In our area of Craftsman houses, we refer to bookshelves built into a wall between studs as built-in bookshelves. Can’t find info on Taunton, but I know you all build them!
I’m talking on a small scale here–our 760 square foot house needs bookcases that are flush in the walls–how do I do this? Start poking holes in the walls and hope I don’t hit anything? Nah….
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Replies
Hi Kodiak ,
Not sure exactly what you want to know but first off determine the depth or thickness of the wall , in other words if you have standard 2 X 4 walls the shelves would be rather shallow for books and such .
I you do have areas with more wall depth , select a location make sure no wires or pipes are running in that section first .
Often times on a built in like these I make a lap over face , so just the face is outside of the wall in the room , that way you can screw them in behind the face , you will need backs of course as well . Less than 8" is just too small for books imo .
hope this helps dusty
Thank you. Does help. I am a rank beginner who walks around my new house eyeballing walls to come down and shelf insets to make, but I don't know how to! So, I really need something to read about this type of construction. Like--I don't know how to line the stud cavities to make them look like boxes as opposed to naked walls. I barely understand your use of the term lap, but I'm guessing it means to sort of frame the opening, yes? That would give a little more depth to the shallow shelf.Maybe what I see in pictures is actually cases built into the walls--in effect, taking some floor space to kinda make the walls fatter to accommodate 8- to 10-inch deep shelves??Thanks for taking your time with this. We just bought this house and I am chomping at the bit to DO some renovation, but won't just start punching holes in walls! (Also, it's a pretty darned small house and I want to get my books put away!)--Laurel
Laurel ,
Luckily for us all there is usually more then one way to do things ,
I would build cabinets that fit the areas with a face frame that will cover the front edge and stick out or lap over the opening to trim it out at the same time.
This would require sheet goods typically either plywood ripped to width , with the solid face .
Use a 1/4" back and the units are sort of self contained , you do no prep to the opening .
regards dusty
Thanks, Dusty. I'm seeing this now--basically build a box and set it in a space I've made between studs. I'm stuck on the idea of depth--esthetically, can I make the box deeper than the wall cavity, so it is not flush with the wall on the room side (sticks out a couple of inches)? If I do this, the plywood would show, so would need to face that?Do I need to hire a good carpenter to build a unit, learn from him/her, and then try it on my own?I'm determined and not scared of trying things, just don't want to botch up our house.
You can't go wrong , as long as you dont hit any wires , cables , or water pipes or ducting you will be fine .
Yes the case can come out into the room and be built to accomodate.
Depending on the wall , you may be able to place a header over the opening and remove several or more studs to create a wider space . The opening could be like a door way opening is in structure .
dusty
Thanks for the encouragement--I'm always willing to hear when I should not attempt something. What the heck? (many, many years ago, I had a job doing interior remodeling--all experience gained OTJ.)If I don't do a good job, I'll get my brother who lives in CA (we're in WA) to come and fix it!These bookcases will be great practice for demo-ing three interior walls! I also want to remove the ceiling over the kitchen.... >:-DSince I had a structural engineer here to look at the stick-built truss system, I know that the interior walls are OK to remove, so your idea of expanding the opening sounds fine, indeed. Pretty, too. I hope I'm able to contribute someday to this forum. You have taken the ideas that have been swimming in dizzying circles in my head and given them form!--Laurel
" You can't go wrong , as long as you don't hit any wires , cables , or water pipes or ducting you will be fine ."
My experience with built-ins is that which ever wall you choose, the wires and pipes move over to it before you open it up.
So you caught that huh !
dusty
Where/ How do you plan on putting insuation back between the studs?r2
Interior walls.
Using a hammer, tap gently on the wall, moving sideways, and listen carefully. You can start next to a door where you know there's a stud, to get an idea of the difference in sound.
When you're satisfied that you've found a space that suits you, use a 6d or 8d finish nail to explore.
OK. That works! Um, I assume I need to stick to interior walls, yes?--Laurel
I assume I need to stick to interior walls, yes?
That's correct.
Yes, you need to stick to interior walls because there's insulation (or there should be) in the exterior walls.
What are your walls made of, drywall (sheetrock) or plaster? If drywall, an inexpensive stud finder will do a pretty good job of finding studs. If plaster, you may want to reconsider recessed bookcases because it becomes a job that can be quite a bit more involved.
Also, keep in mind that you only have 16" between studs (center-to-center) so that's 14 1/2" free space. By the time you line the sides (with 3/4" pine, for example) you'll have 13" for books. Unless, of course, you remove studs and header them off. If it's a bearing wall, the header size needs to be considered carefully.
More to think about.... thank you for adding to my learning.We have sheetrock and this house seems to be built with studs 16 o.c.You have described what I want--tall, narrow bookcases. Didn't manage to tell you all that, did I? So I don't need to header off the studs, cuz I just want to build between 'em. May have to do something at the top end if I want to match the height of window trim rather than looking chaotic. Have to figure out if I can balance a ceiling-height unit with the other features of the tiny rooms (remember, 760 square feet!).OK. If I line the sides with pine, can the bookshelf stick out into the room and require less finishing than if I use plywood? I'm a paint-girl and would like to finish the tops with something like crown molding.
Here are a few boxes made to fit between studs. They are simple 1/2" plywood sides, tops, bottoms and shelves enhanced with 1x2 face frames. Glue and staples for the boxes and glue and 16 ga finish gun nails to hold the face frames on. Used Kreg pocket hole system to make the face frames sturdy.
View Image
I had the wall depth I needed for the job so the face frames fit right to the drywall.
If you build the boxes carefully and to the depth you really need you can slide them into precut slots between the studs, making sure that the fronts of the boxes are in plane and level. Nail or screw them to the sides of the studs to hold them in place. Don't overdo the number of fasteners.
To find studs I rap the walls with my knuckles to find the approximate location and then tap in a 6d finish nail several times to pinpoint the edges of the stud. Good for when you are attaching base or crown and need a precise location. For the type of holes you will need, just plunge your saw into the wall, go left and right until you find the stud and then cut vertically.
You may encounter wiring, so it's best to punch an inspection hole before cutting. You can always buid boxes to straddle wiring whether it's vertical or horizontal. I would try to avoid any stud bays that have pipes, but you could work around that, too.
Now you can rip a strip of finish material to wrap the entire set of boxes sticking out from the wall. Maybe use contact cement to avoid having to fill nail holes. Instead of wood you could wrap with drywall strips and tape, finish and paint to match the wall.
Finally, you can build a face frame to fit the face of the box array. You'll have vertical pieces for the two outside edges of the array as well as for covering the voids created by the studs and then the two horizontal pieces for the top and bottom.
If you can bring the boxes close to the floor you can wrap the bottom to match your baseboard. Search through the Photo folder for examples of that.
Edited 10/4/2008 11:21 am ET by RalphWicklund
That was me earlier, posting as kkodiak, but that's my brother's screen name; I'm here as myself now (couldn't make it work before!), lahgitana.Thank you so much for the photos! And for telling me about the Photos section here. Heck! I get it now! I'll have to go look up the face frame helper you talked about, Kreg pocket hole system. Those boxes are lovely and just what I want. I don't have that depth inside the walls (I don't think!), but can still let the boxes stick outside the wall.
Just some reading for your design stage that may be of interest.
Cheers
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages/?msg=12200.1 http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages/?msg=16318.1 http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages/?msg=9444.1
Yes! I have been looking for this in books, in images, in my own gut reaction to "pleasing" and "argh." Thank you. I read every post, including the very bad jokes!Our little house is on the verge of becoming a Craftsman--there remains some attention to detail that makes the house sing. The other stuff has got to go cuz it offends my senses! I can't tell you how charged up I am by this info, and by this forum: I felt a little shy about asking my question, but I have been given photos, drawings, and now mathematics to help me design what I have envisioned.Regarding a comment about folks who kind of surprised themselves by becoming carpenters: my first job with my brand-spankin' new and shiny college degree (chinese and linguistics!?) was in interior carpentry. I had a ball--learning on the go and learning to SEE the details. This was in about 1981 and I don't remember seeing a pre-hung door; we had to build the door surround.I'm so jazzed I can't wait to think on paper!Thank you.
Rez,
Thanks again for the links. I'm engrossed in The Old Way of Seeing now and when I drive around here in Tacoma in the 1890s parts of town, I look for the proportions and the organized whimsy the architects produced.
We're getting ready, today, to take walls down, so my built-ins have to wait for now. It occurs to me that I may have to wait until we know for sure we're replacing our flat, 8-foot sheetrocked ceiling with a cathedral ceiling (faced with T&G). Eeek! New angles there to consider to carry over elsewhere in the house.
Always wise to not force an answer involving design and let things take some time to filter thru.
Often times an old house's makeup will decide some issues for you with little decision involved on your part.
Cheers
Good morning! I agree--have to let the elements settle and see the design that is presented. Many thanks for your contribution to my house!
i built into the stud bay on a interior wall in the kitchen of my home
i now have room for over 300 cans
as the wall backed on a stair case with a closet on the other side and no basement i also built im the dishwasher and some deeper compartments
i we installed adjustable shelving also
due to the 2 x 4 depth and 1/2" build up for the former drywall plus 3/4 frame around the spaces i obtained 4 3/4 " of depth before installing the overlapping doors
I submitted this project to finehomebuilding a couple of years ago and they werent interested at the time
can the bookshelf stick out into the room
Yes, they can. In "classic" Arts & Crafts, you'd make the cases as tall as the high wainscot in the room, and Finish with a shelf spanning the cases.
Above the cases, an at frieze or paper would tie the Nom together visually. I'd actually plan on the casework being a compromise depth and assume a need for a space behind the buck's for the inevitable electrical cable (or conduit). With 4-5 stud bays open, and all of those 1 1/2" spaces to deal with, heating off the bays and dealing with the casework as a unit of tall, narrow spaces might be easier.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
thanks for comments--<an at frieze or paper would tie the Nom together visually. >Can you help me understand this, please? I do understand the theory of tying the case design and house together visually.<all of those 1 1/2" spaces to deal with>
--one and a half foot spaces between the studs?It seems like I'll have the same challenges if I work with tall cases or wide cases. What am I missing about this? (Other than I hardly know what I'm doing anyway!)
Can you help me understand this, please? I do understand the theory of tying the case design and house together visually.
In classic craftsman design, the "chair rail" moves up to around 54"- 60" above the floor. Under that horizontal line would be either wood paneling or some other wall finish. Above the chair rail, yet another finish is used. The "tie together" aspect comes in fitting built-in features into that horizontal order of things. So, if we have a wall of bookcases, we can carry trim aligned to the top around the room. Having done that, either the upper portion is finished as a frieze, in paint or paper. Or, alternately, the lower portion is finished in some uniform way. The illustrations from Craftsman magazine often show this better than descriptions can.
<all of those 1 1/2" spaces to deal with>--one and a half foot spaces between the studs?
Well, studs (the ones we might presume are "left' between bays) 'mandate' a gap between the cases unless we "gang" the cases togrher. (Stud framing being about 1.5" wide per each.)
As a round number, we call the edge thickness of a case 1.25", then a bay-by-bay install would visually "read" as 1.25" edge | 1.5" wide stud | 1.25" edge. (and we still have not addressed finishing the exposed edge of the framing-grade stud). So, from book-to-book, if you will, repeats 4" apart. If, instead, we merely butt cases together, the book-to-book spacing could drop down to 1.5", which is much thinner (and adds to the "verticality" of the casework).
It seems like I'll have the same challenges if I work with tall cases or wide cases. What am I missing about this?
Well, one other answer could be to bulk the wall out, the entire wall, that is, to around 12" framed, would let the cases "flush" to the new wall surface, which may have been your original intent. (A clever person might make matching niches in the opposite wall face in the spaces over the bookcases in the opposite wall.)
Now, making that make sense in a specific house can be interesting--one can contemplate how bookcases in a living room would complement niches in a dining room, lets say. Except if the dining room is 90 degrees to the living room <sigh>. (That's why we design types are supposed to make the alleged big bucks <sigh>).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
CapnMac--
hokey-smoke! Thanks! I'm almost there--
I understand the idea of chair rail as design guidance.
Great idea to bulk the wall out--now I'm wondering if I can get away with that on an exterior wall, adding insulation, to be able to build a bookcase on either side of a bay window, with a same-depth window seat connecting the two.... (this is why people hire design professionals. like you!)
I think I understand your discussion of the stud bays, but please confirm. (I promise to go find Craftsman magazine....)
As a round number, we call the edge thickness of a case 1.25", then a bay-by-bay install would visually "read" as 1.25" edge | 1.5" wide stud | 1.25" edge. (and we still have not addressed finishing the exposed edge of the framing-grade stud). So, from book-to-book, if you will, repeats 4" apart.
--here you're describing cases built between studs only?? I'm sorry, I'm not getting the 4" apart idea--I know it's the total of the stud plus case edges; why should I know the 4" measure? I can see that I'd have to account for the 4" to understand the finished width of the case (available space for books, under 12" because of the facing still to be accounted for). OH wait! Do you mean that there would be 4" of wood to frame between cases?
If, instead, we merely butt cases together, the book-to-book spacing could drop down to 1.5", which is much thinner (and adds to the "verticality" of the casework).
--here it sounds like removing the studs and headering off where necessary?? I'm missing a middle piece to help me understand. (Remember, please, that I'm a beginner.)
I'll have to go find some pictures and drawings to bring this all together for me. I do appreciate your time and certainly don't want to abuse it. If you have a reference book (plus Craftsman mag) for me to use, I'll get it! (Gotta run to work.)
here you're describing cases built between studs only?? I'm sorry, I'm not getting the 4" apart idea--I know it's the total of the stud plus case edges; why should I know the 4" measure?
Well, I'm presuming you are not wanting a 1.5' wide space 6-9" deep between individual-bay, cases, so that suggests needing a stile spanning that gap.
A stud-bay width case will be around 12-13" clear opening--a 4" stile is a third of that. which might make for an odd proportion of vertical spaces. Might could get that space down to a 3" stile (a very traditional stile width for face frames). However, it was my impression that you really wanted something thinner, "lighter" to pick a word.
Which would bring us back to a headered-off opening spanning the wanted width of case work. This is not a terribly complicted bit of framing, really. Especially so if "we' bulk the wall out to tuck the casework flush into the new wall. You'd frame the new wall where it wants to go, then whittle on the existing wall (after stripping it down to studs on at least the insde face).
It's not rocket science, but there are some cool things experience can teach. Like not running the cases down to the floor, but only down to the base board (or, perhaps, twice the base board height, which then allows a spot to put the electrical outlet that just sprang into the way while we were talking about this; the pipe for the old in-wall gas heater and the cast-iron sewer stack snuch in the second you looked away after thinking "built-ins would be perfect there" <g>).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I have to think about your description when my brain is charged--long day already. In the meantime, hahahhahaa on those danged electrical outlets and that sewer pipe that just kinda wandered into my perfect space. Fair warning that whatever I do, there are going to be surprises!
Here are a couple of quick ideas to help visualize
top one has 1/2 plywood sides, 1/4 plywood back, and 1"x3/4" facing to cover the plywood edge. One piece of 1/2 ply is inside the book area, one piece is on the exterior to cover the drywall edge.
Bottom one has 3/4" solid wood, 1/4 plywood back, a cove molding all the way around to cover the drywall edge.
The rectangles with the X in them represent your wall studs at 16" centers.
TFB (Bill)
PS. on screen none of the diagonal line show very well, if you print it out it all should show up.
Edited 10/4/2008 11:13 am by ToolFreakBlue
Thanks, Bill. I posted earlier as kkodiak (long story, but that's my brother's screen name); I'm here now as myself, lahgitana.Anyway. Right after I finished printing your drawing this morning, we were thrown off the internet!! Just re-connected. I'm still thinking about the drawings, which came out fine, thank you very much. Would you recommend one over the other?--Laurel
One over the other? The ply will give you more interior space.
But will need to be faced on the exposed edge.
Ply would be less expensive too.The 3/4 pine would be fewer pieces to fabricate.
I'm puzzled of what would be a good edge profile though.
TFB (Bill)