Hi, I’m a SWF in a big bind.
I bought my first home and found out the concrete under my house has raw sewege under it. This sewege is from this home. Sewege of fifty years.
It is a semi-detached home and the common wall sunk. Thus cracked the horizontal sewege line in many spots and washed alot of the peat moss away The soil is peat moss underneath and an underground stream deeper down. I have no money and wil need to repair this myself. I am ofcoarse scared to no end. My insurance company found out about my problem and cancelled coverage. I barely managed to find another to cover at twice the cost. The neighbours side settled evenly, my side has the outer wall six inches higher.
I need to somehow hold up the furnace before I break the concrete around it because the concrete beneath is on thin air.
I need some advice from somewhere and I’m fiding it hard to get any.
Replies
how long since the purchase to discovery???
have you looked into recouse action by going after the sellers...
are you saying you have peat moss as a base under the concrete?
how old is the home?
how lod is the house?
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Hi,'I bought the home last october and moved in November 05.
The owners were selling by power of attorny. Both parents aged and in hospital. They were the origional owners.
My agent mislead me and told me he had years of experience yet I found out later only 6mnths. I bought conditional upon an inspection. I hired the most reputable and expensive inspection company. The owner was the founder and presidentm of the Ontario assoc for Home inspections hi co-owner was President of American Home ispection assoc.
They lecture all around North America. The inspection did not indicate a need to look into this sloped condition any further. Inspection company admited it was an oversite.
The Owners covered up the slope with leveling cement on the main floor but the basement was obviouse. I know nothing about structual issues and thought I could simply level the basement. Ignorant thought!The sellers also put in the purchase agreement that they make no warrenties or representation with respct to the state of repairs of the premises.The house is 50 years old. And I'm stuck living now on a floor with no personal belongings and all studs and wire exposed on the main floor that resulted from having to reveal the slope. This was started by a friend who first volunteered to help me through this because of his construction background in repayment of 10,000 I lent him to bring his baby home from another country and now is suggesting is not going to work for free. And I have't seen any money returned yet either. Hmm?I now wish nothing was touched.
Anyway...thats life.
I have to tr to do the work myself and learna at the same time while working my day job.1st thing first sewage.
Hate to say it, but I'd line up an attorney and a structural engineer. The attorney should review the sale agreement and whatever was attached--an hour's time and s/he should be able to tell you if legal remedy is likely. The engineer should check out the house thoroughly and, if requested by the attorney, write a report. If other engineering specialties are needed, the structural eng. will know this, and know who to bring in.
Anyway, get a couple of professional opinions. Don't let your friend do anything further, regardless of the ten grand.
Got any photos of the damage? Everyone here likes photos, as long as they're not too big.
At least you have good teeth.
So far it sounds like there is something amiss with the Canadian legal system as regards real estate
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Maybe they're not a litigious society. Imagine that.
like France is about war?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I think they've decided to sit out, for the most part... drink some more wine and eat some bread and cheese, fornicate shamelessly, have a few political scandals now and then, just generally take it easy. Looks pretty good from here. I don't know if they have any wood to build with, though, I think they burned it all in the sixteenth century. It might be necessary to get some serious mason skills to hang with them.
Do you know how many Frenchmen it takes to defend Paris?
No-one knows - it's never been tried!
Adj. 1. litigious - of or relating to litigation
2. litigious - inclined or showing an inclination to dispute or disagree, even to engage in law suits; "a style described as abrasive and contentious"; "a disputatious lawyer"; "a litigious and acrimonious spirit"
contentious, disputatious, disputative
argumentative - given to or characterized by argument; "an argumentative discourse"; "argumentative to the point of being cantankerous"; "an intelligent but argumentative child"******
Doesn't sound like Canada or Switzerland for that matter.
DAMN!
They were the origional owners.
WTB they were aware of the problems..
My agent mislead me and told me he had years of experience yet I found out later only 6mnths.
add him to the law suit...
I bought conditional upon an inspection. I hired the most reputable and expensive inspection company. The owner was the founder and president of the Ontario assoc for Home inspections hi co-owner was President of American Home ispection assoc.
you evidently didn't get yur money's worth...
Inspection company admited it was an oversite.
be nice to get them to pay up...
The Owners covered up the slope with leveling cement on the main floor but the basement was obviouse.
they knew and willfully hid the issues at hand...
The sellers also put in the purchase agreement that they make no warrenties or representation with respct to the state of repairs of the premises.
you were decieved.. make them but yur house back and pay you for yur trouble...
. And I have't seen any money returned yet either. Hmm?
wrong forum...
I have to try to do the work myself and learn at the same time while working my day job.
I would go after the whole lot with a vengence...
1st thing first sewage.
dig up the pipe and repair it...
can you elaborate on the peat you mention or is ir sewerage soaked soil...
that will have to be dug out and replaced...
the foundation stabilized and or repaired...
the house jaceded up to level...
it may be that you have a house that is too expensive to repair with so many issues at hand...
go after the seller, agent and inspection crew...
take the time to fill in yur profile... there are people here that may know more about how to help because of their and your location...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I would like to find local help.
But as suggested and I believe...and now have learnt through this you can't trust everone. I sure did unfortunatly.
I rather not put my detailed profile on site.
I am doing tons of research however and am trying to find the safest, most trustworthy and cost effective way to solve my problem
I did approach the Inspection company for some sort of compensation.
But then compensation also requires knowledge of the cost of repairs.
Which I knew nothing of. I got three quotes and had over 10 contractors come in...most have said they are not qualified and that it is a pandoras box! They may quote but this is a big problem and they can't guarentee it won't cost more. The three quotes I got range from 69,000 just to repair the plumbing and concrete to 162,000 for what someone said is necessary expense because of the unlevel floors would need leveling,then the windows would need replacing, the wiring could stretch and the plumbing would need to be redone. Hmmm?
Seriously, I don't want to be taken advantage of anymore and am not sure what to believe.Yes, the peat moss on the common wall side is completely saturate with sewage.Regarding free legal advise. I've thought of that-I don't qualify I have a job and don't fall in to the bracket of being on social service.I can give my general location if anyone has any names or connections.
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
But now all I believe is noone in thier right mind would even want to get involved with this house when there are easier and more profitable projects to embrase. I guess I wouldn't blame them either.
I now am so discouraged about the real-estate and builders/developers that I don't know who really would do this kind of work.Edited 9/23/2006 11:51 am ET by Love to flossEdited 9/23/2006 11:53 am ET by Love to floss
Edited 9/23/2006 11:56 am ET by Love to floss
How do I put pictures on here?
when you post there is an "attach files" tab at the bottom of the screen....
hit that and follow the prompts..
try to keeo yur pics in the 100 /150 KB range... there are many here on dial up..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
By the way I like your quote at the bottom.
Hensse why I figured it's time to try to sky-dive at least get over one of my fears!Trying to figure out my camera now re picture sizeing
there are several members here that reside in Canada....
they my know an avenue or two that you could take in getting this resolved...
don't buy into that streched wires thing...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
LTF - sorry 'bout your dilemma...seems you got grossly taken advantage of and dealt a sh*tty lot.
Hope you have some good friends to lean on as you deal with all this; but you'll find a very helpful community on this Forum - in that regard also, in addition to specific construction, etc type of advice.
As to your Profile:
"I rather not put my detailed profile on site. I can give my general location if anyone has any names or connections. Toronto, Ontario, Canada"
That's all that is being asked that you put on your BT profile - i.e. the "general location info"! That general geographic location helps readers of your posts get an immediate gist of what climate, potential soils, population density (for referring to any known pros in your area), etc...DUM SPIRO SPERO: "While I breathe I hope"
Unfortunatly, not many friends knowledgable about construction.
I also found that now that this has been going on for 1year peole have moved on and this is old news for them. If I had to dig the basement I may get a hand or two for a short while, but then it is not in my nature to monopolize my friends lives. I feel that this is too much to ask of them. Especially because they have children(no time) and I don't.
There are very few true friends, and the one that I thought was I gave 10,000 to his help was unsolicitedOk question.How do I strap the furnace up to the upper floor of the house.
I am going to attemt to add some pictures now.
attach the pics...
a pic here is worth more than a thousand words...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
How do I strap the furnace up to the upper floor of the house.
I would move it out of the way, if possible.
Ummm, Moving the furnace out of the way for me would be more difficult.
Because I am only 130 lbs and don't have the muscle tone to do it (even though I row)
Besides, that area around it also is hollow under the concrete.
So, nowhere really to put it.
I have to remove all the concrete , fix the sewage pipe , relevel it so that rather it being upslope to the city lines it goes downslope to the city lines.and decontaminate the soil. And since all that concrete is out..why not lower the floors.
The house has to be underpinned atleast on the side that has the sinking wall.Strapping it up would be easiest.re laws. (answer to the Law comment)
yes Canada needs some modifications to some proceedures in law.
My ex is a Lawyer and a friend works in the courts.
Now..one thing observed is the lawyers love the theory and work based on that. The courts have thier standard outcomes. (Ofcoarse that depends on the Judge). But unlike the US..Candians don't jump on every opportunity to go to sue or go to Court. Does that mean our ways are less justified. I just think since the numbers jumping into courts is less that is why the system develops slower.
Anyway I can't speak through expertise in either situation..it is hear say.
I just don't think that the system is a good system for the average person. Lawyers lawyer and for corperations that can pay for it, that's fine. It can get into the millions easily. That sometimes is a drop in the bucket for business. The owners know how to protect their personal belongings from the business issues and they are further from the poverty line-so no worries.
But when Lawers fees/billing system remains the same for the average JOE.
For the average person..the dollars are thier life. The fine line to personal bankruptsy. And...I understand the workload is heavy. But it has become standard expectation. Habit is hard to break. Would anyone this day and age want to give a financial break to a client knowing that they can still get a case instead that they can bill their usual fee. Bills need to be paid, a standard in life has been established and the wife or husband and kids would not understand why THEY have to forfit something they are used to.
Potential family divorce! Hmmm? So 9they think)sorry buddy ..can't bill you less. I understand this very well. I work in a system that Insurance is usually the paying source. Dentists have come to expect a certain income. If they get less then what is standard practice now, they are (in their minds) less of a successful reputable dentist. Alot of new grads know how work the Insurance fees to their benefit. Why not..no one is hurting directly, (no guilt) and the Insurance is allowing it plus the insurance is inthe business of making money so they have alot of money. Right?In the 60's dentists..would see the patient. Treat the patient an the patient would pay what they can afford. Sometimes the patient would barter. They would give something else in exchange. Agood deed was done ..the dentists did things for the sake of honour not cold hard cash (impersonal cash). Sadly the more Laws the more freedom taken away to be at liberty to make your own rules. Assuming everyone has good intentions. And for the most part I think they do. There are the few rotten apples that ruin the trust system for others.
Guess who ends up contolling the SYSTEM the rotten apples.
Now everyone has to play by the NO TRUST system. More controls for fairness. DOn't you think those that are unfair will once again try to find a way to cheat the new FAIR system. Sure. But the leash is shortned for everyone so now the leash needs to be made even shorter.
Who looses in the end. The honest people. Basically their is less room for the simple prrocess of honest behavior. If it is nolonger simple than why would anyone want to be kind anymore...it is hard WORK. Yet the CHEATS are still on the ball working the system which ever way works for them.BTW-I'm not a dentist, just work in the field.
Otherwise I would be better of financilly to pay for these problems I'm having. But then Maybe I should learn how to work the system..no one will get hurt?!How the heck did I get on this roll.. OH yeah, the legal system!On that note..anyone know if I can hold the owners reponsible for covering the slope and non-disclosing previous knowledge of sewage issues?Edited 9/24/2006 10:43 am ET by lv2flossEdited 9/24/2006 10:48 am ET by lv2floss
Edited 9/24/2006 10:50 am ET by lv2floss
I am not an expert by any means but i would reconsider pulling the concrete up without professional involvement. if the soil is really a pete moss and is as unstable as you suggest the floor system may be acting as a brace holding the foundation walls in place. i could be very wrong but i can envision the floor removal allowing the foot of the balls to cave in.
Absolutly right!
I do plan on getting a professional to underpin.
I won't remove eerything myself, however I am inclined to just strap up the furnace and fix the sewage pipe where it is broken.
In the end I may even just get someone to repair the pipe too.
anyone know if I can hold the owners reponsible for covering the slope and non-disclosing previous knowledge of sewage issues?
Yes, yes, YES!
The customer, through their sales contract, has a legal requirement in Ontario to fully disclose known defects. The selling agent has legal liability as well. Was there only one real estate agent involved (acting on behalf of both buyer and seller) or did you have your own agent? If there was separate selling and buying agents, I would certainly talk to the (buying) agent who was your representative in the deal and ask for their guidance. But you must talk to a lawyer about this as well. I didn't quite follow all of your posts, so I don't know if you have already done this.
I didn't quite understand the story about your "friend" taking $10K and maybe he didn't perform any work, but it sounds like you can take them to small claims court. In Ontario, the small claims limit just happens to be $10K.
Here's the Ontario government page on Small Claims Court procedures, etc:
http://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov.on.ca/english/courts/scc/
Regards,
Tim Ruttan
Hi
Thanks
I loaned him the money for other reasons and in exchange later he decided he can do some work for me. I'[m not concerned yet about the money he owes me. right now I'm wondering about my position regarding the sellers. My agent was no help (6mnth experience) I think if he was ethical and knowledgable about homes he would have steered me away from a crooked house. As did all th other agents apparently form that office. The house was listed for a 90 days. I now understand why.
I approached lawyers...I did get into that earlier on in the forum. Approx 2 plus years legal costs and no guarentee. Can't aford that hense my monologue on Lawyers fees. Not one lawyer felt they can guarentee, plus if they felt certain they would be comfortable representing me on a contingency basis.
Hmmmm? I get caught as the looser in this deal and have no real affordable way of having some resposibility taken by the owners.Are you very familiar with Law.
(Just wondering what angle your coming from)
Edited 9/24/2006 1:23 pm ET by lv2floss
Nope, not a lawyer. A concerned fellow Ontarian (I'm in Alliston) who has some construction experience.
I understand your complaints about the legal profession - the upper class can afford it, the poor get it paid for by the government, and the middle class gets screwed.
Another possible route for you to take is to file a complaint with the Real Estate Council of Ontario. See this link. The complaint should (in my legally untrained mind) probably mainly focus on the selling agent rather than your inept agent.
As for sizing pictures, don't use your camera. Go to http://www.irfanview.com and download the free program. It's very easy to use to resize a picture.
How do you know the extent of the problems you are faced with? Has someone used a camera under the concrete or through the drain, or cracked the floor open?
Regards
Tim Ruttan
"The customer, through their sales contract, has a legal requirement in Ontario to fully disclose known defects. "Don't forget who was the seller in this case.It was not the owner.It was the owner's children using a POA.The owners were in a nursying home.Although not stated, implying that the owners might not have been competent to give a disclousure.
Although not stated, implying that the owners might not have been competent to give a disclousure.
But.. sounds like the owners weren't able to do the work or even hire the work out. it was probably the the childeren(POA) that had the work done and didn't disclose the damages.
This would be my bet If so, do you think this would this make the children(POA) also liable???
MaybeBut it is also possible that this was done years ago.
it is a tricky situation...the OP bought the house as is.
when my wife and i purchased our home the inspection did not reveal a poor seal in the window that was causing condesation to form in the glass.
to make a long story short the inspector paid for the window replacement since it was his oversight. they carry insurance for such oversight. they won't tell you this but they do.
from what i have read your best starting point may be to have the inspector file with his insurance company. if they do not take legal action to recover expenses.
you paid for their expertise in building inspection and based your decision to buy on their report. they are legally responsible for this situation.
>>when my wife and i purchased our home the inspection did not reveal a poor seal in the window that was causing condesation to form in the glass.>>to make a long story short the inspector paid for the window replacement since it was his oversight. As an HI: some general comments, (every situation is different, of course:)Leaky seals can be very difficult to see. (Actually, you don't see the leak itself, just the effects.)In many cases, seeing condensation is a matter of looking at the window from just the right angle at just the right time. I believe one has to be careful as to what one can expect from a home inspection Given what people are willing to pay for an HI, you can't expect an HI to find every defect.>>you paid for their expertise in building inspection and based your decision to buy on their report. they are legally responsible for this situation.Maybe yes, maybe no: there are contractual and legal limitations on what an inspector is liable for.FWIW, I offer every customer a choice between a "standard" inspection and "Inspection Plus." The standard is at the current market rate, takes 2 1/2 - 3 hours, has limited liability and specifically focuses on major problems, with "minor" problems being on an "as seen" basis.Inspection Plus is charge by the hour, has no limit on liability and is much more detailed and wider coverage of specifics.In over 3,000 inspections, not one person has opted for Inspection Plus.And the big insp company near me has the same results in over 30,000 inspections.Moral: you get what you pay for.And a careful HI makes sure his customer knows what to expect and what not to expect.A question:>>based your decision to buy on their report.Had the inspector seen that compromised window, and had the seller refused to fix it, would you have walked from the home?Most times when people find such stuff where I've done an inspection, I will repair things I "missed" simply from a customer relations point of view.
FYI, among themselves, inspectors gripe/laugh at the things customers say would have kept them from buying the house: "If only I had known [the carpet needed stretching] [the door was scratched] [the pop-up drain doesn't completely seal] etc."
Finally: yes, there are crappy HI's out there - far too many. But try to keep in mind what is involved in doing a good inspection and what you're willing to pay and whether you can expect to get something you aren't willing to pay for,
“Experience doesn’t bring wisdom, experience evaluation does. When you fail, stay down there for a while and figure out what went wrong. Don’t run away from your failures, evaluate them and learn from them.”
Dr. John C. Maxwell
Edited 9/23/2006 2:04 pm ET by rjw
Your comments are absolutley right.
The Inspection co. manager however was onsight one week later and admitted to it being an oversight. There were some very obviouse indicators that this needed further investigation. It too the origional inspector only 1 hr 20 min to do the inspection (he must have had a busy day) I know now all the things I did not know before.
I definatly did not expect him to know about what was going on under the concrete. But his expertise and to the possibility of having some problems and the need to investigate further would have been helpful.
The company (after I contacted on of the owners, accepted it was their oversight and the VP was very compassionate towards my concerns) The reason why he has a successful business. Good customer relations.
Only problem was the help I was getting from the friend was the person that was informing me of the costs HE can repair it for. Which was not what I was quoted by others. And he was my guidline. Now it turns out that he has worked any possible remediation compensation into his full cost. Along with money owed to me.
I can nolonger negotiate with the inspection company because I've released them of their responsibility, however it was on the conditon believeing that the trusted help was honest (like I believe everyone else is.
I'm now in the position..I need to find out how much this really costs, I don't have the funds to do the repairs the way all others have suggested. And my theory now is people in despirate situations wil do despirate things. He has his 10,000 and he nolonger really needs to help me. I'm wondering how the owners should be responsible to a degree for hiding their kbowledge of this from me. The have done some obviouse cover-ups.
Anyway..yes Inspection companies are not regulated and it is not manditory to have one for a mortgage,as I've learnt.
Any Joe can be one.
I'm now in the thought that builders are a better source of knowledge for structural stuff.
Kudos to all those inspectors that really provide a thurough inspection, record everything, and properly inform their clients.
Their honesty will take them much further with referals than then for the clever deceptive inspectors. The honest ones deserve the BIG Bucks...and I would pay it to save thousands in future problems. But..the question is HOW does someone make sure they have the right Inspector!
Especially for those new buyers like me who know nothing about nothing and no-one through others.
If your still interested in supporting your fuenace to expose the floor beneath, I usually use 5/16" chain fed under in 2 spots and attached to the joists above with 3/8' thru-bolts. I have done this numerous times to pour new basement floors and never had a problem - good luck!
Thanks.I will give it a try tomorrow. One step at a time.
Kind of an off-beat thought but since you are in Toronto... you could always try to contact the "Holmes on Homes" folks. Mike Holmes is a contractor with a TV show that runs around fixing up problems for folks who have hit the wall in terms of options. You never know, yours could be a project they would consider.
you mention some very interesting perspectives...
as for the window...it was wholely obvious and the day we moved in we realized it was an oversight.
at the time the window would not have prevented me from buying the house...as well the seller was motived and i doubt they would have refused a fix had it been mentioned. all items listed on the inspectors report were addressed and remedied by the previous HO. this included a 10K dollar sewer hookup due to a faulty septic system. it should also be noted that we bought a 50 year old house that had many items that needed updated...so some more problems were to be expected and later found.
i would suggest that the OP look carefully at all contracts related to the purchase of this home. when i had the sewer hookup completed the funds were escrowed at closing. the estimate from the plumber was approximately 9K+. There was no provisions for lawn restoration. i had to fight for the balance of the funds to cover the restoration. interestingly enough I recommended the approach the attorney used to persuad the pervious HO to settle. We argued that because the original purchase agreement defined the condition of the property and that we had not received that condition. he was liable for reconciling the situation to the original contract terms which superceded the escrow contract. i was quite proud that my method resolved this stalemate after 6 months of arguing. but it also taught me that there are very real legal methods that are hidden in contract law for resolving issues that were overlooked.
I dont mean to hijack this thread, but I have to make some comments.
If an "Inspection Plus" is really needed to get down and dirty on a home, then why is the basic inspection even offered at all?
We had our home inspected, and by the time we had lived in it for a while we decided that the inspection was next to useless. There's so many limitations and restrictions in the fine print, it renders the inspection report flaccid.
I'm in Canada as well, and I've heard many rumblings lately about the government stepping in and creating some legislation and standards.
I also think that HI's are too cosy with realtors, at least in my neck of the woods. I'm not trying to offend, or denigrate your profession, but the whole HI business needs some serious revamping. My buddy is a HI, so I do get some of the inside scoop on the business. 99% of his jobs are referrals from realtors. So even though the prospective buyer pays for the Inspection, guess who never gets calls from realtors if his inspections show faults in homes?
This woman should have been protected by the individual HI who took her money, and by the system at large that lets this crap happen.
She deserves satisfaction. Hope she gets it.
Inspectors & Inspections
Does your state/province require inspectors be licensed &/or accredited?
BTW, how does a buyer know if s/he is getting a quality inspection? I just went to a friend's inspection and it lasted only 20 minutes - how much can really be inspected? What is reasonable to expect of an inspection?
As for your foundation issues - I agree with the previous poster who stated you go after them legally; look for agencies that work with low-income &/or fair housing issues - these folks most likely will be able to direct you to others who can assist at a lower fee.
Love to floss,
Sorry to hear of your situation,
How long have you had the house. I wonder where it is located? You being SWF don't give out to much location information! Today most areas require home inspection before mortgage can take place. Most places require the seller to divulge all known defects to the buyer. The seller surely must have been aware of the foundation problems, probably the reason the property was put on the market.
Have you checked out a good real estate attorney? I am thinking you could have a good legal cause for a law suite against the seller and real estate agency.
You say you have peat moss under the foundation? That sounds really nasty. Any fix would first require a soil and hydrology survey to determine how to attack the problem.
Hope you are able to make good contacts to help you with the best course of actions in your case.
I will say a prayer for you,
Virginbuild
Thanks,
Sadly I can't afford an attorny.
I thought about sueing the owners, but was told it could take 2 plus years and no guarentees.
I went once for 1hr consult for 250/hr and they billed me 1,000.
All other requests I made for legal help and hoped for on a contingency basis was declined. Everyone is worried about paying there bills and the time it will take and there are NO guarentees. I'm in Canada and I think there is less opportunity for contingency forms of legal help. Unf ortunatly I, not they, have to go home to a place that has a constant smell of a treatment plant,so it is easy to see why they don't feel my despiration. I have also cought on video 1,000 of long white parasites wreathing around in the sewege. I've had to learn to aquire a steel stumach.
As bad as it seems I have to time myself so I don't use the facilities and wait til I get to work. Basiclly I am emotionaly exausted and am trying anything I can to get some advise. even if it means doing the work on my own to get out of this mess.Thanks for your prayer, cause I sure have had some pretty pathetic days that have felt hopeless.
All I can really do is believe in myself enough totry to do it on my own I really limited with options. So been trying to find a source for information on how to start this process. Thats when I found this place.
Edited 9/23/2006 11:32 am ET by Love to floss
Wow! What a dilemma! Do a Google search for "free legal help Canada", you will get a bunch of services that could help you. Good luck
I'm sorry to hear about your situation...very scary...
You came to the right place to get advice...the best of luck.
First, be sure to document everything: every phone call, letter etc.
Second: read the contract you signed thoroughly - must HI's have various limitations - on liability (but that isn't set in stone) but also notice requirements as to when and how to give notice.
So, right now, send a registered (Same in Canada(?) - give proof of receipt)repeating everything found and done to date and setting forth a general claim for repair or compensation.
It may well be the HI has E&O insurance which may cover your costs.
But be sure to dot your "i's" and cross your "t's" to reduce things they can throw up as a defense.
It will take a structural person knowledgeable in the local area, such as soil conditions and construction techniques, to devise a solution: one possibility would be "mud-jacking" where they pump a concrete slurry under the slab to fill the void, which is often the least expensive way to go - but I emphasize local expert knowledge is needed.
I've emailed you a very respected name (across N America) in home inspections from Toronto as a possible lead/source for help. (I hope that wasn't the company!)
A couple of general observations: home inspections are conducted to a generalist level and we can't see through concrete.
Also, the market will only pay so much for a home inspection, and since we have to make a living, that restricts the amount of time we can spend on any one inspection, and there is a lot to look at in a house.
Also, HIs are generalists: when we see evidence of significant structural issues, we will usually recommend further evaluation by a specialist. (Kind of like a family doctor, but we aren't as smart or rich <G>)
It is impossible to know on the info available whether the HI should have found the situation and/or recommended further evaluation.
But I mention these things for "balance"
“Experience doesn’t bring wisdom, experience evaluation does. When you fail, stay down there for a while and figure out what went wrong. Don’t run away from your failures, evaluate them and learn from them.”
Dr. John C. Maxwell
OK Lv2floss: I live in Toronto too. Where the heck are you finding soils that are "peat moss"? And by " an underground stream deeper down", I presume you mean that the house's footings are sitting just above the permanent water table, such that when you dig a hole to that depth it fills up with water. This "underground stream" business is usually a result of somebody's misunderstanding of hydrogeology. How was any of this determined, by the way- was this opinion on someone's part, or is it based on observations made by excavation done on the outside? The inside hasn't been excavated I presume, because you say you still have concrete under your furnace (for the timebeing anyway). Some photos and some clearer description of what your "friend" did for you to assess the problem would be important.
First of all, it's a semi-detached house with a common bearing wall. Before you pretty much anything on your side, you'll need to get the neighbour involved. Unless of course you own both sides!
I hear you about home inspectors: ours missed some serious water infiltration and foundation wall cracking due to poor sloping of the neighbour's driveway. Their inspections do tend to give you a false sense of security, and their limitations do tend to remove most of the value from their inspections. But they ARE trained to look for certain things. Does the place have a finished basement? If not, there's no excuse for them not to have sighted along the plane of the joists looking for settlement. They also examine other cues to these problems, like doors that are out of square etc.
As to the previous owners and their liability: I doubt you're going to get very far with that tack. Levelling a basement floor can hardly be compared with hiding a known condition. It's just renovation, and I suspect that's how a judge would look at it.
This house has been there for at least 50 years, right? It's hardly plummeting into quicksand! It's extremely doubtful that the "wiring has stretched" or the rest of the plumbing is about to fail due to being pulled out of line. I take it that the house has got some serious settlement issues, along the double-loaded common bearing wall between the two units: quite frankly it sounds like just about every semi-detached house in the Beaches, Leslieville and many of the other neighbourhoods south of the Danforth. With or without a sewer line problem, most of these old semis have settlement issues of varying degrees of severity. Some of them have their footings in saturated soil. Some of them don't have footings at all.
Sounds like the settlement has been enough to bust the old clay sewer line running out to the street. Has this made the settlement worse? Possibly. It's likely that repair and some limited underpinning might solve it. But we'd need to see photos to be sure.
Forget about Holmes on Homes: his show consists of indignantly repairing the work of hack "contractors" and "builders" and "handymen"- you know, places where some idiot notched the joists through to the point of collapse when relocating a toilet etc. As unfortunate as your situation seems, he's unlikely to touch it because the source of the problem is the original construction, not some half-baked reno.
You've come to a good place to collect a variety of opinions, but if you want them to be at all helpful to you, you need to provide photos and more information.
I would provide fotos and I've tried and they are too big.
The main floor was covered with leveling cement.
I tried holmes many times, even through one of his regular contractors the does plumbing work on th show...he wa in aw and said I should contact Holmes ..No success however.
My frien did nothing yet just exposed alot of stuff, joists concrete block, and the leveling cement on the main floor (on wood).
The house is in the valley west end of TO.
Was flooded during Hurricane hazel, was once a market garden. and yes from soil tests done was determined to be peat moss. NOT SUITABLE to build on. Seems like the origional developer due to the water table chose not to dig out the peat and replace it with proper soil for building on.
The underground stream is very isolated to the path it runs, so not all homes are effected.
However 4 feet below and its pretty wet. I would need a sump pump.
Hey atleast I don't have termites like in the BEACH. Just alot of happy SLUGS!
ANyway....do you do underpinning? Whats your background?
No- I don't "do underpinning". I've only ever underpinned one wall, and that's my last- and my own. Every inch of space for that underpinning was chipped out of North York clay till by hand, so fortunately my wall is going nowhere!
Sounds like you need a foundations expert more than you need a plumber!
You're still not mentioning the neighbour- if it's the central bearing wall that's sinking, this affects them as much as it does you. Or do you own both sides?
Regardless of whether the house is actually sitting on peat or just disturbed organic-containing fill, it's still no good. No point in underpinning if you don't have competent soil for the new footings to bear on- even if you make the new footings twice as wide as the old, you're still only halfing the pressure exerted by the weight of the house on the soil. If organic matter is there to rot away over time, the house will continue to go down until it finds a soil which bears its weight.
From what you've said, excavating the "peat" will require you to de-water while you dig. An "underground stream" might make that difficult- that implies a layer of high permeability material like beach cobbles or gravel in an otherwise low-permeability soil like silt or clay- basically a "drain" connected to a lot of saturated soils. You might have to dig halfway to China to find something worth building on. Sounds to me like digging this thing is a risky venture at best.
There are foundation repair companies out there who have some magic tricks up their sleeves- but sorry, I don't have a reference for you. They may have better options than underpinning given your circumstances. But many of them will be useless for the central bearing wall of a semi.
Or maybe the whole thing is just a waste of time. It took ~ 50 years to get into the state that it's in now- it's not like it suddenly decided to fall into a sinkhole. Maybe your best option is to simply fix the sewer connection, clean up the mess and sell to somebody with more tolerance for sloped floors and ongoing maintenance. Or maybe you can get somebody to jack up the house to raise the sill, re-level the foundation wall and let the foundation continue to sink- leave it for someone else to do it again fifty years from now.
Hey,...I may just get some helical piers instlled as was recommended by a soil engineer. That way 50 years or not will know that something was done and those peirs are about 20' deep.
But sewage issue first.
FYI the neighbours exterioa and interio wall sank at the same rate.
My interior wall only sank. (the common wall)
Thats why the floors are sloped.
If you live in Toronto I am sure the lot values are worth more than most structures on the lot. (especially your structure) I would not put any money into your house. I would tear it down and clean up the lot and sell the lot or build new. Another way to look at it, would you lose less money selling a vacant lot or trying to fix your house. The other thing to think about is the amount of time it will take to fix up your house as compared to selling the lot and moving on. either way the finacial hit will be hard.
From what I know of the legal system is that everyone but the lawyer loses, I am sure Canada is better then the US in this regard. good luck
I don't know how you install helical piers, but I'm having a tough time imagining how you install 20' deep piers of any type at intervals along a central bearing wall in an existing semi-detached house.
If you merely stabilize the front and back foundation walls, neither you nor your neighbour will be happy long term. The unsupported middle of the central bearing wall will almost certainly continue to sink.
If the neighbour's side is OK, you can't jack the thing up on your side. So regardless what you do, you're going to be stuck with sloped floors.
Best bet: fix the sewage line, clean the place up and either live there as is or sell it.
Thanks for reminding me just how much of a PITA it can be to own a semi!
Actually, the flors can be jacked up.
The joists are not shared with the neighbours side.
Tha actual wall would not be jacked. Above each joist the cinder block is chisled open about 6". The floor is then jacked up slowly and shimmede from the underside.I was told the windows are not even part of the intrior construction. The house is a fifty year old war time construction. The exterior is cinder block and then one layer of brick.
The helical piers can be done from the inside but sections are joined as they are inserted.
This is what I've been told.
OK: I understand your construction better now. You have a block masonry wall separating the two sides of your semi, which makes your situation different than most. Is the blockwork cracked from all the settlement? If so, how did the home inspector miss it on the brick veneer?
Personally, I'd live with the floors out of flat, but that depends on what you like to do with your money. Obviously you can't live with the broken sewer line!
I'd be very interested to see how they install those helical piers in an existing basement. Whether they're augering or driving or vibrating them into the soil, the equipment must be pretty neat if you can get it down (and back up) a flight of stairs! As I said, some of these foundation repair guys have some "magic" up their sleeves- this sounds like it fits that category. My brother's addition was installed on driven piles- tough to do that on a semi. One good thing about driven piles- you can drive the pile until you reach the required bearing capacity as determined by the displacement you get with each "tap" of the hammer.
Best of luck to you!
I'll keep you posted with info. I have another engineer re helical piers coming to give me another quote. I'm going to gt more info from this guy, because I was not present when the first engineer came by.
When we framed houses and they hadn't poured the basement floor yet, they held the furnace up by using steel straps to hang it from the floor joists. That may work (depending on how heavy the furnace is).