I want to pose a circumstance to the good readers of BT and ask you comment as you see fit. Do realize that this may require some imagination on the part of the business owners who frequent this site as the practices described will be foreign concepts.
Business owner Steve does kitchens, baths, additions; smaller baths 15-20K, other projects 40-200k. Usually he has three jobs going at a time. He has a couple of guys who work for him and he rarely if ever picks up tools. Organization and coordination could be better. Missing materials, non-existent project drawings, things done out of sequence, things done over because they couldn’t be done right the first time, lingering punchlists, you get the picture. Deadlines come and go and there is always a mad rush before the inspector shows up.
His guys, Cooper and Raul, do their best given the situation. They keep an eye on things at each job, run for materials, supervise subs, communicate with the homeowner, etc. When ever they see something that needs to be addressed they bring it to Steve’s attention. These items would be something along the line of, you know you need a footing under that deck post, it can’t just go into the dirt; or, you know that deck railing post needs to be bolted to something structural; or, you can’t use those fastners in treated lumber; or, you know you have to flash around the chimney; or, you know you need to put silicone under that door sill; or, you know those shingles need to be back primed; or, shouldn’t we be putting a drain around the foundation…….These should be glaringly obvious oversights.
The usual response from Steve is “F
# that, nobody will see it” Initially Cooper and Raul would respond “Are you serious?” After the act played out several times they continued to mention the points of concern but had few expectations but still had genuine concers for the homeowner stuck with sub-standard work . Since some of Steve’s practices boarder on fraud, is silence from Cooper and Raul a crime of ommission or commission? All this in a region where the job market for carps is getting tight.
Replies
heh, heh, heh..the devil and the deep blue sea
cooper & raul oughta go in business for themselve
i got in a beef with my boss over standards in '75
after that i got to set my own standards
It's a crime of conscience, but for most working stiffs the paycheck comes before conscience.
Solar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
I don't think it can be blamed on the Carps at all. The responsibility lies entirely with the contractor as he is the one paying the carpenters and receiving cheques from the HO. The Contractor may also be held directly responsible, for corroding fasteners, leaking windows, punchlists etc.
"I don't think it can be blamed on the Carps at all. The responsibility lies entirely with the contractor as he is the one paying the carpenters and receiving cheques from the HO"Where have we heard this before? "I was just following orders." We're talking about all of the beaurocrats who magnified and carried out Hissler's vision in #### Germany. Try explaining this ethic to your kids and then sleep at night, knowing that you help spread the disease and sooner or later it will come back to bite you.With this attitude, a person loses either way. If they get caught, they are likely to be penalized. If they get away with it, then word spreads around and ultimately someone will pull the same sh*t on you. By the way, saying "everyone else is doing it" is the lamest of lame excuses. Corruption is the real reason why third world countries stay that way, and we don't want our nation heading down the same primrose path.I can see someone can get caught in this kind of situation once with a boss, because the carp didn't know what the contractor was like, but that revelation should be the cue to get other work ASAP, and not even stick around for completion of the current job if it can be helped. If a carp knowingly does substandard work, he is just as responsible as the boss.
You misinterpreted my response as trying to deal with an ethical situation Raul and Cooper find themselves in. I meant to deal with the legal side of this situation, I apologize for not explicitly stating this. None of these situations border on fraud, as work is being completed (be it sub-standard). In dealing with contracting and the law it there is alot of grey area, however I beleive had no work been completed and money had been taken, leaving the contract unfufilled then fraud could occur. Thus, neither Raul or Cooper can be held culpable for crimes of ommission or commission.
I don't think it can be blamed on the Carps at all. The responsibility lies entirely with the contractor as he is the one paying the carpenters and receiving cheques from the HO. The Contractor may also be held directly responsible, for corroding fasteners, leaking windows, punchlists etc.
I'm curious just how far you are willing to carry that logic. I'm a lead aircraft technician. If I tell my guys to cut corners to save time or money does that make it ok. If my Boss tells me to tell them to do it should I go along with it or tell my guys do it right and I'll bump the ready time regardlesss of the consequence.
At what point does it become ok to do the wrong thing just because the boss says so.
I think this was discussed at the end of WW11, Nuremberg if IRCC,
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
In dealing with "doing the right thing" it is a matter of personal discretion. The only advice I can offer you is you have to pick your battles. I am not sure you are in the market for advice as you seem to be doing ok as a lead aircraft technician, but that is all I have for you at the moment.
Suck it up for now then when things come around again, they should be on their own if the clients in the area expect that kind of work. Most don't care or know is my understanding.
On the other side of the coin... They can always demand more money to put up with the bs the owner does not. That is after all his job for the 'big' bucks. Not everyone wants to run their own company.
Interesting.
There was or is another thread going about whether carps should ever communicate to owners and the decision here seemed to be no.
In your case time to find a better boss IMO, or as has been suggested the two carps should start a business themselves.
I have walked from situations like this, I have been fired for telling bosses they are wrong and I won't do what they ask me to .
Welcome to construction in my town.
I have been dealing with this for too long and am about to move.
Woods favorite carpenter
hey, hey,hey.....let's finish the garage firstMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'm working on it, then looking to relocate.
Someone is going to enjoy that garage, I know I would. Woods favorite carpenter
Matt,
If you want me to ship you out some slate - shoot me an e-mail with your address.
Walter sorry about the hijack- didn't want to search other thread out
I found a local guy that had a few, so I'm set for now. Thanks so much for your consideration.
Woods favorite carpenter
There is also the aspect of liability...if the carpenters knowingly build/install/fix something that they know is incorrect, even if they were told to do it that way, they might be liable for any damages or injuries that might occur. Are you willing to stake your (and your families) life, reputation, and financial well-being on cutting corners? Are you going to tell the family of somebody that was hurt or killed that "it wasn't my fault, I was just doing what I was told"?
a buck will get you 20 that when something has to be fixed on the "contracter"s dime that Raul & Cooper get a load of $hit too!!
Been there, done that, got the t-shirt and opened a theme park...
Raul and Copper (if it is D.B. he dont need the $$) best start looking for a job cause this guy will end up folding, probably sooner than later.
.
.
"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion"
-Neil deGrasse Tyson
.
.
.
If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
What I used to do: Tell the client to call Steve and ask, is he going to fix that defective or substandard ________? I hated to undermine the boss, but I had to live with myself.
"Just Following Orders" will get you so far, but in issues where lives could be at stake, conscience has to enter at some point. At least that was the conclusion reached at Nuremburg!
CaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
I think that employees have a responsibility to speak up about matters which effect safety, first to the boss and, if he doesn't respond favorably, to the client.
But it's a different story when the boss declines to use the best materials or methods.
The carpenter isn't being paid to play Ralph Nader for the client. The client must protect his own interests; read and understand the contract, stay in touch with the building inspector and keep an eye out for discrepancies.
Once when i was real young and putting up aluminum siding the Boss said dont put the insulation boards in up high where the owner cant tell, I said no i cant be party to YOUR cheating, He did not fire me but i started looking for another job, After all if he was gonna cheat them im sure he would cheat me sooner or later.
a man who will steal 5 cents wortht of nails will steal anything else he thinks he can get away withMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
It's time for the carps to move on. The contractor isn't going to change his ways.
As to what they should do to protect clients--that's a hard one since there is so much grey area as to what is illegal and anything less is covered under their faduciary responsibility to the contractor. If they bad mouth work by the contractor resulting in a lawsuit and large amount of lost money for what is later determined to be within acceptable construction practices it could come back to bite them hard. Which carpenter wants to pick up a $50k hit?
Personally, I'd simply tell the home owner the boss is trying to cut too many corners and I'm moving on to a better quality outfit. Enough said. If they want things looked into more closely they can have someone else do it.
Good building!
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
It's time for the carps to move on.
I think they need to ask themselves if they want to stay in construction first.
Second question, if they want to stay, do they want to also run a business. ( marketing, sales, bookkeeping, stress, yada, yada, yada.....)
I would guess getting PO'd at your boss and/or situation has launched the majority of construction "businesses". And what is the mortality rate for these "businesses"? But their answer to the first questions may lead them in different directions as to what they look for in a different employer.
staying is going to get them painted with the same brush that their current employer is getting painted with (whether he knows it or not).
Bowz
Cooper and Raul have to grow some cajones. Cajones are an intregal component of carpentry skills.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07