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Discussion Forum

Bidding on cabinet job

PaulGC | Posted in General Discussion on April 26, 2007 03:45am

I was asked today to put in a “labor bid only” on a set of cabinets to go in a kitchen belonging to the local golf clubhouse. The manager wants to get bids from 4 people on labor only as the business will pay for the materials themselves. The guy is really strange in his ways so this is why he wants to do it this way. Anyways, I haven’t bid on cabinets before but I have done a few small cabinets over the years at cost plus so I know how to make ’em. This time it’s different, I have to bid on the labor part only.

 What I need to know from you folks is, how can I calculate how many hours it’ll take me to do certain cabinets, say for instance a cabinet for a sink or even a standard wall cabinet?  Oh yeah, the guy who asked me to this wants the cabinets done as cheaply as possible. Can you believe this?

 I was told that the local small, cabinet shops charge around $125 a foot for cabinets. Now this includes the materials and labor. A buddy suggested me to charge $25 a foot for labor since I won’t be buying the materials.

Thanks kindly

Paul

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Replies

  1. User avater
    Heck | Apr 26, 2007 04:09am | #1

    Do you really need this job? Sounds like trouble.

    _______________________________________________________________

    A SQUAT grey building of only thirty-four stories. Over the main entrance the words, CENTRAL LONDON HATCHERY AND CONDITIONING CENTRE, and, in a shield, the World State's motto, COMMUNITY, IDENTITY, STABILITY.

  2. DougU | Apr 26, 2007 04:12am | #2

    Oh yeah, the guy who asked me to do this wants the cabinets done as cheaply as possible.

    Unless you really need the work I wouldnt even entertain the thought of doing this job.

    Their looking for a bottom of the barrel bid and if your willing to work for penuts then by all means have at it.

    Doug

     

    1. imperialseamlessdotcom | Apr 26, 2007 05:20am | #3

      Like the Pink Floyd song, "RUN LIKE HELL" !!!!! Never work on a "cost plus" basis and never work for people like these. Only work on your terms- not someone elses. You'll get a lot more respect this way.

      More respect=more work=more$

      When they say, "We'll be getting four bids for labor only and want it done as cheap as possible", just pause for five long seconds while looking them directly in the eyes and say, "I would like to thank you for considering me for the project, but I'm not the type of person you are looking for. I quote my work based on Blah blah blah." Shake the persons hand, chuckle and walk away. They might even call you back later after the cheap guy can't come through.

  3. oldusty | Apr 26, 2007 10:11am | #4

    Paul ,

            One way to figure the job would be to bid it in your normal way , then deduct the cost of materials . Make sure you use your estimates on material costs not the clients .

        Will they deliver the materials to you ?

            If I was doing the job the contract would specify the types of materials and hardware to be supplied and used as well , just to make sure you could use the regular type you like to use .

        All the sudden the customer gives you a bunch of 1/2" instead of 3/4" to make boxes out of or some funky slides and hinges could make it scary ?

                           dusty

  4. Hudson Valley Carpenter | Apr 26, 2007 10:45am | #5

    Are there drawings and specs for this job?  If not, pass.  To many loose ends means nothing but trouble for you.

    With drawings and specs; figure the job whatever way makes sense, according to your experience and the circumstances.  Forget that you're bidding against anyone else, just put in a bid which will earn you a good buck.  I'd even add a ten to twenty percent fudge factor, just because of the odd nature of the job. 

    I've seen it happen, in a similar situation some years ago, that I was the only qualified contractor known to person in charge.  He didn't plan on getting any other bids, just wanted me to think that he was.  My bid was accepted and we signed an agreement in a matter of minutes.  

  5. PaulGC | Apr 26, 2007 11:31am | #6

    Guys, I forgot to mention one thing and that was - I don't have to make the doors for the cabinets. Basically all I want to know is how can I figure out a ballpark figure on the number of hours it'll take me to do certain cabinets, say for instance how long will it take to build a sink cabinet.

     

    Thanks again

    Paul

    1. PaulGC | Apr 26, 2007 11:58am | #7

      Guys yet another point I want to add is that I will be doing these cabinets in my spare time so it isn't my day job, just some "under the table cash". As well I want to get a good reputation started with the people that are on the golf course board just in case they may want a cabinet job done sometime. Those guys have money.

       It's my first set of cabinets and I really want to get the job, mostly for the learning process.

       

      Paul

      1. calvin | Apr 26, 2007 01:44pm | #8

        How long/how much?

         

        How would a complete set of pings, a bag and the years greensfees work out?A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.

        Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.

        http://www.quittintime.com/

         

      2. DonCanDo | Apr 26, 2007 02:00pm | #10

        People with money and expensive tastes aren't likely to think of the guy that built the cheap cabinets at the club when they want cabinets for themselves.  Well, maybe they will if they're really cheap themselves.  This is not a reputation nor the kind of customers you want.

        I could not come close to building cabinet carcasses for the price that I could buy inexpensive ready-to-assemble cabinets.  And I wouldn't try.  So unless these cabinets are "special" in some way (unlikely, since it sounds like they're using stock doors), I don't see an opportunity here.

        1. girlbuilder | Apr 28, 2007 04:18am | #22

          I agree with Don and others, we built cabinets onsite once and I regretted it and learned to appreciate the guys who have invested in a shop and make their living doing just that. We could've just purchased ready mades for what the customer wanted and been done much farther ahead and in budget.Of course, we don't have a shop either, so it was doubly difficult as everything was with our regular 'portable' tools. Never again.I second what everyone said also about giving up control and the 'cheap' factor. Cheap also means you -- your labor and time. And I agree, you won't be getting brownie points with the Big Shots on the green either. No one will want to brag that they hired the guy who did the cheap job at the clubhouse to do their high-end designer kitchen.

      3. DougU | Apr 26, 2007 02:08pm | #11

        Paul

        Go back and reread this post 89117.10 , building cabinets is a tough way to turn a buck, even for the experienced.

        No offence but if you dont know how long it takes to make a sink base for example then your pretty green at this and maybe cabinets in a high profile place such as the country club shouldnt be your first gig.

        As well I want to get a good reputation started with the people that are on the golf course board just in case they may want a cabinet job done sometime. Those guys have money.

        Who do you think your going to impress by building a cheap set of cabinets? If you have to build cheap, which sounds like the case here, nobody is going to notice anything except that. The board isnt going to see that you were instructed to build cheap, they're going to see the cabinets and thats what they'll have as a reference to your work.

        I've noticed that the guys with money will often times want a good product and some of them dont mind paying for it. You are not going to impress anybody by building "cheap". Your reputation is not going to be inhanced by this job!

        YOu mention that this is not your day job so I assume that the money isnt as important as it is to a cabinet shop. If thats the case then I'd do some other job that would actually do something to improve my rep and inhance my skillls as a craftsman.

        Doug

      4. User avater
        nailerman | Apr 26, 2007 03:44pm | #12

        Paul,

             I agree with what DougU said. Most of time the people with money in club houses don't see the cabinets, they see the liquid refreshments and the next round.

             I did a job like that when I first started out 15 yrs ago. Thought that would get me into the money crowd. That's when I found out what DougU said, they will only hire those with the rep. of good quality work.

         

             Pass on this and get with a high end builder to gain exp. and rep.

         

                                                            Nailer

    2. Buttkickski | Apr 26, 2007 07:31pm | #13

      $7,654 is my estimate.

      Really, if this guy's worried about $$ and he's buying the doors anyway then that's most of the cost. He may as well buy stock cabinets with doors because it would end up being cheaper.

      You can charge him to install the cabinets which is much easier and more profitable than making them.

    3. oldusty | Apr 27, 2007 05:10pm | #19

      Paul ,

                  The answer to your question of how long will it take to build these cabinets , is really dependent on how you are equipped and your level of expertise .

        You said this will be your first set of cabinets , you will be learning as you build , your true time may not be the criteria to charge from .

             You will take longer so you can charge for more hours ? I don't think so .

               There is no reason that you should not use this as an experience to learn and get some pay for some of your time .

              Your hourly wage would not be the same as a journeyman cabinetmaker with a full fledged shop and all the overhead to go along with it .

             Even if you knew exactly how long it will take to build this job , how much are you worth an hour ?

             You will build these in your spare time , will it take 2 or 3 weekends and weeks of evenings ? this depends on you .

        Will these be unfinished or will you also finish them ? what about the doors ?

          If it's experience you want , do them for free and learn and track your time for next time when you can charge .

                      good       luck          dusty

         

      1. PaulGC | Apr 28, 2007 12:07am | #20

        Dusty, thank you kindly for your opinion.

        1. This is my first set so it will take me some time to do as I'll be thinking about every little step to do next.

        2. I have a lot of tools to do this(ex. big Delta table saw, 12" Dewalt miter saw, several $1000 worth of router bits, etc.)

        3. The experience will be educational so how can anyone ever put a price on knowledge?

        4. Two weeks time I will be unemployed so then I can put more day time into getting it done.

        5. These cabinets will have two coats of an oil based varathane.

        6. I will not be doing the doors.

        7. Basically, I will be doing the "box work" nad installation.

         

        Thanks kindly

        Paul

      2. hartlandboy | Apr 30, 2007 06:12am | #38

        I agree with everyone here.  I've been in the renovation finish work biz for many years and you must listen to everyone.  This is not the type of job you want to establish your reputation on.  When a new customer calls me and wants something done cheap I just tell them I'm not your man.  You simply cannot do quality work cheaply.  Don't sell yourself short.  You would be smart to thank them for the opportunity and kindly tell them another time maybe.

        good luck

        gary...

  6. Jer | Apr 26, 2007 01:52pm | #9

    I used to build cabs on a small basis and will tell you that in all those years of doing it, I never really did turn any kind of profit. I made my salary, but that was about it. I just did not have the type of shop or space that it took for real production work. This is not to discourage you, but rather tell you that if you want to bid on cabinet work, bid high and be realistic about your work time and don't back down, even when asked to. This is a mistake that I made more than once.

    This particular job sounds a dicey to say the least. It sounds like you would be giving up a lot of your own power and terms. Are you to install these as well? This is precisely the type of job that used to get me into hot water. People want want want, and everything is on their terms. He wants them done as cheaply as possible?! Absolutely not! I would gracefully bow out, especially since this is not your main job and you don't 'need' it. Believe me you will be doing yourself a favor. There will be plenty of opportunities for you to start making cabinets, but this should not be one of them. View it as a test.

  7. GaryW | Apr 26, 2007 07:47pm | #14

    I agree with the others who say you should let this Puffer fish go - there are bigger, tastier and non-poisoness ones out there. Find another project that'll let you make a living.

    My price schedule includes labor, material, profit, and overhead combined into a proposal price. I no longer itemize, because those line items can't be compared to someone else's. Instead, I give a room price, which is comparable - apples-to-apples - to other's proposals. If I had to build with someone else's material, I'd have to change my whole price formula, and that's too much work to be worth the effort.

    Gary W

    gwwoodworking.com

  8. jackplane | Apr 26, 2007 08:37pm | #15

    I'd let it pass.

    Remember three things, Money, Quality, Time.

    A customer can pick two of the three, but never all three.

    Expert since 10 am.

  9. PaulGC | Apr 27, 2007 12:16pm | #16

    Well guys thanks so far for your opinions. I haven't done up an estimate yet for the cabinets as I will do them this weekend. I forgot to mention that the cabinets will be made from 1/2" melamine and 1" x 2" oak.

     

    Paul

  10. PaulGC | Apr 27, 2007 12:21pm | #17

    Guys, the guy that told me he wanted the cabinets done as cheaply as possible DOES NOT UNDERSTAND common sense things such as the fact that it takes a lot of money to build cabinets. I told him that it would be made from oak and melamine. When he mentioned the "cheap as possible" line it was seconded by the head of the golf course board, a guy that has money (McDonald's owner). God I can't believe that people talk about things they know nothing about and honestly believe they are right on everything they say.

     

    Paul

    1. Hudson Valley Carpenter | Apr 27, 2007 12:54pm | #18

      Some people try to push their agenda unmercifully, hoping that talking only about one issue will get the response they desire. 

      Just ignore all the stuff about price and bid the job so that you'll have a comfortable profit.  As I said before, I'd add a fudge factor of ten to twenty percent, just for aggravation.

       

  11. rpait | Apr 28, 2007 03:56am | #21

    are the knock down or preassembled?

    1. PaulGC | Apr 28, 2007 04:58am | #23

      Fully assembled.

      1. jeffwoodwork | Apr 28, 2007 06:15am | #24

        Wow. Well 1/2" melamine for the panels is cheap, I am guessing 1x2 oak is for stiles and rails for a face frame.  I can build a 36" sink base with toe kick and a face frame in under an hour.  Would I charge a shop rate of say $45.00/hour for that?  No way.  Do you have to finish the oak? That takes more time.  How many cabinets does he need 4 or 5  or 20?  Standard sizes like 24", 27,30 or custom, so is he going to just order doors from somewhere?  Will the doors be full overlay,1/2 or 3/4 or inset?  If the cabinets are just behind some counter to take money for green fees and not really seen just go to Home Depot and get their boxes there.  I think by the time you get labor and materials for a "cheap as possible" carcass a "Millcreek" snap together base would work.

        Of course if your looking to get some experience building cabinets then do it for that and charge to pay yourself a wage.  Just make sure he knows what you intend to do for what price and you don't get stuck making things twice or working for $1/hour.  I would not count on some rich golfer to see your work and go " wow I want that guy to do my house".

        Sounds like too many hands in one pot you build boxes, some else installs, who does the doors and the tops?  Like I said if you are just looking to get some experience building cabs and have someone pay for the materials fine but at least get paid for your time.

        Jeff

        1. PaulGC | Apr 28, 2007 12:26pm | #25

          Thanks Jeff for your opinion. Actually 1/2" melamine is the typical material used around where I live, for cabinet carcasses. Yes the 1 x 2 oak is for the face frames. As for the finish, I will put two coats of oil based Varathane on them. The doors will be 1/2" overlapped and will be made by someone else.

          Jeff, what's a typical width for a sink base cabinet? What size will it be say if a bunch of drawers were added to the side of the base?

           

          Thanks kindly

          Paul

          1. Buttkickski | Apr 28, 2007 04:09pm | #29

            1/2" is typical for PRODUCTION cabinets built in a factory with PRODUCTION clamps and tooling and using hot glue.

            If you're assembling them with standard clamps, glue and brads you're going to have a lot of trouble using 1/2"

          2. PaulGC | Apr 28, 2007 05:22pm | #30

            What would you recommend instead of 1/2" melamine?

             

            Paul

          3. Buttkickski | Apr 28, 2007 05:54pm | #31

            5/8" or 3/4".

            I prefer 5/8" because it's lighter, but you should use 3/4" if you're not very experienced at nailing and screwing into the stuff. It's very easy to get blow-outs in melamine if you're not exactly straight or on center so thicker gives you a wider target.

          4. PaulGC | Apr 28, 2007 06:28pm | #32

            3/4" is out of the question as I can't get it here where I live. I live in a small towns area and the few hardware stores that are near me only carry 1/2" and 5/8". I was planning on using 1/2" melamine, 1 x 2 oak face frames and 1-1/2" brads for fastening.

             

            Paul

          5. PaulGC | Apr 28, 2007 06:29pm | #33

            I forgot to mention that I plan on using 1/8" white masonite for the backs. I don't like it but it's cheap and I see it used in all new cabients nowadays.

             

            paul

          6. Buttkickski | Apr 28, 2007 08:11pm | #34

            Well, have fun fixing the blow outs.

          7. jeffwoodwork | Apr 29, 2007 12:12am | #35

            Most common is 36" for sink bases.

          8. PaulGC | Apr 29, 2007 12:49am | #36

            Thanks kindly Jeff. This morning I printed off some cabinet styles from KraftMaid. This was what I was looking for on the internet. I simply wanted pictures of a bunch of wall & base cabinets with different variations too them.

            Basically Jeff, what I have to do for Monday morning is come up with a price (more of a guess) on the $ value for my labor that'll go into building a certain set of cabinets.

            The two people that asked me to do it wanted cheap cabinets. Apparently it's VERY important that the cabinets be cheap in cost. God can you believe it? The only way I can figure on how to make cheap cabinets id too make them from cardboard. Ha ha! But seriously these guys have NO CLUE about the cost of making cabinets. I can't wait 'til they get a price on what the materials will cost. For instance, 1 x 2 oak around where I live cost $1.50 per foot. It's gonna be fun when the total cost of the cabinets comes together.

             I asked a guy, who used to do cabinets some years back, on what he thought about it. I just had a floor plan of the kitchen and where the cabinets will be positioned to show him. He was sure that it's gonna' be a $10,000 set of cabinets. He then said to charge atleast $2000 labor.

             

            Paul

          9. jackplane | Apr 30, 2007 05:37am | #37

            It might even be cheaper to buy a '40' of malt liquor, trade it with a homeless guy for his cardboard home, and build the "cabinets" out of that. Voila.

            :))Expert since 10 am.

          10. DougU | Apr 30, 2007 06:42am | #39

            Jack

            That might be the best advice so far but I dont think Paul wants to hear it. Only thing better would be to drink the 40 and forget about this gig. 

            1/2" carcasses with 1/8" backs! That cardboard box would be just about as strong.

            Doug

          11. User avater
            Heck | Apr 30, 2007 06:47am | #41

            You can lead a horse to water...._______________________________________________________________

            When Augustus came out on the porch the blue pigs were eating a rattlesnake - not a very big one.

             

          12. PaulGC | Apr 30, 2007 12:34pm | #43

            Hey Doug, I don't mind the advice at all. For your information 1/2" melamine, oak face frames and some glue makes a strong cabinet. The oak is nailed with some 1-1/2" brads. As for the back, 1/8" white melamine is sled down a 1/8" groove, 1/2" in from the back. That 1/2" recess allows for strips to be screwed on the back, both top & bottom, for screwing the cabinets onto the wall. It's the usual practise of all cabinet makers where I live. Personally I don't like it.

             

            Paul

          13. woodguy99 | Apr 30, 2007 12:51pm | #44

            I have some bookshelves that are made exactly like you describe.  We got them at Target because they were cheaper than I could have bought pine to make my own. 

            They are garbage.  Not every cabinet needs dovetails, but believe me--and ALL the other guys here telling you the same thing--the road you're going down is a dead end.  IF by some chance you are able to come out this job with any money in your pocket at all, the ONLY thing it will lead to is more cheap-azz jobs...is that really what you want?  Customers whose only concern is price don't respect anything else...

            At least come back here when you're done and tell us how it went for ya.... 

             

          14. DougU | Apr 30, 2007 01:51pm | #45

            Paul

            It's the usual practise of all cabinet makers where I live. I dont like it.

            Where is it that you live, you know that you have a profile that doesnt have any info in it? You dont need to put your address in it but a close proximity would help all of us understand where your comming from, something vague like West Virginia or Southern Mississippi.

            And just because its the normal practice doesnt mean that you have to do it that way. Be better then the rest and do it different.

            I've got an old copy of Toplins Cabinet making(not sure of the title) that if your interested, I'll give it to you, its a pretty good source of info. E-mail me your addy and you can have it.

            I've built cabinets for 25 plus years and I've never used 1/8" backs, I understand about traping the back in a dado but that doesnt make using 1/8" a good practice. I dont recal ever making any cabinets with 1/2" boxes either, for that matter none with 5/8". The 5/8" are not all that bad but I just prefer 3/4" because its an easier measurment to use, at least for me.

            You cant be that far from anywhere that you couldnt find or go get 3/4" or at least 5/8".

            When I install faceframe material on the front of boxes I try my hardest to not have to pepper the wood with nails. Sometimes this can be achieved with pocket screws on the outside of the box or the use of clamps and a few strategically placed nails. Avoid the over nailing of your money side. Although oak is one of the easiest woods to hide nail holes in I still limit them.

            I'm not trying to rain on your parade here but I dont think this is going to be a good job for you. If its experience that your looking for then I think there are better means to that cause.

            Its doubtful that those big shots up at the country club have cabinets built the way your suggesting.

            I sincerly hope this works out for you but I think all the "rules of cheapness" are going to prohibit you from attaining your goal here.

            Good luck to you though, and I'm serious about the Toplin book.

            Doug

          15. PaulGC | Apr 30, 2007 10:24pm | #46

            Doug I live in Newfoundland, Canada.

             

            Paul

          16. PaulGC | May 01, 2007 03:17am | #47

            Doug, what do you use for the backs? 1/2" melamine? I DO NOT like how that 1/8" white masonite is used down the back on cabinets that I see. I simply mentioned it here on this thread. In my opinion people use it because it's cheap. One guy even said to me once that "no one's ever gonna see it anyways". Sure it's on the back and will be pretty much unseen, but it's still there.

            Think about it, how many people judge cabinets by what's on the outside? Pretty much all of 'em. People look at cabinets, see all the oak raised panel doors and they like it. Very rarely, in my own opinion, do people base their opinion on the insides of cabinets. Bring people into a kitchen, have them look at all the oak cabinets and they'll like whet they see. They don't know that cheap material (ex. 1/8" white masonite for the backs) may have been used.

            Just something to think about.

             

            Take care

            Paul

          17. DougU | May 01, 2007 05:24am | #48

            Paul

            Well about the only thing I know about Canada is that its above the US! Cant help on your location.

            For backs of cabinets I use 1/4" ply or melamine, depending on what the cab's are made of - usually dadoed into the back. I worked for a cabinet shop down in Texas that just nailed the 1/4" directly onto the back of the box and then nailed the nailing strips over that. It worked but you always had to worry about someone pushing the backs out on the cabinets inbetween the two nailing stips with no way to pull it back in.

            I disagree that people wont judge cabinets by anything more then the outside. Why is it that most of the cabinets are still made from 3/4" ply, melamine, particle board, MDF? Its because its still considered a standard. Dont you think that if everybody could get by with a cheaper material they would take advantage of it?

            I dont know a custom cabinet shop around that makes cab boxes out of anything less then 5/8" and those are very rare, most are still using 3/4".

            I hope you can turn a buck on this job and furthermore gain some valuble experience in doing so. Learning new things have a cost and if you end up strugling through this(through no fault of your own) then thats the lesson you'll learn, if you can do it well and make some money then thats good too, nothing wrong with that at all.

            Good luck and do keep us updated on this, its always good to see how these things turn out.

            Doug

             

             

          18. JerraldHayes | May 01, 2007 07:07am | #49

            An 1/8" back? I would say you're kidding me but I know you're not. Boy does that scream "cheap as ####".

            "Think about it, how many people judge cabinets by what's on the outside? Pretty much all of 'em. People look at cabinets, see all the oak raised panel doors and they like it. Very rarely, in my own opinion, do people base their opinion on the insides of cabinets. Bring people into a kitchen, have them look at all the oak cabinets and they'll like whet they see. They don't know that cheap material (ex. 1/8" white masonite for the backs) may have been used."

            I think that thinking is nonsense and dangerously naive and runs counter to the way all the clients I've been fortunate to deal with over the years think. I've found just how the carcase is constructed to be of enormous importance to clients. What inside, backs, drawer slides, and shelf systems makes a huge difference to clients.

            If you bring clients into a sample kitchen ya know what they do? They open the doors and drawers to look inside and see how the cabinets are constructed. Every time. They look at the doors to see if they're real wood or not! I've never seen anyone just look at a few oak doors and say hey this kitchen must be good.

            I've even had many clients who detest the idea of cabinets carcases being fabricated out MDF laminated panels (which I actually like because they're so stable). As for the melamine cabinets, they are for the garage or basement or low income housing. But never with a 1/8" back. That's crazy. Why not just leave the back off if that's the case.

            View Image

          19. DougU | May 01, 2007 02:20pm | #50

            As for the melamine cabinets, they are for the garage or basement or low income housing

            Jerrald

            That's a little bit of a generalization ain't it?

            I've built melamine cabinets for some very nice homes, sure there not in NY but nice none the less.

            I had one customer in Austin, very well to do, not living in a track home but he insisted that all his cabinets to be constructed of melamine, at least the carcase.

            How is melamine any lower end then MDF, which I make a lot of carcasses from as well?

            Here is a few shots of melamine cabinets. All the pics are of walnut faced melamine with the exception of the last one, those are teak faced for the boat house.

            Maybe you were referring to all melamine cab's, doors and drawers included but you made a generalization that melamine was for the garage - that's completely wrong.

            Doug

          20. JerraldHayes | May 01, 2007 04:43pm | #51

            "As for the melamine cabinets, they are for the garage or basement or low income housing

            Jerrald

            That's a little bit of a generalization ain't it?"

            Well yeah, it is. Actually I really should clarify just what I was saying.

            I rolled my eyes back in my head when I signed on late last night and saw a post talking about 1/8 cabinet backs and got a little sloppy in what I was describing. As for 1/8" cabinet backs I still stand by what I said and I think that screams "cheap as ####". That's a real bad idea.

            However when I was saying "melamine cabinets" what perhaps I really, more specifically, should have been saying was ' melamine surfaced particleboard cabinets". The truth is melamine is a thermally fused, plastic resin saturated paper finish applied over a core substrate and you can actually get melamine surfaced plywood, MDF or Particleboard.

            However since you can so easily buy white melamine particleboard just about anywhere around here we've sort of let our language usage slide and 'melamine' when we use it has become generic slang for Particleboard. And around here generally speaking the white melamine particleboard cabinet carcases are for garages, basements, laundry rooms ( I didn't mention that one before), or low income housing. I'm sure there are people who get particleboard cabinets for the kitchen and baths but they are few and far between.

            "How is melamine any lower end then MDF, which I make a lot of carcasses from as well?"

            Were you using the word 'melamine' there like I was in place of particleboard? If so let me say that it (particleboard) does have it place and purpose. I've built cabinets for my artist studio and magazine storage (FWW, FHB, etc.) downstairs out of white melamine particleboard. It is cheap and cleans easily. However it's not the nicest material to work with. It chips very easily when cutting or drilling if the blade is just the slightest bit dull. The particleboard substrate makes for rough edges at times that are tough on your hands. It doesn't fasten well even when using confirmats. As the material degrades over time in a high use situation like a kitchen or bath joints will loosen, shelves will sag, and doors will sag as hinges work their way loose too. And forget about nailing on trim, it will work it's way loose if you don't use glue to glue it on too.

            View Image

          21. Buttkickski | May 01, 2007 09:49pm | #52

            90% of the kitchens I've put in have melamine carcasses, usually a Natural Maple print.

            99% of the cabinets I ever made whether it be entertainment center, home office or kitchen was melamine carcasses (unless interior was exposed). I have access to about 40 different prints such as Maple, Mohogany, Cherry, Black, White, Pink...you name it.

            It's great stuff for cabinets if you know how to work with it. I did everything butt joints all 3/4 or 5/8 material with screws (made for particle board, not drywall screws!) and Roo Glue. You can make some really strong stuff with melamine.

          22. JerraldHayes | May 01, 2007 10:35pm | #53

            Buttkickski I hope you did read my post #89117.52 where I clarified exactly what I meant when I first said "melamine" in post #89117.5. I had used the word "melamine" in our company slang and parlance when I was thinking of and really referring more specifically to "particleboard". Melamine can be used to surface plywood, MDF or Particleboard and I was probably being sloppy in using melamine to describe what I really meant as "particleboard".

            "90% of the kitchens I've put in have melamine carcasses, usually a Natural Maple print."

            We're not quite that high in that we probably see melamine on interior surfaces in 75-90% of the kitchen cabinets we install and yes it is more often than not the maple print. The percentage of bath cabinets with interiors surfaced in melamine is probably 100%. But we're talking about plywood or MDF carcases not particleboard. While I think I may have taken them out I have never personally installed a particleboard kitchen or bath.

            "It's great stuff for cabinets if you know how to work with it. I did everything butt joints all 3/4 or 5/8 material with screws (made for particle board, not drywall screws!) and Roo Glue.... "

            Melamine yes I agree it is great stuff and we use Roo Glue with it too. While we don't make our own cabinets very often when we do on the kitchen and bath cabinets we have made if we had a raw surface of MDF or Ply we would laminate it with raw melamine for moisture protection and stability and so that the piece would have a good finished look before it was installed.

            "...You can make some really strong stuff with melamine."

            But you are talking about melamine coated MDF and Ply aren't you and not Particleboard? Aside from the aversion some of our clients have about particleboard being 'cheap' (which it is) we also generally don't like it for the reasons I already mentioned in post #89117.52. Some of our clients even have aversions (unfounded I think) to MDF thinking it's the same thing as particleboard and wont accept cabinets in MDF either.

            Interestingly thinking of one past homeowner in particular that we did the installation for I recall him describing to me one day how important it was to him to have real cherry veneer on the interior of his kitchen cabinets constructed of real wood (meaning plywood) and not "pressboard" (his word) whereas his wife (or kitchen staff) probably would have wanted and preferred a melamine print.

            View Image

          23. Buttkickski | May 01, 2007 10:42pm | #54

            Every sheet of melamine I ever used had a particle board substrate.

          24. JerraldHayes | May 01, 2007 11:06pm | #55

            Really, that's a little surprising for me to hear.Other than the the stuff you fabricate yourself what stock and semi-custom cabinet lines or custom shops are you installing for that use particle board for substrates?Off the top of my head in the past couple of years we've typically installed lines like Heritage, Omega, St. Charles, Plain & Fancy, Rutt and I've never seen particleboard in any of their products that we have installed. MDF but never particleboard.

            View Image

          25. Buttkickski | May 01, 2007 11:35pm | #56

            Merillat, Dynasty, Wood-Mode and Brookhaven all use particle board. Some are even 1/2" as I recall.

          26. JerraldHayes | May 02, 2007 12:00am | #57

            Ya know as I'm sitting here at my desk one of my guys has just told me that we installed a Plain & Fancy kitchen about a year and half ago that was particleboard construction so I guess I can't say "never" anymore. I was actually sort of surprised to hear that.But I still find it hard to belive that your installing nothing but particleboard cabinets and no MDF or Ply cases? Maybe it's a regional thing?. And you say Wood-Mode uses particleboard? My guy Mike, who just told me about the P & F particleboard kitchen we installed, says that he thought Wood-Mode was real wood and MDF and that Brookhaven was Wood-Mode's econonmy line and might be particle board. (Personally I've seen Wode-Mode kitchens but neither we nor I have ever installed one.)

            View Image

          27. Buttkickski | May 02, 2007 12:10am | #58

            I didn't say none, I said 90%.

             

            From the Wood-Mode website:

            Standard—

            Cabinets constructed of furniture-grade, fine surface wood particleboard

            White melamine interiors

            Fully concealed adjustable hinges allow for precise door alignment

            Option—

            Cabinets constructed of furniture-grade plywood

            Natural maple vinyl or veneer interiors

            White epoxy-coated Nova metal drawerfor a contemporary look  (see photo to right)

            http://www.wood-mode.com/WoodMode_Interior_Frames/WoodMode_Construction_Main.htm

             

          28. JerraldHayes | May 02, 2007 12:30am | #59

            The phrase "fine surface wood particleboard" sounds to me a lot like a clever euphemism for MDF and it would seem to me that the jump from particleboard to furniture-grade plywood skipping over MDF seems like a stretch but if you say it's really particleboard and not MDF that's good enough for me as far as this discussion goes.

            View Image

          29. brownbagg | Apr 30, 2007 06:45am | #40

            go to home depot, buy some cheap cabinet and be done.

        2. PaulGC | Apr 28, 2007 12:32pm | #26

          Is there somewhere I can go on the internet and get a chart or pictures that show me all the different styles of cabinet configurations? What about a chart that shows all the typical cabinet door sizes?

           

          Paul

          1. rpait | Apr 28, 2007 03:10pm | #28

            http://www.millspride.com has a online design tool that shows all thiers, also at http://www.kraftmaid.com I downloaded all their pdf cabinet specs.

      2. rpait | Apr 28, 2007 03:06pm | #27

        can you and a helper install fully assembled cabinets in one day, two? determine what your day is worth and charge that. for me I would charge $1,000 and run with it.

  12. [email protected] | Apr 30, 2007 08:34am | #42

    Paul there is a book you need to buy if you're serious about this;

     

    The Complete Cabinetmakers Reference (Popular Woodworking) by Jeffery Piontkowski

    Amazon has it for $22.  It has detailed plans and explanations on how to make cheap fast cabinets.  Basic 3/4 ply or melamine, with glued and screwed, or stapled joinery.  He gives detailed cut lists for just about any cabinet you will need to build, and has a well illustrated dialog on what order to do things. 

    And,if you are doing a bunch look at getting a sheet optimization program like CutList.  The ability to minimize the number of cuts (time), and amount of waste (money), will pay for the program pretty quickly. 

    My guess is that there is someone at the club who thinks they can swing a great deal on the materials.  If so CutList will print a bill of materials so they know what to get.  Or, the guy is in a business where most of the profit is in the markup on materials. 

    I have the feeling this job is going to be a pita mess, so add a factor to your bid to compensate.  When I was estimating, I used to add 18% to my estimate if Bechtel was doing the project management, and deduct a little on some projects, if I knew the owner's project manager was going to be good to work with. 

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