when billing by the hour, how do you list the breakdown of hours? do you list each position. IE carpenter, apprentice, labourer, etc… and give total hours for the period or do you break it down by the day? do you list each guy by name?
what are some of the methods you guys use and customers prefer?
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we only have a Day, or Half Day rate ....
save's arguing over "minutes "
haven't heard that approach before. couldn't some still argue that they are getting short changed if lets say you only have six hours of work to put in on a given day, yet they getting charged for full 8 hour day?
anyway, what I want to know then, is do you list each guy by position and of each guy name or position and rate only.
EI 2 carpenters 1 day each ( 8 hours each) or similarily 5 days ( 40 hours)
or Bill and Bob - carpenters 1 day each ( 8 hours each) " "
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couldn't some still argue that they are getting short changed if lets say you only have six hours of work to put in on a given day, yet they getting charged for full 8 hour day?
I don't use that method, but have considered it. The problem with small jobs (using your six hour job example), is what are you gonna do with the other two hours? Usually, the guys just get sent home early which usually suits on Fridays, but most other days causes a little grumbling. I have a minimum charge, which helps counter this. I don't really like T&M jobs, but small jobs and add-ons are often tough to bid due to time constraints.http://grantlogan.net/
"he ot the placed closed down whyyy thhhattt nnooo gooodddd" - sancho
I'm not a builder, just a graphic/web designer.But the best advice I ever heard was at a conference when Clement Mok (a nobody outside the graphic design world) was asked how they billed their time.He said '4 hour minimums...you can't do anything worthwhile for a client in under 4 hours'. He then continued 'I'd rather charge in 8 hour blocks'.I agree with those that say 4 hours or just 'to the day'. Anything less is just inviting the client to start bickering over minutia.I recall in college having an hourly job where we had to bill client work to the tenth of an hour. It took us longer to figure out 'tenths of an hour' than to actually get the work done.
EXACTLY
Depends on the job.
If it's a simple 4 hour T&M job I just bill it at 4 hours with out any further explanation, Materials are a separate line item.
If it's a larger job, for example last year what started out as a "simple" window replacement ended with us rebuilding the entire front wall of a house...
that one was broken up as Demo X hours, Framing Y hours, Sheetrock Z hours, Clean up C hours etc. again with materials as a separate line item for each category, that was mainly to help explain away the WOW factor of the final bill, cause it shocked me.
With either I'll separate X hours Carpenter Y Hours Apprentice/Helper at their rate.
We don't ever bill by the hour, always by the job. Reason being our hourly rate would be so high it would freak people out. I do "quote" hourly when we are doing consulting, teaching classes, presentations, etc as folks will pay for that but any real building work is priced per the job.
Mike
finally some with common sense ..you can Itamize yourself right outta BizBy the way ..6 hour day ..?? the extra 2 hours are " mobilization "
"finally some with common sense ..
you can Itamize yourself right outta Biz
By the way ..6 hour day ..?? the extra 2 hours are " mobilization " "
I'd like to hear some more of your thoughts, especially the second line
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mobilization ..??i.e. pick up tool's / material / plans ...from shop..return such to shoptool rental ...You .... do charge for your Air Compressor / Nailers / etc ...? RIGHT ..??
I wanted to know what you meant by "itemize yourself out of business"
How does one charge for air compressors and nailers? They get paid for in the overhead do they not? I pull out my framing gun......I charge x dollars per hours it was used? how does that work? View Image View Image
We do quite a bit of work t+m and bill weekly. The bill reads something like -
35 hrs @ 52.00/hr = 1820.00
38 hrs @ 40.00/hr = 1520.00
38 hrs @ 35.00/hr = 1330.00
Couldn't figure out how to underline, but then I add the labor charges into a total. Under that is a materials total (copies of invoices are submitted along with each bill). Then add the labor total and the materials total and mulitply by the agreed mark up for profit. Then multiply by applicable sales tax to get the total due.
Straight forward. Clear as a bell. Works great for our little company.
Why would you pay your crew for eating lunch? Never been on a crew that does that. Huck said it first. I just agreed with him.
will you lump all guys in same postion together are separate them as well.
using your example...but with with second guy or would you total that position to add up to 70 hrs?
35 hrs @ 52.00/hr = 1820.00
35 hrs @ 52/hr = 1820.00
38 hrs @ 40.00/hr = 1520.00
38 hrs @ 35.00/hr = 1330.00
as far as lunch goes...I always got a paid lunch, the crew I used to work with. And likewise my partner did too with crews he worked with. But I have know idea how they were billed. View Image View Image
jim,
i have worked with 2 crews where not only where the workers paid for lunch---but the meal itself was paid for!
the first crew was run by a good old boy"all work hand nailed"-----work would start each day somewhere between 7:30 and 8:00-----usually the roof section for the day would be torn off, bad wood replaced and the roof felted in by10:30-11:30 each day
"good old bo" would then take the entire crew to lunch---frequently subway---but the "good old boy" also had a string of diners and such that the crew frequented that ran dollar burger deals on various days of the week.
typically they worked from 8-11--lunched 11-12--then went back and shingled the roof---usually done by 2-3 each day. Each member of the crew was paid a dailey rate-----so if the job for the day was completed before noon--everyone was paid a half day----if they worked even one hour after lunch they were paid for a full day. generally---everybody got a days wages PLUS lunch for 5-6 hours labor a day.
second crew was composed mostly of former members of the first crew--and worked a variation of the same arrangement.
this was maybe 10-12 years ago-----and while most of the guys complained of low pay-------they stayed working with the "good old boy" year after year after year.--highest paid guy was paid maybe $140/day---and some of the grunts were paid $60/day they all appreciated the short workday.
Actually thinking yesterday that i might institute a similar work system like that for next year.
stephen
In Arizona where I live, any contractor or subcontractor who furnishes labor and materials must do so on a cost plus basis. To prove the costs, the statutory law requires that bills or invoices must be provided to the property owner. If the contractor or subcontractor fails to produce invoices for materials, then he cannot ask for reimbursement for the cost of materials. If the contractor or subcontractor fails to provide bills or invoices from the persons who perform the labor, then he cannot be reimbursed for labor costs.This is all outlined in sections 32-1129.01 and 32-1129.02 of the statute law.
no option for a fixed price contract in Arizona?
The statutory law requires bills or invoices to be turned in to the property owner. These bills are then deemed certified and approved if the property owner does not file a written objection to a labor or material bill. For example, if a material bill is received for five glulam beams and no glulam beams are called for in the plans or used on the project, then the property owner can file a written objection within 14 days of receipt. The contractor or subcontractor would then have to prove how that is a cost.By fixed price do you mean cost plus a fixed price as compared to cost plus a percentage?
Subbies working for us are paid time (labour + Overhead) from base until back to base. They provide all their own normal tools of trade, e.g. spanners hammers, saws etc, with large or specialist items provided by the 'boss' or hired, in which case a charge is passed on. All materials are charged for at trade plus mark up rates. It seems to work out without questions and copes with almost all contingencies.
Here is what our statutes say:Section 32-1129.01, subsection A: "Progress payments shall be made on the basis of a duly certified and approved billing or estimate of the work performed and the materials supplied during the preceding thirty day billing cycle, or such other billing cycle as stated in the construction contract." Section 32-1129.01, subsection D: "A billing or estimate shall be deemed approved and certified fourteen days after the owner receives the billing or estimate, unless before that time the owner or the owner's agent prepares and issues a written statement detailing those items in the billing or estimate that are not approved and certified. An owner may decline to approve and certify a billing or estimate or portion of a billing or estimate for unsatisfactory job progress, defective construction work or materials, failure to comply with other material provisions of the construction contract, third party claims filed or reasonable evidence that a claim will be filed, failure of the contractor or a subcontractor to make timely payments for labor, equipment and materials ... "Section 32-1129.01, subsection I: "Payment shall not be required pursuant to this section unless the contractor provides the owner with a billing or estimate for the work performed or the material supplied ... "Section 32-1129.04, subsection E: "A contractor or subcontractor that suspends performance as provided in this section is not required to furnish further labor, materials or services until the contractor or subcontractor is paid the amount that was certified and approved, together with any costs incurred for mobilization from the shutdown or start-up of a project."Labor and material costs are contracted costs. Section 32-1121, subsection A, paragraph 14 pertains to contractors who need not be licensed: "Any person other than a licensed contractor engaging in any work or operation on one undertaking or project by one or more contracts, for which the aggregate contract price, including labor, materials and all other items, ... is less than one thousand dollars."
I meant a true fixed price X dollars to do Y. Not cost + a fixed fee or cost + a percentage.
Most of our contracts are fixed price for an entire job. If we're remodeling a bathroom for example, it will cost $14,239.59 for the project as specified. Our specifications are fairly detailed and will call out the types of materials we are using but not quantities.
The cost is based on my estimated amount of material and labor, if we do better then the estimate, that's extra money in the companies pocket, if costs run over the estimate that's on the company, the homeowner does not bare the risk.
There will be certain items based on an allowance, such as the flooring or light fixtures. With the allowance the homeowner selects the products they want and pay the actual cost.
As indicated by post #37, mechanics (carpenters, plumbers, painters, etc. who perform labor) and materialmen are third parties to a contract between a property owner and contractor. I assume from your post that you are calling yourself a contractor and thus all persons, firms and corporations you engage to perform labor are third parties. How do you determine what the cost of labor of these persons, firms and corporations is? Do they just submit a bill and you hope that it is less than you expected? Unrelated to that, many posters calling themselves contractors state that they claim wages of employees as costs. You will notice from our statutes that employees are not considered as costs. Labor is a cost. Under our statutes, labor and materials are costs and costs are defined as contracts so that we have the aggregate contract price of labor and materials. The aggregate cost of labor and materials is the sum of all the contracts.
It's Mike's old buddy Bob HaugenYou ought to go to the tavern and join in on the political threadsYou seem to enjoy the same tired old rants
Barry E-Remodeler
I'm guessing you're a laywer?
my time is charge from office to office, with a two hour minimum. Each job, even if they was next door would get charge from office to office.example. I have three jobs that are a mile apart but 100 miles from office. travel is 1 1/2 hours each way per job. so if i just stop by, hey how it going. each job get charge 3 hours travel and two hour minimum, five hours times 3 (jobs).That would be 15 hours by noonand never show the customer the employee timesheet, its none of their business.Haga su trabajo de fricken
Edited 9/10/2007 9:56 pm by brownbagg
Man, what a load. You're billing for travel that you don't actually incur? Your company should try getting some integrity. I guess you have customers that don't know, so you can overbill the sh!t out of them and they're over a barrel.
As far as copying the owner on the employee timesheets, it's definitely their business if they are paying by the hour. If you were actually in the position of running a business, making deals with property owners, and getting your company paid I'd give that l'il chestnut some credence... but...
"You're billing for travel that you don't actually incur?"It's a policy, not an ethical dilema based on each client. It just so happens that the 3 jobs might be in one spot at one time. You don't want to keep rates and billing simple and standard. Once you make exceptions, you're just asking for trouble.
The way he's describing it makes it sound like false billing to me.
If our arrangement is that you bill me for 3 hours every time you come to my site, then that's what you do.
If our arrangement is that I pay you for actual travel time, and you bill me for 2 hours because the office is 2 hours away, but you actually just left another job 15 minutes away, then that's robbery.
fair point. yes, it certainly depends on the contract involved.
it seems like robbery but thats the way the contract written, portal to portal. some days I might have three together and someday only one job be working, so why would it be cheaper on some days. Its might not be 100% fair but its uniform, and that how you make money. so on 6 hours days the other 2 are covered. You got to think about, fuel, insurance, overtime, supplies, all the little stuff that changes daily. This covered it.As far as employee timesheet. is none of customer business. Time on job, yes but not what you paying.we use to have all the different codes and each code required paperwork. Now its Billable and nonbillable. it doesnt matter if I,m painting, pouring concrete or demo. Billable. same rate..Haga su trabajo de fricken
I'm just saying, if you bill "travel, 3 hours" when you just came from a job 15 minutes away, watch out. If the client finds out that travel is overbilled, and decides to stop paying, or worse yet sue your company, then you'll get wrung out while they check your mileage logs, billings to other customers with nearby jobs, get depositions from you and the other guys. That be ugly.
On some of my jobs I bill for travel time. I have complete mileage logs that show where I started and stopped, time in and out, etc. If they decide to examine my records I'll be able to take a nap while they're looking for evidence.
why would they have access to your Record's ..?
Suppose there is a dispute over your billing to a client. They stop paying and kick you off the job, you file a lien and a lawsuit to perfect it, their lawyer asks for copies of all your timesheets in order to support your billing. Don't think it happens??
If the client finds out that travel is overbilled, and decides to stop paying, or worse yet sue your company,its not overbilled because contract says from portal to portal, and even if they knew I was a block up the road, why would they care. if I,m there on time, not much they can do..Haga su trabajo de fricken
Owner gets copies of timesheets for each employee, which show hours per day broken into phase codes. Rates are for journeyman carpenter, mid-level carpenter, and apprentice/laborer. I decide who fits into which category. Also, I keep a job log that describes what we did each day and other progress notes. Owner does not get copies of that. It includes my own times in and out. When I work solo, I sometimes just copy the job log instead of timesheets, but when other guys are on the crew it's all time sheets.
I generally agree with the comments about not itemizing and working lump sum, but I am working on a job now that would be miserable under that arrangement. There are changes daily, major undefined pieces of work, major unknown conditions, etc. Working cost plus on this particular job has saved my sanity. They say what they want... we work... they pay.
Phase code...meaning like " framing," " demo" etc..? View Image View Image
Hey...another question..
On this hourly job we are on right now, I've been paying my guys lunch on my time...IE 8 hour day. customer gets billed 7.5 ( half hour lunch) is that how it's usually done by you guys? View Image View Image
As DavidM has said, some jobs just require this to keep your sanity but trying to keep track of things like lunch time and who pays for it would drive me nuts! I guess if you had those little key fobs where guys can digitally clock in and out right there on the site it would work easier but I have enough trouble keeping track of the other aspects of the job let alone who is paying for lunch.
I would think this would be tedious as you could get a customer who then spends their time watching what your guys are doing and complaining if they are on THEIR time or YOUR time.
Heck, I have folks complain to me sometimes if a sub is on his phone too much and I have to tell the person, they are paying the same price whether the guy is there a day or two days and on the phone or not...
I don't know that there is any right or wrong way to do it but I just try to do it the easiest way for me.
1 guy gets lunch the rest eat for 15 or 20 min i'd still charge 8 hrs. Any customer that doesn't appreciate that kind of hard work isn't worth working for. For everything else I am strict, honest and honorable about accuracy on t&m. Full disclosure is essential in good customer relationships.
>>Phase code...meaning like " framing," " demo" etc..?
Correct, although there are several within most categories, i.e. floor framing, wall framing, roof framing, etc. Probably about 20 carpentry categories on the current job.
I just write down "CDB Labor" and a number
"Lumber from XYZ lumber yard at cost plus 15%" and a number
So far nobodies ever called it into question.
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"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."