A guy around the corner decided to do an addition and remodel. He and his wife were going to be acting GC.
Got all his bids, ducks in a row and started the project.
Footers poured, block foundation set.
Framer comes.
Oh oh. Block/footers are all messed up, “I think I can work with it but it will cost you $$$$ extra.” HO pays
Plumber comes, does his work.
Electrician (good ‘friend’ of the couple) come and does his work.Finishes his work…except that other stuff. What other stuff? He says ‘this and that’ wasn’t included in my original quote etc etc etc $$$$
Roofer gets there, starts his work after lunch (flat roof FYI) gets moving removing old roof stuff. Pulls out the tarps, puts em down tells HO “Uh OH, I quoted you for removal of 2 old roofs, not 4!” $$$$
Stucco guy starts his job, does 60% disappears. Week later, HO gets with him Stucco guy says “This job, I can’t finish it for the money your giving me, blah blah blah” HO ponies up more $$$$ to get the job done {he was stuck because it wasn’t a large job so getting another guy to finish it would be impossible)
{insert other jobs and crews here}
Tile guy {HIGHLY recommended by the tile store, best in the biz) comes in “Oh this walk in shower is all messed up.” “There is too much slope in the pan, I will have to tear it all out and redo. Their shouldn’t be hardly any slope” “I quoted you $ for the tile, but I can fix all this and tile for $$$$$$”
{pending, I advised them to halt}
So their $60K, approx 300 sq ft addition is now in the neighborhood of $110K and they are not finished.
Discuss.
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“If you come to a fork in the road, take it”
Replies
I feel for the guy, but how about a good contract to prevent this?
.....ducks in a row.....
Obviously, he didn't.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
sounds a little bit like a "GC" who didn't get firm contracts, and a little bit like a group of contractors trying to take the guy for a ride. I feel sorry for him.
Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Remodelerator
I am going through a small remodel right know and have had 2 different trades try that #### with me. I just laughed at both of them and told'm to get work'n or get out. The pity party went like this for both. They bid the work got the contract and started the work. They next day they are saying it was more than they bid...BLAH BLAH BLAH, I wasn't expecting this, that, and the other thing.
The first guy was the painter complaining about plaster repairs...all of which were superficial...not structural. His proposal said, "extensive plaster repair". Sorry bud, you saw the rooms...all were empty when you came through...do the work or leave.
The second was the flooring guy. I bugged him for 3 weeks to give me his price..."Don't worry, I am fair"..."I'll take care of you"...OK, I said. Fair enough. He scheduled with out a deposit. Worst case if he shows up with a ridiculous price we can shake hands and he can leave.
He shows up and we review the project. It is 2 phases. Install and finish 200 sqft upstairs along with refinish of 120 sqft existing floor, sand and refinish the steps (13), and replace 4 treads along with a railing that sits on the bottom three steps. The ssecond phase is 300 sqft install down stairs. We agree on $3600. Later that day he is crying about missing the bid by $2200.
My impression is that a lot of these guys pull this BS on every job and every so often they get a ham who will pony up the extra cash.
"sounds a little bit like a "GC" who didn't get firm contracts, and a little bit like a group of contractors trying to take the guy for a ride"
Maybe. But there's also probably a lot of not knowing up front where problems might arise, not knowing what to look for when a sub does his work, and not enough up-front design work and specs/scopes of work done.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
I agree. A good contractor can't run a problem free job, but he knows the best and most economic ways to deal with problems as they arise. He knows where most of the potential problem areas are, and he discusses them in depth with his subs before taking bids - with the understanding that issues already discussed won't be billed as an extra later. He knows how to get the best out of people who work for him - be it subs or employees.
He knows when a sub has a legitimate extra, and when he's bluffing, and where to draw the line. And he knows when to pay progress payments, and how much is proportional to work completed, so that he doesn't get upside down, and then it becomes difficult to get the sub to finish his work.
A good contractor knows his subs, has a working history with people he respects and trusts, who trust and respect him.
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edited to add: I don't know how many times I've had a sub encounter a problem, and their initial response is some expensive "overkill" fix. Or they propose a cheap fix that creates a big expense for another sub down the line. Part of the problem is that their vision is limited to their narrow field, whereas the general contractor has to have a vision of the big picture.
"I needed a drink, I needed a lot of life insurance, I needed a vacation, I needed a home in the country. What I had was a coat, a hat and a gun."
Raymond Chandler's Philip Marlowe
Edited 5/18/2007 12:06 pm by Huck
"Part of the problem is that their vision is limited to their narrow field, whereas the general contractor has to have a vision of the big picture. "RIGHT!But this DIY HO does not know what he's doing and he though he would save a bundle by not hiring a pro.
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But this DIY HO does not know what he's doing and he though he would save a bundle by not hiring a pro.
I think we need to frame that or engrave it on a plaque.[email protected]
what a waste of good plaque material. Keep that plaque on your teeth, where it belongs;)
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why are the contractors always seen first as the bad guy???From what I read here, maybe one or two of the tradesmen were working him over and pumping the well, but most sound more like he just didn't know what he was doing as a GC and did not do his job completely or correctly.he did not inspect and suprvise block work for instance. He didn't know he had four layers of roofing....none of us were there of course, and the story is third hand already...
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why are the contractors always seen first as the bad guy???
A bad contractor is like a bad cop. It only takes one to poison the well. So you might have 50 good contractors for every bad one, but the bad one creates larger ripples (excuse me while I mix metaphors). Whereas most of the 50 just quietly go about doing a good job without much fanfair.
Then combine 1 or 2 bad subs with misunderstandings, unrealistic HO expectations, poor planning, and a hurry by some of the subs to get to more lucrative jobs... and suddenly you've spent twice your budget.
I know quite a few folks hereabouts get defensive when a HO comes on and complains about a contractor (and can give numerous examples of the problem being the HO's fault), but if they were honest, I'm sure most of the pro's here know of more than one bad contractor in their area. Someone they wouldn't do business with no matter what. So it isn't real hard to figure that the HO may have come across one of those yahoos who are giving the other 50 a bad name.
jt8
"One of the true tests of leadership is the ability to recognize a problem before it becomes an emergency." -- Arnold H. Glasgow
"Someone they wouldn't do business with no matter what."YepAnd guess who those guys prey on?! They deal only with HO DIYs who don't know any better! So there is a higher than average chance this guy got himself stuck with the bottom feeders;)
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we can all only speculate on much of what happened to drive the cost up.
My main point was for whomever may read the forum... beware.
It's tough out there, and even if your like myself and believe everyone is just.......some aren't.
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"If you come to a fork in the road, take it"
Edited 5/18/2007 5:52 pm ET by Sailfish
Yeah, I was aware the warning is for both contractors and for HOs.And every year about this time, when the home and garden shows pop up, the weekend newspapers have articles warning the elderly and otherwise ignorant HOs to watch out for the typical scams from travelors that start out, "While I an in the neighborhood..."
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Someone here uses the tag line:
"If it was easy, anyone could do it"
Not to take any sympathy from the HO/GC in this case, or justify anyone's BS, but how often have you contracted for work with a HO who intentionally left a few items out and then tried to get you to include them as freebies? Or they try to negotiate a low price because, "you're already here and it'll only take a few minutes". I'll admit that I've fallen into that trap a few times before realizing that the first item they nicked me on was just the beginning of a long list of "honeydews" that "honey" won't or can't "dew".
What it always comes back too is that the contract has to include an item by item accounting of everything to be done. Extras have to be defined, spelled out, with an hourly rate.
Honestly, when I encounter poor workmanship from the trade that went before me, something that adds time to my work, I take it in stride and deal with it. I know that few tradesmen take their work seriously so if I don't allow for that probability when figuring my price, it's just short sighted of me.
He should have paid for an estimate from a qualified remodeler.
I don't Know what I am doing
But
I am VERY good at it!!
Indeed. This should be printed and given to all future potential customers as a warning as to why it makes sense to pay for a detailed proposal.
IMHO, a HO is almost always going to run into some of this. Without multiple projects where he can establish good subs, he/she is playing Russian roulette. Plus some subs give better treatment to GC's who are giving them multiple jobs. A HO with a single project might pay a premium for less than premium service.
So all you can do is try to map out as much ahead of time as you can and get things specifically detailed in writing.
But as a HO, you're still going to get these problems acting as your own GC no matter how well you plan everything out.
jt8
"One of the true tests of leadership is the ability to recognize a problem before it becomes an emergency." -- Arnold H. Glasgow
Sadly that stinks.
I put most (if not all the blame/burden) on the HO.
However, you would think that sometimes, somewhere's things would work out like they should.
The stucco guy played them.
As did the tile guy.
I cannot account for the others.
It's a tough spot, when your living in the renovation. An issue like the above mentions arises. What do you do? Tell the guy no way, and get a chitty job? Boot him and try finding another (at a much greater cost I'm sure).
Even if you have EVERY detail written to a T, what then? They say BS on you. Then what? You sue? Take them to court?
I know everyone on here is a straight shooter, but there are alot of bad seeds out there from the GC's to the subs.
Even a good GC gets his hands tied by a lousy sub. Contract or no, the HO still suffers.
I told the neighbor to clean up the milk and move on.
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"If you come to a fork in the road, take it"
"Even a good GC gets his hands tied by a lousy sub."or a busy sub!my electricians were there yeasterday. I needed the baseboard heaters in first most important so I could run the baseboard to them.They worked on that most of the day while I made custom mounting blocks for cieling fixtures. A ten foot base heart was missing and they called about it - the warehouse guy had run over it and they canhave it monday.So the electricians will finish the rest of it monday instead of today, since they need to go back anyhow....and somebody else is crying....Things like this are just part of the flow...it happens.Meanwhile, my hands are tied on finishing a few things
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You make some good points. I have had several experiences where I was underbid, then later told that the low bidder charged extra for stuff that was included in my bid, and the total ended up being more than if they had used me.
As a general contractor, I occasionally have subs try to "play" me. Especially if I'm using a new sub for the first time. And sometimes they get me over a barrel, and I have no choice. But I've been around this block a few times, so usually I can work around them, and get the job done without paying for exhorbitant extras.
Another thing the DIY contractor omits, that I figure into every bid - a markup on sub's bids to cover my labor helping them do their job. Meaning, I figure every sub who bids to me is going to overlook something, and at some point in the job I'm going to put some time or $ into helping them meet their contract. I just expect it.
Some examples: a roofer gives me a bid on a hot-mop re-roof, including building up the low spots. Once the work commences, he has overlooked the fact that the skylight curbs will need to be built up accordingly. He needs some 2x4's to rip down for the curb extension, but didn't bring any. No problem, here take some of mine, and here's my sawhorses to support them for ripping. If you need a few more, let me know and I'll run to the store and pick up some extras (which I'll do the next morning on the way to work, regardless). Hey, your blade is dull - here's a new blade.
An electrician is having a hard time tracing a missing wire buried in the wall somewhere by a previous remodel. There is a tool for this, but he tells me somewhat bitterly, that it costs $100 for the tool, and for what I'm paying (what he bid), he's not about to pay that, just for my job. Childish? - I think so. But rather than say so, I say No problem, hop in my truck, I'll take you down and buy you the tool you need.
My cabinet guy screwed up, and installed a vanity cabinet in the wrong unit - and its finished on the wrong side, for the unit its supposed to go in. And some of the bathroom vanities are way out of level. So he has to modify it - but I had my guys remove it, and I drove it to his shop myself. I told him to fix the crooked vanities, and he did, but he missed one. I had my guy pull it and shim it, and re-attach it.
Not that I'm such a nice guy. I just know this stuff will happen, and sometimes these little hassles lead to bitter feelings about my job (followed by expensive "extras"). Better to expect them, cover the cost to fix them as they arise, and move on, before it gets to that point."I needed a drink, I needed a lot of life insurance, I needed a vacation, I needed a home in the country. What I had was a coat, a hat and a gun."
Raymond Chandler's Philip Marlowe
As did the tile guy.
I don't understand how the tile guy "encountered" a shower floor with too much pitch.
That's his job to do or to spec.
And the HO/"Contractor" should have been aware of this as well as many other things.
Why any HO would try to play GC is beyond me.
Greater percentage of GC's can't get it right. What makes an HO believe that they can do it better?
Eric[email protected]
the plumber they hired laid the shower pan.
he did the preslope and laid the shower pan.
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"If you come to a fork in the road, take it"
I cannot imagine why a tile guy would complain about too much preslope.
The "contractor" should have consulted with or gained input from the "tile guy" in advance as to specifications on preslope and pan.
That's what a GC does.
Of course the ho does not understand that nor does he understand that a GC charges money for something like that.
Any idiot can be a GC.
Or a brain surgeon.
You get what you pay for.[email protected]
with my subs, I don't think I get bnetter price becuase of volumn. There is more work here than anyone wants anyways.But they do me better than a HO because when I dsescribe a job, they know that it is what I say or that I will take care of things missed that come up.With most HOs, the subs know that the original descripotion of scope of work - if any - willl be wrong and will change and will cost grief...
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But they do me better than a HO because when I dsescribe a job, they know that it is what I say or that I will take care of things missed that come up.
They've worked with you before and know what to expect. Predictable job and payment. So who wouldn't rather go with the predictable job and payment rather than an unknown single-HO-job? It is to be expected and what I would do in their shoes. Just makes it a little tougher on a HO who is trying to get a single job done.jt8
"One of the true tests of leadership is the ability to recognize a problem before it becomes an emergency." -- Arnold H. Glasgow
Subs we use will not do other than repair or service work for ho's.
I don't need to wonder why.[email protected]
"with my subs, I don't think I get bnetter price becuase of volumn. "
I'm definitely low volume .... as far as GC's go ...
but I do get great pricing from my subs.
that said ... my subs are pretty much never the cheapest.
But ... I get the great pricing because for the most part my jobs are well organized and sub friendly. I hear plenty of stories about how the high volume guys try to lord that over them.
All subs want is a chance to get in and get out and make a decent buck.
Most HO's don't understand that organization and quick decision making is the key.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Yep - Sub-friendly - great term!
A couple months ago when the SR guys rolled in on my job a day late, I said something about having been worried they were trying to avoid my job because this one was smallish and all cut up with lots of closets and hall and some wainscot and a 13' high catherdral cieling...."Gosh no, Paul, We would much rather be here on your job than that other place we just pulled off of. That place is a nightmare with nobody knows what they're doing...."
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In Reno, we once had a weekend "talk to the lawyer" radio show. Every week, there were calls similar to this topic: a customer unhappy with the contractors he's hired.
I would hear these tales, and thing "My goodness! Shame on those terrible contractors!"
Then I got involved in contracting, and I began to see the other side of the coin. Here are some of the more common CUSStomer types:
The first is the guy who's not sure what he wants, and keeps making changes. Guess what effect that has on cost?
There's the guy who knowingly conceals things that will complicate the job. For example, he knows the floor joists are rotten, and neglects to mention this to the marble tile guy.
There's the cheapskate who thinks he can play GC. He naturally feels he need not provide for rubbish removal, or toilet facilities, or utilities ... stuff that the GC is responsible for. Not to forget scheduling; I had one guy expect the plumber, framer, floor guy, rocker, ceiling guy, and painter ALL work in the same 6x10' area at the same time .... while the sewer line was being replaced!
Then there's the beggar: he really needs this NOW ... can't you do it for less? You try to accommodate, even agree to work weekends (since your usual schedule is full)... you show up, only to find that, by golly, Saturday or Sunday work interferes with their religious practices. Yet, he still expects the work done- despite his impossible conditions.
(A variation of this is the after-completion 'punch list' game. You are given a list of things to fix, are not allowed there during business hours, and they can't be bothered to let you in after hours).
There's the guy who doesn't have the money, after all ... but won't admit that to the contractors, and tries to save his tail by changing the job around .... care to guess the results?
OK, the job is done .... the bill is presented. Some folks think this is the time to re-open negotiations. All along, they loved your work; now they note every imperfection. The receptacles are in the wrong places. There's footprints in the mud outside. Would you settle for less ... in cash ... now ..... or wait for the judge? Etc.
Whether contractor or customer, almost every sob story I've heard has failed to survive close examination. The problems are almost always either imaginary .... or self-inflicted.
This thread reminds me of one particular customer. This gent pulled every trick in the book. Legions of poverty-level workmen toiled in appalling conditions, trying to please him. Contractors, to a man, ended up losing money on the job .... complications, obstructions, etc. Months later, I was present when this gent boasted to all his buddies how cheap he had got the work done!
As Jo Dee Mesina sings: My 'give-a-damn's' busted!
Excellent stuff.
Seems to me from some of your scenarios those contractors need to get out of the business.
Your stories are yet another angle folks need to examine. In my neighbors example, the subs blamed the subs (except the stucco guy). Yours were manipulative HO's and weak GC's.
Amazing isn't it? Yet homes still get built.
Hopefully threads like these will enlighten some folks who may not have been aware of the scope and conditions of home building.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If you come to a fork in the road, take it"
Hopefully threads like these will enlighten some folks who may not have been aware of the scope and conditions of home building.
All building contractors learn that contracts must be very specific in order to protect the interests of both home owners and tradesmen.
That's the message that home owners need to get, in order to make an informed decision about trying to GC their own projects. When home owners realize that they haven't enough basic knowledge of the building trades, to write a specific contract with any tradesman, it should become obvious that they can't run a construction project.