Hello Pros, Experts, and Enthusiasts:
I’m planning out the trim carpentry on my house. The style is craftsman and the joints from the door casing to the door header casing will be a butt joint. Most of the houses trim is paint grade. I’m not sure if I’ll be using MDF or FJ moulding. My question is whether I should use a biscuit to fasten the butt joints together on the door and window trim. I have read about people doin this, it seems time consuming, what benefits will I see?
If its paint grade, I figure the joints could be caulked and any splitting of the joints will be hidden. But I do realize that caulk is not a piece of trim. Any thoughts are much appreciated.
Replies
I'd pocket drill "picture frames", just so I wouldn't have to wait for glue to dry. Also, stagger thicknesses to give a shadow line at every intersection - looks Craftsman and makes a better line to caulk.
I often use a synthetic 1x (3/4" actual; forget the name - Komax?) from Depot, combined with MDF 1X (5/8" actual). Stair tread material is true 1".
Mix and match
Forrest
Thanks Forrest,The shadow lines are important! I'm not sure how I could use a pocket screw though. Here's a picture of the profile that I'm going to use. The thickness of some of the moulding will vary based on what's cheaper! I'm also hoping that I can justify a new Grex 23g pin nailer for this project. Unfortunately I have a traveling day job too, so I have to hire a Pro to help me out. Otherwise, I'll never be able to move in.
No pix attached, would like to see what you're talking about.
Let's see if it works this time...:
Jointerman,
I like the sketch you've made. Have you considered chamfering the "cove" under the window stool? Similarly, you could consider chamfering the second (lower) element of your crown, or even using something like a kant strip.
Either way, I'd be very interested in seeing some pictures when you're done with the carpenty phase.
As far as execution, when I'm doing a similar head casing, I start by attaching the fillet to the bottom edge of the 1x6. The head casing will stand pretty well by itself after that, and then it's easy to set the assembly on a work surface and attach the cap elements. I might also point out that it's nice to run the 1x6 over the jointer to get a nice sharp edge where it adjoins the fillet and cap -- a factory roundover at this line produces a distracting valley.
I'd glue the fillet, but the rest of the work wouldn't really require it -- you could always do it if you felt like it.
If you use MDF, keep in mind that it does NOT receive edge nailing well (it tends to delaminate). For that reason, you'd do well to use a small gauge nail --- maybe 18 --- or maybe you could use this to rationalize that 23ga you were talking about. ;)
When I nail the casings into the edge of the jamb, I like using my 15ga gun the best. The heavier nails are much less likely to follow some wild grain and produce a shiner.
Finally, I think you'd just be wasting your time with biscuits or screws with this style of trim. The fillet will sort of get in the way, and it's very easy to achieve great results with nailing alone.
Edited 7/17/2007 3:36 am ET by Ragnar17
Sorry to spoil your tool acquistion plans, but I don't see how a pin nailer is going to be helpful trimming the house. The only time I use mine is on outside miters on stain grade moldings. Nailing casings, baseboard, even shoe molding usually takes a 15/16 ga, and sometimes an 18 ga brad nailer.
But that's just the way I do it.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
If you look at the trim detail I just posted, I think that I can justify a pin nailer to pin the header piece together before nailing that onto the door! Also, I've decided to put stain grade moulding in the entry way (and maybe in my office). The only places that I can afford it.
buy the pinner. but I wouldn't be using it for anything you've got showing there, unless you're doing a return on the header fillet. most of that looks like 18g stuff.
but the pinner is a totally under rated gun. I don't use mine a ton - but I sure love it when I find a use for it. View Image View Image
what if...someone were to say...that pocket screws and biscuits were a waste of time. especially on MDF which does not shrink.
personally I like using my biscuit joiner, and love the results of using pocket screws on picture frame trim in particularly exterior trim.
what I can't figure out is the 90 year old homes with original trim that looks awesome. and they did not have pocket screws or biscuits. why does it still look so good? is it just layers of paint perhaps that have filled in cracks?
View Image View Image
Edited 7/17/2007 2:06 am by alrightythen
what I can't figure out is the 90 year old homes with original trim that looks awesome. and they did not have pocket screws or biscuits. why does it still look so good?
Most of the the old work in that specific time period used butt joints instead of miters, and I think butt joints hold up a lot better over the long run.
"Most of the the old work in that specific time period used butt joints instead of miters, and I think butt joints hold up a lot better over the long run."
I agree....however butt joints are exactly what we are disucssing here View Image View Image
I can't really figure out why newer work done with butt joints wouldn't look and perform just fine. Have you seen failed butt joints in newer work?
I can justify the pinner for assembling and holding the header pieces while the glue dries! An 18 ga. brad is likely to be an overkill for holding the pieces together. How's that for justifying a $250 23ga nailer!Also, can I use the pinner to nail the casing onto the jamb and then a 16 ga finish nailer for the outer edge. Or am I better off with an 18ga on the inner casing?
I've used a lot less to justify a tool. Pins would be near invisible on the 1/2" material.
I'm not sure how I could use a pocket screw though.
Why cant you see it? The pocket screw will probably hold the joint better then the bisquit and as Forrest mentioned, you dont have to wait for the glue to dry.
BTW, use the 1 1/2" pocket screws on something like this as opposed to the 1 1/4".
Doug
Doug,I get that pocket screws can hold a joint. But I'm not sure where I'd put them on a butt joint. Take a look at the Trim detail I posted just a bit ago. Thanks.
Ok, I wasnt thinking about the parting strip!
I'd consider screwing the tops together, what I mean here is the very top, screw down from the top, and if you glue up those parting strips to the head piece then you could use the pocket screws(on the casing piece) because esentially the head piece and the parting strip would be one piece, does that make sense?
Doug
I get that pocket screws can hold a joint. But I'm not sure where I'd put them on a butt joint.
On the back side? - Isn't that pretty much the joint they're made for?
View Image"...an open mind is a powerful thing. The ability to listen to others is invaluable."
Jim Blodgett
Heh..heh... I guess that I didn't have dimensional clarity when I was posting!Anyway, I'll have to weigh the time needed for using a pocket screw vs. using the biscuit joiner, or nothing at all. The reason that I considered using a biscuit was that I first read about it in a Fine Homebuilding article and I thought that looked cool to try. But really, my main concern is because of the butt joint pulling apart. I assume that this will be more of a concern where I have solid wood stain grade trim butting against another piece, end grain to long grain and I might get some shrinkage. For the sake of speed, my thought is to:
1) Cut the biscuits in the header and leg casing
2) Nail the header casing to the wall
3) Glue the leg to the header
4) Nail the leg to the wall, this I hope will hold the glued butt joint together while the glue dries. From what I recall, the biscuit will swell up rather quickly.
Koma???
Jeff
I just read what all the other people have posted. Save yourself a lot of trouble and dont biscuit join. There is no need for casing. Just use a 16 g nail gun and spackle the holes. On one of the articles in FHB I saw this guy biscuit join a plinth base and a piece of moulding above it. Why? He used a biscuit joiner for his miterer casings, but then again he was using mdf. But if you have mitered casings, if you biscuit join before hand they are easy to set (nail) since you don' t have to play with the reveal and make any adjustments.
So, no need of a biscuit joiner.
The assembly above the door is called an architrave, (I think). I've done these in the past and just glued and nailed them together.
We pre-fabbed all the architraves on a bench, ran around after and shot them in, then just measured and cut the case, bit of glue, push it up tight, shoot, done.