all the tools start out new ... cheap or not.

      Kid builds some damn nice stuff with that Crapsman stuff ...

      I think if you actually know how to use .. and know the limitations of a tool ...

      it's just a matter of longevity ... not quality. "Homeowner" grade tools will simply wear out in a shorter time than "professional" quality. Might take less of a beating too ... but good kids like Matt always treat their tools well anyways.

       

      of course ... that said ... I tell my 75 year old Dad to stop buying "cheap replacement tools" .... I keep reminding him ... at yer age ... you are buying those for me ... not U!

      Jeff    Buck Construction

       Artistry In Carpentry

           Pittsburgh Pa

      1. Piffin | Jun 02, 2005 03:56am | #19

        I'll havve to admit - there was a time when Sears had some decent tools on the rack with their name on...But that was before your time, young'un 

         

        Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

        1. csnow | Jun 02, 2005 06:22pm | #30

          "I'll havve to admit - there was a time when Sears had some decent tools on the rack with their name on..."

          Exactly right. I have a decent collection of old Craftsman power tools with aluminum casings that simply will not die.  Pick them up a yardsales when I see them.  Same for B&D- the old stuff was quite good.  I have a Craftsman table saw from the 50's that will outlive us all.  Smooth and powerful.

  9. csnow | Jun 02, 2005 06:43pm | #31

    "I am not a professional builder but I want good quality tools. I am not going to spend big bucks for Dewlat Milwake etc. Not when I don’t use these tools everyday and it doesn’t cost time/money when a tool breaks down.

     

    What brands of tools should I be looking at? Black and Decker, Ryobi, Stanley?"

     

    For most power tools, it is just not worth it to buy B&D or Ryobi. It will cost you more in the long run. Depends upon the tool in question to some extent.  I learned the hard way with some bad B&D experiences. Even a hobbyist probably needs a quality drill, circ saw, recip saw, and a few others as a bare minimum.

    Most good brands offer lower end products in their lineup, plus as others have mentioned, there are reconditioned and used options.  Even the lower end Makita stuff (for example) is very durable.

     

    When it comes to cordless tools, the low-price brands are particularly poor.

  10. scott345 | Jun 02, 2005 10:27pm | #33

    yes look at them all, someone posted that each manufacturer has certain tools that are better than others this is true, check em out find what feels good to you, it's fun tool shopping so take your time. A couple of things to consider; certain tools your going to use more often than others, it may pay to spend more for those maybe a cordless drill for example (you don't have to get the highest voltage 14.4 or even 12v is acceptible in most cases). 

    Most people get by for years or a lifetime with homeowner quality tools I for example use a skill circular saw that I paid 10 dollars for at a yardsale about 15 years ago, it still works fine and I use it oten a new one of similar caliber will cost you under $50. Also I build furniture in my basement and just about every piece of equipment that I have I bought used (and I have a complete shop of middle to high quality tools) just something to think about.

    I'd also like to point out that crapsman tools as of recently have gotten better. Just look at the reviews of there new table saws. There cordless drills are more than exceptible for a homeowner, and there Proffesonal line of tools is just as good for the most part as other high end offerings. My brother in law after suffering with his second dewalt drill (which crapped out on the jobsite) went to sears since it was the closest store bought the craftsman proffesional drill and loves it.

  11. User avater
    xxPaulCPxx | Jun 03, 2005 04:49am | #38

    People here seem to like trashing Ryobi, But I bought their 18v kit with all the goodies and have used it ALOT.  Not quite daily, but one of those tool sis in my hand for hours at a time at least once a week - sometimes many days in a row.  I've since added their 18v Impact driver and their 18v angle drill.  I've also purchaced their portable table saw recommended in the latest issue of FHB as the Best Value.

    I've been staying away from Craftsman of late.  Too many times I find that they do something proprietary that doesn't really make sense.  Odd chuck key sizes, weird volt's for cordless tools, undersized table saw slots.

    Ridgid has been good to me on a couple of tools.  I loved their worm drive saw - cuts better than any conventional circular saw I've ever handled, but costs twice as much.  Well worth it IN HIS CASE.

    My advice, find the features you like and buy the tool in a cheap version.  If you find you use it so much you actually DO need better - buy it.  You're not out that much.

    Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA

    Also a CRX fanatic!

    1. Senna | Jun 03, 2005 07:42pm | #43

      I have the Ryobi BT3100. Great table saw. 

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    • Custom Built-ins With Job-Site Tools
    • Fight House Fires Through Design
    • Making the Move to Multifamily
  • Issue 331 - June 2025
    • A More Resilient Roof
    • Tool Test: You Need a Drywall Sander
    • Ducted vs. Ductless Heat Pumps
  • Issue 330 - April/May 2025
    • Deck Details for Durability
    • FAQs on HPWHs
    • 10 Tips for a Long-Lasting Paint Job
  • Issue 329 - Feb/Mar 2025
    • Smart Foundation for a Small Addition
    • A Kominka Comes West
    • Making Small Kitchens Work
  • Issue 328 - Dec/Jan 2025
    • How a Pro Replaces Columns
    • Passive House 3.0
    • Tool Test: Compact Line Lasers

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