This is really a question for cabinet builders. In relation to cabinet doors, I have always used mortise and tenon joinery for my doors as well as my face frames. However I recently purchased a biscuit jointer for my face frames and it has speeded things up considerably. They claim that a biscuit joint is just as strong as most other methods. So I experimented in pulling apart biscuit joints, the wood tends to separate and splinter long before the joint ever separates, so I believe it.
So my question is, is it acceptable to use biscuit joints for cabinet doors? or should I stick to my mortise machine? Has any one tried it?
Replies
fine woodworking did a comparison recently, I'm not sure if it's on thier web site. Anyway,
Mortise and tenon is the strongest, by far, but they said that biscuts, when doubled, (cut them from one face, then turn the work over and do it again) were strong enough for most installations.
Remember that most commercial cabinet doors are put together with a routed edge and stub tenon, and they are acceptable.
If you send me your e-mail address I might be able to scan a copy and send it to you.
You could also ask this question at Knots, the fine woodworking site
Justus,
I've bneen meaning to assk, what's the thing in the box in every one of your posts?
I clicked on the icon and this is what I get,...
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Oops, I've been trying to upload my company logo as my signature, and it works on my computer. The "box" at the bottom of my screen is a nice dispaly of my logo and signature. But I guess you'd have to come look over my shoulder to see it. I'll try again, thank you for telling me, I would never have known, dang HTML!
You are not uploading the graphic.
You have a link to yahoo and it is trying to load it from Yahoo each time.
Now if you would just post your user name and password at yahoo then we could all enjoy it <G>.
Thanks, someone let me know I'm working on the problem. I'd give you my address but you have to sort my mail for me and throw away all the trash, deal?Justus Koshiol
Running Pug Construction
I make a lot of cabinetry doors that take glass panels, and like you I was looking for strength vs...
This test of mine was more to measure joint creep vs failure.
I made four doors. Poplar. One cope/stick with traditional mortise/tenon. One cope/stick with floating tenon. One frame simply butt jointed, flat stock with double #20 biscuits. One simple cope/stick. All glued with titebond. They sat for a couple of weeks after I made them up. "What the heck are those four doors for? Oh yeah!" I then squared them up on the table saw and hung them. From the free-swinging corner, I hung a 10-pound weight. I remember that eventually I had to "help" them along with more weight...but forget how much. Anyhow...after a several weeks...
The cope/stick cracked at the glue joint, but didn't fail. It was out of square by a fair amount. The double-biscuit creeped a bit out of square..maybe a strong eighth of an inch? I don't remember exactly, but I remember thinking that if it were an inset door, it would have scraped the face frame. The joint lines still seemed tight, though. The traditional mortise/tenon and the floating tenon were for the most part square. Maybe out by 1/32nd on the diagonal.
Did my test measure normal wear and tear? Nope. I was just trying to figure out what I wanted to figure out.
I usually run floating tenons. I think a double biscuit would be adequate.
Mongo --
Thanks for your post: it's helpful to hear results when someone takes the time to set up a controlled test like you did.
Out of curiosity, to what thickness do you build your cabinet doors? And what size do you use for tenons and floating tenons?
Thanks,
Ragnar
For simple kitchen cabinet or vanity doors? Doors are usually 3/4 or 7/8ths. Tenons vary...1/4 to 3/8ths. Depends.
I've got a run of doors to do next week. Either 36 or 38. Two are false (fixed decorative) captured raised panel doors and will be simple glued cope/stick, no tenons. The remainder are cope/stick with a mix of inset seed glass panels or raised or flat wooden panels. For three different rooms. They will all be floating tenon.
I used floating tenons in my own kitchen cabinets, which are all inset doors. My kids beat the crap out of them and they still hang as crooked as the day I made them.
Most of what I do is cope/stick, and that takes the biscuits out of the equation. In that case, for me it's usually easier and faster to float the tenon.
That "test" I did really wasn't all that controlled. I didn't go to great lengths to control the amount of glue on each joint, for example. I simply had extra stiles and rails left over from a run and started thinking too much.<g>
See ya,
Mongo
Thanks again for the info, Mongo.
I've been considering using loose tenons on an upcoming project, and so I'm especially curious about your experience with them on cabinet doors.
So you typically use 1/2" or 3/8" thick tenons on 3/4" or 7/8" doors, right? If you were using 2" wide stiles and top rail, and 3" bottom rail, how wide would you make the tenons, and how deep would you insert them?
In terms of executing the work, I was figuring on the following:
1) Make a few jigs and machine the mortises with a router.
2) Chop the tenons out of long "tenon stock". Round over all four long edges so that the radius would match that of the mortise. Possibly rout out a few veins to allow a way for excess glue to bleed out.
I'd appreciate any comments you could give me on the above.
Thanks,
Ragnar
So you typically use 1/2" or 3/8" thick tenons on 3/4" or 7/8" doors, right? If you were using 2" wide stiles and top rail, and 3" bottom rail, how wide would you make the tenons, and how deep would you insert them?
A typo on your tenon sizing...should be 1/4" to 3/8ths".
The depth of the mortise depends not just on the width of the stiles, but on the size and detail of the cope/stick. That said, for a 2" wide stile, the mortises would be about 1 1/2 deep. I don;t think I've ever gone more, but I have gone less. Width? With a 3" bottom rail, again, it's be about 1 3/4", maybe up to 2". Again, it depends on the detail of the cope/stick and the depth of the groove for the panel.
Jigs will help tremendously.
2) Chop the tenons out of long "tenon stock". Round over all four long edges so that the radius would match that of the mortise. Possibly rout out a few veins to allow a way for excess glue to bleed out.
That's what I do. Mill one long tenon and then cut to length. If you're conerned about excessive glue and hydraulics splitting your mortises, it wouldn't hurt to (as you mentioned) run the tenon stock over the table saw blade to mill a couple of 1/8th" square grooves on the tenons.
Aside...Breaktime has been so sluggish over the past few days. Pages are timing out when they load. am I the only one?
Mongo,
Yep, that was just a typo you cited.
When you're mortising the rails, do you use a horizontal boring machine or anything elaborate like that, or do you just clamp the rail in a vertical position in a jig?
This site hasn't been sluggish on my end of things.... I'll consider myself fortunate.
Thanks again for the info.
Ragnar
Way back when I used to bore the rail ends on a router table. Had a bit of a jig and a rail-holding device, but nothing fancy. One day, when milling a rail and with too much bit exposed, the rail suddenly disappeared leaving flesh uncomfortably close to carbide. So...
I drew up some plans and cobbled together something similar to a multi-machine. Works like a champ. Fast, safe, accurate, and reproducable.
http://www.thejdscompany.com/Multi.htm
Thanks for the tip!
Also, when glueing up these biscuit joints, I would recommend using clamps made by Bessey. If you have not used these before, you would not believe the strength of them.
Bessy K clamps are where it's at, it sure makes it easier to get a square glue up on cabinet doors. (or anything else for that matter) At $38.00 + they are an investment, but worth it Says I. Justus Koshiol
Running Pug Construction
If I recall correctly from other posts, you are in Colorado, right? If so, what part? Last but not least, why Running Pug? Do you raise them?
I'm in Carolina, The north one. :) Though I've mentioned Colorado in old posts, my in'laws have land out there that they are planning to build their retirement home on. (Salida)
I actually don't even own a pug, never have. But a long time ago I had a freind with an aptly named little pug called "Spazy" Whenever that dog got out side it would run around in a tight little circle until it fell down on the ground toung hanging out and front paws still twitching.
It always used to crack us up and I made the bold statement that if I ever owned a company it would be called "Running pug _________" I kept my word. I even found a cool Logo that ties in with the whole story. There is a copy at the bottom.
Running Pug Construction is actually a subsidary or Running Pug International
Other divisions include: Running Pug Leather Wyrks, Running Pug Productions, (our printing and publishing wing) Running Pug Auto Service, and Running Pug Ministries.
You should see the mail I get. :) Justus Koshiol
Running Pug Construction
I have a bunch of them. After reading that the trick to quality cabinets is the clamps. and boy was he right!
Try a rail and stile for cabinet doors. I even made some interior passage doors for my home with this method 10 years ago (1 - 3/8" thick) and they have no problem holding together. I have big teen boys with not so gentle ways.
I use a 1/2 inch shaper and Rockwell tool steel shaper bits. For cabinets it gives you the groove for the floating panel as well as provides a reveal on the cabinet frame interior next to the panel. I wouldn't go to the mortise an tenon unless there were great structural forces in play. For example a table leg or furniture carcass.
I don't think you could break the joint by slamming the cabinet doors forever. Good glue, clamping, and a tight fitting cutter set make a strong frame.
The problem with biscuits for cabinet doors is the rails have to be 3" or so wide, so the slot on a #20 won't show (maybe a little less, but the slots on the three different biscuit joiners I hae here are all upwards of 2 3/4, plus an allowance for slop).....that's a good bit bigger than on 'factory' doors, usually around 2 1/4". I think they would be strong enough for doors (20's, not those silly little 'face frame' biscuits). Slow, though. I know I made a LOT of shutters, some pretty huge, with them, with no failures. When I know I need the extra strength, I go M/T.
If you have access, I think the best all around approach to cabinet doors is cope/stick on a shaper; shaper tooling usually cuts a tenon that is substantially bigger than the router version, and it's a pretty good compromise between speed and strength.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
The "0"s are only 1.75", for smaller, use the hard fiberboard 1.125" mini-biscuits..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
I know how big a '0' is, and I wouldn't use anything less than a 20 for a door, is my point. The mini-biscuit is completely and utterly useless, in my opinion.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
I sent you the file I was talking about (Fine Woodworking #148 Pg 77) They did a very scientific test, and it is a very good article. I would post the file here, but I think taunton might get their feathers ruffled since they just opened up a pay per article section on their fine woodworking site. Anyway.
Traditional tenon joint came out on top, (not surprisingly)
Round edge floating tenon came in second
Straight edged floating tenon was third
and last of course was Double #20 floating biscuits
I really wish they had tested shaped rail and stile joints since they are so wide spread, also they didn't test the PC #FF biscuits.
They decided that the biscuit joint was about half as strong as the MT, but the Mortise and Tenon took a load of 6,000 lbs before breaking.
A big difference is that when the biscuits fail they fail completely, but when the M&T fail the joint cracks but stays together.
just as a side note, I had a door sitting in my shop that I "undersized" for a cabinet, just begging to be strength tested. It was an oak framed door about 36 inches tall and 20" wide. Shaped rail and stile joints(3/4 stock) with a floating center panel. I placed it on a corner and tried to rack it out of alignment, (pressing down on it with my weight which is considerable) It stayed square, or at least quickly rebounded. I'm not going to mount it and hang on it, but I would be the screws pull out of the hinges before it breaks.
Justus Koshiol
Running Pug Construction
Edited 11/22/2002 11:58:45 AM ET by Justus
I can't lay my hands on that issue this second....if it's the one I'm thinking of, are you sure it was a double biscuit joint they tested? I remember it being a single joint, but they figured a double would do much better. The test I remember was done in the lab of a colleague of mine at the University of New Brunswick (really smart guy), by a local woodworker.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
It was a double biscuit, spaced evenly across the joint, here is the diagram from the test. Justus Koshiol
Running Pug Construction
Wasnt that for a entry or interior door?
At Darkworks cut to size made to burn......Putty isnt a option
No, I'm looking at the article right here in front of me. If I remember correctly the guy the wrote the interior door article used dowels and pocket screws.
There is the good point that these are #20 biscuits, which means that the stiles would have to be very wide, I think too wide for most cabinet doors. I think this article was showing them as a leg joint on a table for example. It dosent actually say, it is simply an over view of joing two pieces of wood together at a 90 angle.
Justus Koshiol
Running Pug Construction
The other thing that needs to be factored in here also, is that the tests evaluated the strength of one joint....which tells us something....but these joints are most often used in a framed construction. It might be four legs connected by rails, or it might be rails and stiles, but it's pretty rare that any one corner is going to have to take all the load....it's usually going to be distributed among four joints, or whatever. A joint only has to be strong enough for the application. Mongos test took that into account, and the results are interesting.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
I have the Dewalt biscut jointer and one problem I hade from day one is the biscuts being too thick about half of the time. I use portacable biscuts because they are readily available. Many times I end up have to knock the bscuts into place with a couple of hammer taps.. any suggestions
ISRA# 11265
If it's worth doing... its worth doing right!!!
New!!! Home Remodeling forum
The biscuits might have expanded a little bit. I keep my biscuits sealed in large zip lock bags.
its not from moistue as I am in Colorado at 6000 feet and it is an arrid climate. I also have this problem staight out of a new container.
ISRA# 11265
If it's worth doing... its worth doing right!!!
New!!! Home Remodeling forum
They might have taken up the moisture before they got to you....I know some people pop the thick ones in a microwave for a bit....I've done it, seems to help.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Buy some dessicant bags and store one or two in each biscuit container. If your biscuits are more than six months old and have been stored without dessicants.. throw them out and buy new ones.
plastic bags, leave them on the dash where the sun will dry them out.
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
"Buy some dessicant bags"
Where do you buy them?
I get them out of vitamin bottles and from inside the packaging from items I purchase. I did a google search for you and found a company that manufactures small dessicant bags for packaging. The number is 800-989-3374. Ask them if they can name a supplier of their products in your area. Hope this helps. I dropped two dessicant bags in my 10 and 20 biscuit jars just yesterday.. got them in the packaging of a floor lamp I bought at HomeExpo.
bill
What do you think about the face frame biscuit the PC has. It supposed to be able to biscuit a 1 3/4" wide F/F. Just curious.
At Darkworks cut to size made to burn......Putty isnt a option
I think they're stupid.... those are the ones I was referring to above. I can't imagine an application where I would go the the bother of using them. I have the P-C plate joiner....sells for about $50 more than a Dewalt here; I'm on my second Dewalt (have also had Freuds, the Delta stationary one, and had or used several more along the way including Lamellos).....if the face frame biscuit is your reason to spend the extra money, it isn't worth it. Put the money towards a pocket hole jig or something. The fence that tilts both ways is a good feature for the P-C though.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
I was curious, I cant read the comment of the original question cuz i sti;; have giles on ignore. But I got the pc for the fence. I thought the smaller f/f biscuits were a plus. I havent really use them yet though as I pocket hole my F/F. I was thinking of using them on some doors where I didnt feel like taking the time to set up the rail and stile set.
At Darkworks cut to size made to burn......Putty isnt a option
Did a test today....we're doing cope/stick joinery, so I demo'ed it, and made up a joint to test....just two pieces of wood (poplar), 2' wide, about 8" long each, typical cope/stick joint made with a set of commercial router bits. Glued with PVA, and left to set up overnight.
We took the test pice, and clamped the 'stile' in a vice....one of the guys beagn to haul on the 'rail' piece. Took some doing, but it gave eventually....100% of the glued joint survived, we basically tore the rail off the stile.....the parts above and below the routed groove just ripped right off, but like I said, the joint itself was completely undamaged.
So, it confirmed to me that a cope/stick joint is more than adequate for a cabinet door, especially when you factor in that any load is distributed over four joints, and that the panel (glass, plywood, or raised), resists racking past a certain point also. FYI.
cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Adrian,
What exactly do you mean by a cope and stick joint? I understand "cope and stick" to mean no tenon whatsoever: as in coping a piece of trim. Are you talking about a very short tenon?
Ragnar
a cope and stick joint made by a router has a very short "stub tenon" if you look at the top of any factory made door you can see how it goes together. the Joint actually has a large amount of glue surface because of the profile and the stub. Justus Koshiol
Running Pug Construction
Ragnar,
This pic may clarify things a bit. And, it's even a Taunton pic. Cope and stick bits come in a matched set. The "stick" bit is used to mill the long sides of the stiles and rails. The "cope" bit is used to mill the end grain of the rails.
The milling allows the coped end of the rail to marry the edge of the stile, and the milling gives a larger glueline than you'd get with a simple butt joint.
The stick bit also cuts the groove to accept the captured panel.
http://www.architectureweek.com/cgi-bin/awimage?dir=2002/0501&article=building_2-2.html&image=11779_image_8.jpg
Edit: Sorry Justus...your post wasn't up yet when I read and posted. Redundancy rules!<g>
Edited 11/26/2002 11:30:43 PM ET by Mongo
Mongo and Justus:
Thanks for the clarification: I have been refering to it as "stub tenon".
Justus: I'm glad to hear that the joint you glued up performed so well. The first few times that I made simple recessed-panel doors, I just used a simple stub tenon. Later on, as I learned more, I became concerned that there wasn't enough glue area, so I started using a longer tenon. Maybe I've been too conservative.
Thanks,
Ragnar
No need to apologize, that is a great pic of what I was trying to say. Justus Koshiol
Running Pug Construction