I am at a friends for a bbq, righteous burgers, my favorite beer (Yuengling black and tan) We are hanging out on their recently built deck, and I lean up against the synthetic railing, which deflected impressively( 2+ inches at the post…) I give the post a whack with my knuckles, and it sounds hollow. Ohoh. so I gently tug on the top cap, and it isnt glued on. So, I subtly slide it off and look down a big hollow box. Looks like a pt 4×4 would slide in perfectly. It seemed to be locked in mainly with only deckmates and SS screws.
The deck itself is about 3 feet off the deck and has a real sturdy undercarriage, although all galvinized, not stainless.
So, thoughts of gently breaking the whole you need to redo your railings, or is it strong enough as it is…..
Jeff
Replies
It doesn't sound like it's installed correctly (no pt 4x4).But depends what product it is I guess.Maybe product doesn't call for 4x4 but definitely sounds like it needs it ! Tell him your concerns and maybe talk to an inspector about the product and the deflection it has.
Good luck!
george c.
Jeff:
I applaud your efforts at tact, however, you have described a potentially life-threatening situation.
If somebody dies from a failed rail, how are you going to feel? It happens.
Be tactful but insistent.
Different product, but I have friends who tumbled off a bad deck. She was OK after a yr. He'll never again walk correctly.
Do it.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I've found ...
"dude ... I ain't drinking beer on that death trap" ...
to be quite effective.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
"dude ... I ain't drinking beer on that death trap" ...
lol, we think alike! Straight to the point!
Posting from Chicago, where the weather is getting warmer and I'm anxiously waiting for our first porch-collapse tragedy of the year...
Not sure how I'd approach it, but you gotta tell 'em...the risks outweigh your silence. If it's sub-par work, the local building department is probably gonna want a list of other decks and porches that contractor built.
tony b.
A railing is required to handle a 250# lateral load. This is rediculous! the only reason for tact is if he built the railings himself.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
I applied oh, lets say a 235 pound lateral load (give or take a few pounds) at the post and noted about 2-3 inches of deflection.
He did do it himself.
Without acting like a know-it-all, SHOW him directly what he's got and ask him if he thinks/wants it to be like that. He truly may not have noticed that he ended up with deflection like that, and will prbably ask you what he shoul do about it.
>>"I applied oh, lets say a 235 pound lateral load (give or take a few pounds) at the post and noted about 2-3 inches of deflection.
The safety factor for railings is at least 3. It actually shouldn't fail at a 600# load given the design criteria of 200#. For conventional way of doing it, if you can move it at all by hand, it isn't near good enough.
OTOH, if you applied a 235# load and it "deflected 2-3 inches" but didn't fail, it might (MIGHT) actually be OK -- I guess these synthetic materials deflect more than wood before failure. Try 600# load and see what happens. ;-)
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
To my thinking, if it deflected that much, it is in failure!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
>>"To my thinking, if it deflected that much, it is in failure!
Hard to say. Good question -- how much deflection is failure for a deck rail. That much certainly not success. ;-)
I'm pretty confident if he applies 600#, it will break or a connection will fail. You likely saw the same article I did in JLC a while back -- they almost all break somewhere at 600#. If it doesn't, whoever makes whatever it's made of has got something there. ;-)
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
So, how would you apply a load horizontally to test it?
>>"So, how would you apply a load horizontally to test it?
A thick rope to my pickup hitch would "test" it and solve the problem simultaneously. ;-)
If the OP wants to make it not look like such a blatent demolition job, put a strain gauge in the loop. It will fail before you get to 600# I'll bet 10 2 1. ;-)
http://www.appliedscales.com/rentals.htm
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Not really, most of your weight is still vertically on the floor, by leaning against it, only a small portion of the 235# was exerted.
Put your bathroom scale on the wall, and lean on it, you'll be surprised how hard you will have to lean to exert even 100#.
Or.....try bench pressing 235#, then push the railing that hard with your back against something un-movable.
My POINT? The rail is NOT NEARLY strong enough, but then again, you knew that. Do your budday a favor, tell him. He should thank you w/ a case of Yuengling B & T, or Lager (my Fav).
after I noticed leaning on it got it to move, I increased pressure with my hip and the deflection increased. I stopped my little experiment after 3 inches of deflection.
Just bust the damm thing off now then IT HAS to be fixed right.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Damm, I miss that stuff
I'll revise my answer ...
if it's only 3 or 4 ft off the ground ...
I'd get drunk ... then fall thru the rail ...
then .. as I lay there ... holding that prerfectly full cup of beer that I didn't spill one drop from ...
I'd look up and then say ... "dude ... I ain't drinking no more beer on that death trap of a deck"!
solves all the problems ...
very tactful.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Exactly. I'd not bat an eye twice, just "accidently" break it off. Then offer to fix it of course ( paid).
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Damm, I miss that stuff
I actually got to see my "idea" happen once ...
not planned ... not a deck ...
but at a mobile home my brother rented a lifetime ago. Birthday party or some event ... bunch of his buddies ... mostly drunk and having a blast.
One guy ... Crazy Al ... (figures) ... walks up the wood steps to the porch/landing ... it's maybe 3ft off the ground.
He's talking and walking as usual ... always telling some BS story ... looking backwards as he walks ... get's about halfway up the steps ...
crash!
the little stairway gave way ... stringers broke right in half.
Al's twisted 'cause he's looking backwards to begin with ... so in a controlled slow-motion twist ... he rides the stairs down ... and ends up looking up ... flat on his back ... still has a death grip on his freshly poured beer ...
holding his arm straight up in the air ...
everyone rushed over to see if he's hurt ... and he yells ... not moving a muscle ...
"Didn't even spill a drop"!
he was still holding a full cup of beer ... then ... the stories began ... and grew ....and by the end of the nite ... that damn beer had saved his life!
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
<<the only reason for tact is if he built the railings himself.>>True story <G>;I was visiting my Mom and she was proudly showing off her new deck that my brother had built. Now he does pride himself in some perverse redneck way on doing things as half-arsed as possible sometimes, so I thought I'd better have a look.Sure enough, 12 feet off the ground and the only thing holding this whole contraption together (hand rail, deck to house, deck to posts) is deck screws from Home Depot.Now I would never want to insult my brother, but the spectre of dear old Mom plunging to the ground on her deck was bothersome enough that I gave a short seminar on the difference between bolts and deck screws. I don't think the idea of shear strength had ever crossed his mind. He of course resisted -- "It's working fine and has been since I built it. There is nothing wrong with this."He took my criticism pretty personally, and could not see any reason why deck screws wouldn't hold this whole thing together, until he had some time to think it over.But next time I visited there were bolts at all of the critical connections.On the other hand, the new stairs at the front of the house were terrible. The difference in the risers was such that one could not get up or down them without tripping. I am real picky about stairs, and almost said, "Whoever built these #$&! stairs ought to be kicked in the %$#@&^."But just before I opened my mouth it occured to me that it might have been him. It was. Really grateful that for once in my unneccessarily brusque life that the safety was engaged. <G>So your comment that I quoted above is a point well taken. I have learned that sometimes tact is essential if you want more than to just express an opinion.I don't know who I could attribute this quote to originally -- I heard it from Huston Smith;"To really tell the truth requires two people; one to speak it, and one to hear it."
"Now I would never want to insult my brother,"
but that's half the fun of having one/being one!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
So is that why everyone I work with thinks they're my brother? <G>
Jeff,
Maybe one tactful way would be to find the manufacturer's info on installation of post and show your friend. If it should have a 4x4, then it would be the manufacturer telling and not you.
If it is a "recently built deck", and it it constructed wrong, the original builders could be brought back to make it right. The literature from the product manufacturer would help in all cases.
Jeff
Whats your ocupation? Reason that I ask is if your in the buisness then your friend would probably welcome the input that you offer regarding his deck.
Doesnt mean that if construction isnt your trade that you dont know what your talking about but that would be the only way that I think tact would need to enter into how you approach him with the problem.
All that being said, I kinda like and would probably use Jeff Bucks approach; you know "the old shock and awe method" seams to get their attention.
Doug
well, heres where it gets sticky, I am a science teacher, not a builder, but I have put together a few decks, and spent a small mint in stainless hardware from Manasquan (the new pt stuff scares the bejeebers out of me) and this one in question was built by a colleagues spouse.
Jeff
Forget all about tact and print this thread out for them!
Problem solved.
Hell if they dont get a good laugh out of it and still feel compeled to redo the incorect railing then you did all you could.
You could always show him some of the threads where deck failure resulted in deaths/lawsuits/injuries........
Doug
I'm curious if the manu might be the common SevereWeather stuff available at yer neighborhood beLowes.
If it is then their directions don't include the mention of wood inserts inside the posts but I wouldn't put one up without it.
Those posts are just a tad too narrow to slide a 4x4 in there but 2 2x4s can be slightly ripped on edge and screwed together with less chance for the posts to later warp and split the composite.
half of good living is staying out of bad situations
Jeff,
Tell him you happened to mention the circumstance to a guy who had practiced personal injury litigation on behalf of plaintiffs for twenty five years. Its true, you did, since I am a lawyer and did represent plaintiffs for 25 years (have since retired to the much more amiable business of being a judge's (my former partner) law clerk). Tell him that the lawyer told you that the design and construction of the deck is not consistent with good, usual, customary and accepted practice and that, in the event of an accident, the matter will be indefensable. Tell him that the lawyer mentioned that there is no trick at all to falling only several feet and winding up a quadraplegic, and that the life care costs for quadraplegics are now at least in the seven figures, sometimes eight figures (we just settled an injury case in our court resulting from a fall for eleven million dollars). Tell him that no matter the extent of his homeowner's coverage, he might well not have nearly enough and might be looking at saying good-bye to the house, not just the deck, in case of a serious accident. Tell him you value your relationship with him too much to stay quiet while he faces such a potentially devastating liability exposure.
Great advice, try hitting return about every five lines or so. Makes good info a lot easier to read.
Bob
Tell him you happened to mention the circumstance to a guy who had practiced personal injury litigation on behalf of plaintiffs for twenty five years. Its true, you did, since I am a lawyer and did represent plaintiffs for 25 years (have since retired to the much more amiable business of being a judge's (my former partner) law clerk).
Tell him that the lawyer told you that the design and construction of the deck is not consistent with good, usual, customary and accepted practice and that, in the event of an accident, the matter will be indefensable.
Tell him that the lawyer mentioned that there is no trick at all to falling only several feet and winding up a quadraplegic, and that the life care costs for quadraplegics are now at least in the seven figures, sometimes eight figures (we just settled an injury case in our court resulting from a fall for eleven million dollars).
Tell him that no matter the extent of his homeowner's coverage, he might well not have nearly enough and might be looking at saying good-bye to the house, not just the deck, in case of a serious accident. Tell him you value your relationship with him too much to stay quiet while he faces such a potentially devastating liability exposure.
If you really want to get some opinions over the rail, snap some pics and post them here.
be guaranteed
half of good living is staying out of bad situations
yep, we're all paragons o' restaint here -
Forrest
I might say "look at this new-fangled deck post, I dont buy into how safe it is supposed to be (even if I knew it should have a 4x4 inside it)" then I would suggest inserting that 4x4 and offer to help him out for a beer or two.
what else can a buddy do?