Just curious…
I’ve never lived in what I would consider a small town. All my life has been spent in areas of 100,000 people or more.
My naive idea is that living and working in a small town where competition is less and more folks know you personally would be good for business. Is that the case or am I just dreaming it is and too many trips with the wife to Vermont, Pennsylvania and other areas with small communities has me tainted for wanting to live there and be the guy everyone knows and trusts?
Mike
Replies
The problem is, it will take you quite a while to become the guy that people know and trust. Until then, you'll be an outsider trying to take work away from the people they already know and trust. Breaking into a small-town scene is not easy, personally or in business.
I don't know the business end, but contractors I know who do quality work were always booked well ahead. I had to book for having a new house built a year and a half early. They were able to charge a fair price for their work. They never had to compete on price.
As for living in a small town there is much to commend it. You give up convenient shopping and chain-restaurant dining, but gain things like having all the merchants know your name, chatting with the mayor walking his dog, keeping in touch with all the goings-on.
The year my house was built people all over town knew me as "the guy building THE HOUSE". Once the guy stocking the dairy case in the market stopped me in the store and said what a beautiful house it was coming along to be and that he really liked the tile in my upstairs bathroom. I wanted to say, "who are you and when were you in my bathroom," but thanked him and chatted for a while about the weather and whether the dairy farmers would get a third cutting of hay in that year.
When my brother visited some years earlier the NY Times headline read "Reagan and Gorbachov Meet at Summit"; next to it the local paper headline read "Sandwich Shop Moving Across Street". A few years ago the page three article (with photo) was titled "Flaming Poo on Porch Upsets Resident".
You will have trouble finding building materials other than run of the mill commodities. You'll have to travel far for high end or uncommon items. Depending on the incomes in the area you could have trouble finding a lot of moneybag clients, but all you really need is a steady string of good ones.
I'm a big city guy that just moved to a small city. I'm a fish out of water to say the least. Luckily, I've had enough contact in the area for several years to know a few people...very few.
The idea of me being their goto guy for construction will take some serious time or perhaps some other major project that causes a paragigm shift in their thinking.
I'm curently pursuing the major project idea. I've got one under contract and review (the 40,000 sf school renewal) and am close to agreement on a smaller but just as dramatic commercial building in the downtown area. I think that if I land the small commercial building (4200 sf) and do an economic redevelopment on it, I'll be in perfect position to be a niche builder in the downtown area.
Your big city/small town question is a good one. There are certainly some different cultural attitudes that you have to be aware of.
blue
I grew up in a small town in rural MN.
Walk around, and you'd think everyone was pleasant, friendly, and generous.
With most, scratch the surface and, and to one degree or another, you found them to be narrow-minded, closed-minded, provincial, wary of strangers, wary of anybody that didn't look like them, religiously intolerant, and generally threatened by any social/political changes that were taking place outside their small town cocoon.
Certainly not all could be so described, but during my time, I could count on one hand the folks that didn't fit this mold.
Starting a business would be the most difficult way to enter this community. You'd have to spend an enormous amount of time getting involved in community activities just to show them you are a decent guy. Gaining true acceptance and trust generally took years (and years), since they had to be satisfied that you "shared" their basic values (and biases, and prejudices, etc.).
So small town life is not always what it seems to be on the surface.
My advice would be to spend a considerable amount of time in the town of your choice before calling the moving van. Mine was not only small, but inbred -- in the sense that most of the residents had been born there, lived there through their entire life, etc.
Another town that has seen a lot of emigration might be a whole different kettle of fish.
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"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Guys,
Interesting responses...thanks.
Don't get me wrong as I'm not intending on moving anywhere as the wife has a career where we are and can't move. I'm just curious about it all. She grew up in a very small town and I wondered if those of you that had found it beneficial to your business.
Or maybe as some have indicated, it just appears that way from the outside?
Thanks
Mike
"I wondered if those of you that had found it beneficial to your business."
Beneficial in many small ways. For instance, in a plumbing emergency the local hardware store will open up just for you on a Sunday. Or you can get materials on credit just by asking - no paperwork. Or walk in and out of the tool rental place without having to sign for that expensive demo hammer. While on a job, never being further than 5 miles from the yard or supply store.
The downside is that small town economies tend to be cyclical to a greater extent than in big cities.
Two things in your first post struck me.One was the idea that there's LESS competition in a small town. I don't know that I se that at all. There's still the same ratio of contractors to homeowners. There are just less of each.The 2nd is the idea that you can be "the guy that everyone knows and trusts". I don't think any one person will ever be that to everyone, even in a small town.I like to think I've built up a fair following around here over many years. But there are always a couple of guys whom I don't like or they don't like me. There are several people that I simply don't want to do business with.
While I would never want to live in a big town, I don't see it as being all that different in terms of how business is done.
Where a calculator on the ENIAC is equipped with 18,000 vacuum tubes and weighs 30 tons, computers in the future may have only 1,000 vaccuum tubes and perhaps weigh 1.5 tons. [Popular Mechanics, March 1949]
i grew up in the town i live in... the pop. has gone from 900 to 7000 ( '53 - '06 )
i like small towns... and if you get to the NE you will find the pop. is fairly mobile.. and acceptance is fairly easy
when i was in HS, there were basically 4 contractors and they got all the work
now.. the are at least 25 locals and the money people moving in often ignore them and import their own contractors
i used to know everyone... now i bet i know about 20% of the people.. but it is still small town.. just not intimate small town
a lot of areas are similar in their acceptance of new commers... high tech areas, college towns
coastal communities now tend to be retirement and 2d home communities...
so you can easily fit in.. the new-comers don't know who the old-timers are.. a little marketing can move you to the top of the listMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
The small has worn off of your town, Mike.We are on the verge of out-growing our bloomers too.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Think Disposible Income Mike--
Small towns contain considerably less monied clients with less disposible income.
If there is a considerable cottage industry or people are retiring to the area... you may be ok so long as you have budget for marketing. Lots of signeage... and keep the scope of what you do broad.
We set guys up where there is a good standard of living and 300,000+ low rise residential there. It's easy for them to thrive in those areas spending 10-15,000 a year on marketing. (decreasing annually)
Good Luck with it-- I don't need to be in the city--but I miss my friends, culture and restaurants... so I am going back.
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
I've lived my entire life in a small Vermont town (< 5,000 people). It's nice to think that you could be 'the guy' that everyone knows and trusts, but what happens if something bad happens and you're the guy that everyone suddenly knows and NOBODY trusts? Happens on occasion around here, it ain't a pleasant scene.
The construction market isn't wide open in our small communities either - if anything, there's a lot of contractors and not enough money to go 'round. You might get lucky, but you almost need to be well known just to make a good start. If I were trying to break into the trades, I might make it as a plumber, since they're all way too busy, but that's about it. Everything else, from contracting to landscaping, seems to be too much competition already.
I dont wanta sound down, heres some down parts, I moved to a small town, always the guy with the jersey accent, very hard to break in the group, Different religon, thats bad, A local numbskull will get most jobs beforeyou as most are related, Who cares if they screw you your not family, Watch out for the country bumpkin act, There sharper then a New York Hustler, Good points being brought up in a city the level of competion is higher my skills were better I never had to rely on a free pass from family and groups I was self assured,, When you go on a job and your the best man there dont think there gonna like you for it.
I live in a town of about 300 people.
As far as business, I have to do a little of everything. My customers range across all income levels and houses. I have always thought I would like to live in a larger place where I could find a certain type of work to specialize in for a certain type of client.
Sometimes materials can be frustrating to find. I can read about something really neat on BT and have trouble finding it.
As far as small town life, it has some plusses and minuses.
People have to a certain extent be honest in their business dealings because if they don't it will come back to haunt them. Bad news gets around to everyone fast and a reputation could get ruined fast.
I seldom lock my house. If I have to leave the jobsite for awhile, my tools will be there when I get back.
On the downside, I get tired of living under a microscope. Most people are trying to figure out how to show and advertise their work. I get tired of every detail being rehashed by the armchair experts in the coffee shop.
People tend to be very independent and get upset about codes and standards. If I insist on doing something according to them and my customer has a different idea, then I have a real hassle.
The worst thing is that I am in an area of declining population supported by cyclical industry. The nationwide building boom has passed us by. In fast growing areas, someone will spring for an expensive home improvement knowing their property will increase in value. Some of my elderly customers who live on remote farms are reluctant to spend money because they know they are going to be the last people to live in that house.
I can't complain too much. I started doing this kind of work to fill in. When I ran out of work, I'd move to the city and get a real job. It's been eleven years and I haven't come to the bottom of the list yet.
One further point. My (great) experience with a small town was a college town. The population included a number of people who moved in and stayed because they liked it. So the town was not very "inbred" or skeptical of outsiders, but very welcoming. I can imagine towns with very little turnover or contact with the rest of the world being quite the opposite.
Mike,
I live in Pennsylvania but I live near a city. While I don't live in it, my mailing address is actually Allentown. There was and in some cases still is a sharp drop off between city and country. People in Topton who are 25 minutes from the lehigh valley mall, haven't been "To the big city" in years.
I've been around the state a fair amount and learned a few things. After living here five years and being a regular customer of a certain sporting goods place, I went to buy my son a Davey Cricket .22 rifle.
My father-in-law came along. He said not a word the whole time. Until the gun was laid on the counter and the cash register began to ring. Then he spoke a few words in P.A. Dutch (German, but not high German) and the register stopped ringing.
I paid as much for a rifle, 500 rounds, a cleaning kit and a gun bag as he was going to charge me for just the rifle until my F-I-L spoke up.
There is a feed store about 20 minutes from me where they wouldn't even acknowledge my existance..................Until they found out who my F-I-L was.
It's been less and less so as more people move here from NJ and NY. But I still see Out of Towners ignored whent hey ask for Directions to Kutztown ( They always pronounce it Cuts-Town and a lot fo the old dutchies won't tell them where it is if they can't pronounce it.)
There are tons of places around Pennsylvania where a good one man band could work every day and be booked a year in advance. He would only make a living as he'd be competing with a lot of guys who think $30 is top dollar. And it would take a long time to become "The trusted local guy"
If it where up to me? Bucks County is where I would go. It's Rural but still very close to the Philadelphia and Trenton and some people even drive to NYC from there.
The people have money so you can amke a decenty living and it wouldn't be too hard to be accept as a local.
As others have said, small towns require more than just moving there to be a part of the community.
Getting involved in various civic organizations can help, but in a small town you'll find a carpenters reputation travels fast.
In a declining town competition for work can be intense and requires taking a significant pay cut. On the other hand being a carpenter in a booming area can be quite rewarding.
I've spent a couple of years working where there weren't towns at all--just a dozen lots out in the middle of nowhere. In that situation reputation is everything since all the homeowners talk to each other and would rather use someone with a known track record. Screw up once and it's all over.
:-)
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Guys,
Once again thanks for the great input. I guess its isn't always the "grass is greener" mentality. Its funny how you can glean a perspective from visiting and traveling thru a place and yet it may not be the true reality of living there.
I guess my perspective is just based on living just outside of Tampa which is quite large and everyone seems to be a contractor. I've lived here almost all my life and know a number of folks but it still feels like a big city...because it is!
Mike
Everyone's a "contractor" everywhere you go.
In one small town i lived in there were some old retired guys who would work for 8 bucks an hour, They hung around and were freinds with all the older folks who trusted them, They got extra money and had no lic or insurance, naturally anyone else was a thief and in one small town the BI was on me all the time as they were buddys and did there best to make it hard for me. You can be screwed before you even start. They were in the coffee shop, the church, the stores together, Try breaking in that market.The old guys got cash did not need permits used old wood and were the heros, I was a high priced city slicker, Ok sorry to go off here
"Screw up once and it's all over"What happens if you screw it up and then make it right?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
That's not so bad as long as the relationship is good at the end of the job and the overall project is seen as well run by the client. :-)
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
great thread.
My wife's a minister and we'll probably be moving to a small town sometime soon; maybe in the Catskill region of NY.
I'm hoping that having some community recognition with my pastor wife will open some doors for me.
It's gonna be interesting, one way or another.
When you are first introduced and everyone asks what you do, it will remind someone of a project they were thinking about.While you are doing that project, the neighbor will be watching and talking to the original customer. It reminds them of something they had been thinking about.Those two customers tell dozens of people about you. They get to thinking.Chain reaction.I don't know if this is true, but it seems people in a small town have a bigger network. I am amazed when I visit friends in the city, they don't know the people a couple of houses down or across the alley.
Yes, Word of mouth advertising is more effective in small towns, I think partly because relationships overal are more closely knit. They know you not just as the roofing contractor, but also as the scout leader, the sunday school teacher, the guy who bagged the biggest buck, or the one who was fooling around with the band leader's daughter...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
It's really important to go in with the right attitude from the very first visit. Assume nothing... be polite...be willing to go along with local customs. If you buy land, do not immediately close it to hunting & snowmobiles, even if you hate hunting & snowmobiles.
Instead, say to your neighbors, "Why, I'd be glad to have you hunt my land...it's those drunk guys from the Bronx (fill in location of your choice) that I worry about."
"Wow - you belong to the Coon Club? Just let me know what nights you're going out, & I'll shut the sheep in the barn."
Do not get 2 big dogs & let them run loose - even if there are other dogs running loose.
Be more than a good neighbor - be an excellent neighbor. Volunteer for the ambulance squad, or the fire dept., or whatever needs voluteering for.
Donate piece of furniture you made, or a gift certificate for a few hours of your time, to whatever fundraising event comes along. We donated a meat lamb for the fire dept. raffle, & a bunch of lamb meat to the resscur squad fundraiser...you get the picture.
You get back what you put in. Being married to the minister will be a good thing.
That depends whether you are worth knowing or not.
I have spent most of my life in small towns. There are two types of people who live there as a general rule - not hard and fast, but worth saying....
Those who can live anywhere in the world they choose to licve, and who pick that particular location - for whatever reasons.
And those who have neither the ability, not the gumption to leave and are more or less stuck where they are.
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Harsh, but accurate._______________________________________________________________
Some days it's just not worth gnawing through the leather straps.
Yeah, I agree. I think the small wore off my town when I was in high school in the 80s and we had 4,000 students there in three grades. Second largest high school in the country at that time.
Hasn't been "small" since.
Something else to remember, While you may take a cut i hourly billing rate things and expenses are cheaper. Also your standard of what you need to buy to be attuned with the "Jonses" will also shift down scale. Bet you generally find more hunting dogs and less HD TV's
Those who can live anywhere in the world they choose to licve, and who pick that particular location - for whatever reasons.And those who have neither the ability, not the gumption to leave and are more or less stuck where they are.
Outside the Bible, truer words were never spoken.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Book of Merlin
Piffin's observation might also shed new light on the character and guts of migrant workers....
To top it off, their plunge is into another culture, another language.
Well, there goes this thread into the toilet...LOLThere is another side to this too though...When in CO, a new builder moved to town from Tyler, TX
As he was getting going, we had a visit from another friend from that area, and we mentioned the common acquaintance. This second friend was an old and wise greybeard wo counseled us to, "Watch out for that guy and keep a close eye on him. Things are going so good right now in Tyler that any contractor who leaves is downright crazy. There may be a reason why he HAD to leave town, so just be careful."It turned out that he was right. Three years later, That guy loaded his family in the middle of the night and vamoosed, leaving unpaid bills behind.What amazed me is how a reputation can follow you across thousands of miles. In that case, it was on general principles only, and not necessarily on personal knowledge. But I noted that same later when I moved 270 miles across the state of Colorado. One reason was because we had gotten married and DW and kids were better off in the new town, but also because I wanted out of roofing and into remodeling. i wasn't there more than two months before realtors and builders were calling me to do roofs with the statement, "I hear from so and so that you are the best roofer in ____county, Glad you moved here so I can use you"I was absolutely amazed.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
That is true, as it was for our forebears.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Book of Merlin
oak river mike,
consider the possibility that you are missing an opportunity RIGHT where you currently are.
consider the possiblility that almost all the positive aspects people here have mentioned about small town life-----are readily available to you right where you are now.
Over the years I have described here many times how the majority of my work comes from about a 12 block radius. I live in a city of 200,000 plus---with many times that figure within a 30 minute radius.------ my customer base however comes from one neighborhood--and more specifically one roman catholic parish. 3 generations of my family have lived here, 3 generations of family either worked,taught,volunteered our attended as students the parish school. My wife currently teaches there-- I coached there for years, my sons went to school and played on the teams there, I roofed the new church building etc.-- my truck and yard signs are seen every day by the neighborhood etc.--------- when I work OUTSIDE the neighborhood-- there is almost always some connection ---some referall from someone back in the neighborhood.
12 block radius?----- that's probably smaller than most small towns you are thinking of.
My neighbor---directly across the street. Successfull landscape contractor. attended the same highschool across town as my wife,myself,my sons, my sisters and one brother---his kids etc.
My oldest son worked for him last summer before college( in fact he is working for him today when he is home for Thanksgiving break) My son tells me that probably over 80% of my neighbors business is servicing customers connected with that Irish,roman catholic high school across town that we all attended. He doesn't do a lot of work in THIS neighborhood----but he has another "community" that he services( people who are irish enough,catholic enough , religous enough and affluent enough to have paid tuition for their kids or attended themselves that specific school.
I met another contractor this summer when I was doing a roof outside my neighborhood( a referall from someone inside my neighborhood---in fact the customer had recieved referalls from 4 seperate people all telling him to contact me)-----anyhow-- the contractor I met----specializes in VERY high end remodels within ONE very high end community about 10 minutes away from my house. turns out my family has known contractors family for 2 generations through the catholic parish---and his shop is actually within my 12 block radius----but professionally our spheres never overlapped---untill I entered "his" high end customer base in one particular community.---- i have since been told he NEVER advertises--- but goes from one highend remodel to another within that community based on word of mouth-- he probably has keys to 1/3 the houses in that neighborhood.
I would also point out that in any city above a certain size---there are most likely specific neighborhoods that people move into---and never leave. neighborhoods desireable for a variey of reasons ranging across the economic spectrum. I have been in neighborhoods where none of the neighbors knew each other----and in others where a LOT of the residents know the family histories of houses going back 2-3 generations.
the point of all of this is-------- you don't really live in a town of 100,000--- if you choose not to think of it as such
instead you live as a member of several communities based on social,geographic,religous,political affiliations-----all of which you can make an effort to tap into.
It can't be a predator/prey relationship though. the community has to see that it benfits the community to support YOU. they usually recognize that fact by becoming aware of how YOU support them by coaching,volunteering, donating money to the new church, advertising in the parish newspaper, buying uniforms for the local baseball teams etc.
Best wishes to you, Stephen
"the point of all of this is-------- you don't really live in a town of 100,000--- if you choose not to think of it as such"
That is so true.
When I lived in a big metro area, the people of my neighbourhood behaved as if we lived in a small town. We tended to know each other, and even to be positively inclined toward those we did not 'know'. Consideration for others lubed everyday interactions. Of course, there was a steady influx of folk from distant neighbourhoods - they were the azzholes. just kidding.
This is not to say that small town folk are necessarily 'better' human beings. It's more likely that they behave nicely because if they drive aggressively, shove in line at the grocery store, fail to hold a door open for another, the whole town will know within 24hrs. This phenomena encourages circumspection and self-regulation. The same folk, were they living anonymously in a big city, might just behave more rapaciously: if I cut this guy off, I'll never see him again.
Here's another phenomena. Some of our local single women who are 45 yo or more will travel hours to the big city to go bar hopping and get their bottoms waxed. Here in town, they are seldom seen in the bars. Protection from wagging local tongues I'd guess.
A slight digression:
Moving from Ontario to British Columbia, I thought naively that I'd be leaving behind petty jurisdictional squabbles. In Ontario, being close to Québec, most folk would tut-tut at the people living on the other side of the river. Here in BC, it's the folk from Alberta we ridicule: for their driving, for their me-me-me attitudes, for being 'pushy'. When you get to know them, as I have, they are fine.
Your comments about social networks are right on. I have yet to bust into our local big spending 'Baptist' community - and I've tried. Maybe if I attended their services...
I dont wanta sound down cause i like a small town, But just things i ran into, Wanted to putup a sign at the ballfeild, Nope all full up, Wanted to coach little league for my kids nope got enough coaches, wanted to sponser a team , Nope got a waiting list, Go to church, every church has the church contractor there thats the hero, Do you think there gonna fall all over themselfs cause you show up? When they have it sewed up? If a lumber mill closes every man is a contractor, Every guy with a pickup can do side jobs. If you move somewhere you have not been you should have money for a while, I dont want to move just cause i have a handle on who the bad apples are, If i went somewhere else i would not know unless i had some friends to tell me.
Yeah, small towns suck don't they?
Thanks Stephen! I appreciate the input and to a certain extent I think you may be right.
As I said, I'm not moving anywhere just having trouble generating work in our area right now. We either can't get the phone to ring or if we do and work up an estimate its way more than the folks thought it would be. Even in my own area, the place I lived all my life...The work just doesn't seem to be there.
I guess I'm just doing my "dreaming" as to what it would it would be like to be "Mr Builder" in Anytown, USA. :)
But once again, I do appreciate that line of thinking. Thanks!
Mike