Recently while trying to negotiate a “fair price” with an Attorney for building a deck. I was reminded of some little bits of wisdom that had been given me over the years.
1. Pigs get feed, Hogs get eaten.
2. Never look a gift horse in the mouth.
3. A bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush.
Do any of you have any other bits of wisdom to share?
Kip
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..........yeah, once while working for a lawyer and his wife using an AIA contract and beginning to get the short end............I wrote myself a note conspicuosly left about that read ; "Never work for lawyers"
Eric
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
"don't be afaid of the money" ...
"keep yer beltloops!"
Jeff
why wont sharks attack lawyers, there are the same species
Do I have this picture right?
you present the price and the potential client says, "Pigs get fed, hogs get eaten. Lower your price, you pig and I'll feed you this job or go ahead and stay with your hoggish price and I'll let you do the work and eat you alive trying to collect the payment."
So you explain how you need to feed your family which is why you want to stick with your price which is fair, and he counters, "I'm giving you a chance to prove yourself on this job sowe can talk about the klitchen next year. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth!"
At this, you get riled and throw him in the bushes and give him two birds for free, right from your own hands.
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Piffin intersting but not quite what went down.
Asked to give bid on building a deck. Placed bid. Then she wanted to make changes. I sugested some changes that could be done for the same price. She liked the ideas. Then she wanted more sq ft added (over 300), Then she wanted some realy fancy railing, Then her Husband wanted an elaborate decking pattern. I gave them a sq ft price for building the deck then told them anything fancy such as decking pattern or trim would be time and materials. As I was finishing the decking she inquired about the cost. Stating that "Its still the same price (X amount) we agreed on"? I replied NO. Its now X amount. I told her that her Husband had authorized the extra sq ft that she wanted and the elaborate decking pattern. She claims her Husband never authorized the work. She dont want to pay anything over the price of the originol deck. She told me to stop work after putting down the decking, I did. Now we are trying to negotiat a fair price. I offered to eat about $1200 worth of labor. She has badgered me for about 2 weeks now with questions over E-mail. Mostly the same question just rephrased. We have allmost come to an agreement. But now she wants to add extra work that was not even mentioned in the originol deck work ie; 2 access door in the lattice under the deck and 2 posts with wireing for lights.
I keep telling myself "I need to get paid. Dont get greedy" And I was realy upset when she asked me to itmize the labor I was going to eat.
Kip
Ask her how she bills her clients. She is the lawyer, right?
Tell her you are a professional, just like she is in her business. Tell her you expect to be treated the same.
Explain that the shameful way that many "quality" people treated "trade" in the long ago colonial days, is a thing of the past.
Didn't I see this same scenario about a week ago? You still looking for absolution?
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Yes Ed you are right. I dont think it will ever end Arrrggghhh.
Kip
bits of wisdom?
break your stories into paragraphs?
Jeff
I see the problem:
>>I told her that her Husband had authorized the extra sq ft that she wanted and the elaborate decking pattern. She claims her Husband never authorized the work.
Rule number 1. Get it in writing. Doesn't matter if the client is a lawyer or the Pope.
Get it in writing.
God never gives us small ideas.
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
What Bob said.
And for attorneys, charge 30% extra, total. They will, in my experience, try to wear you down through verbal communication. You must be compensated for this loss of time.
An attorney I use counsels me to not sublet a house I own to law students. We're not talking lawyers here, just young pups in training. It's easier to scold a pup than discipline a pit bull.
>>An attorney I use counsels me to not sublet a house I own to law students.
LOL
Very good advice!
Although it is not because they are just legal pups - at least in part (and I'd say mainly) they aren't seasoned by reality and tend to think molehills are mountains.
In my experience, litigators (or wanna be litigators) are the PITAs - most lawyers are transactional types and are trained to seek "win-win" solutions.
God never gives us small ideas.
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Edited 10/20/2004 10:19 am ET by Bob Walker
Edited 10/20/2004 10:20 am ET by Bob Walker
and are trained to seek "win-win" solutions.
unless they've been trained in arbitration and are following that "lose-lose" mentality.
Had dinner with a big time arbiter once ... said he knew he did a good job when both parties left feeling like they lost.
the logic makes sense ..... just like a divorce settlement.
Jeff
>>Had dinner with a big time arbiter once ... said he knew he did a good job when both parties left feeling like they lost.
There of course isn't any possibility that a joke went over your head, right?
And I am curious as to why you counter a description of transactional lawyers and how they seek win-win solutions from someone who has been there with a story about a dispute resolution lawyer that you had dinner with once.
My entire point is that most lawyers are transactional, not dispute resolvers.
Your response completely missed the point.
Could it possibly be that no matter what I post, you have to argue with it?
The sun comes up everyday.
The key to forgiving others is to quit focusing on what they did to you, and start focusing on what God did for you. Max Lucado
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Thanks for the post. I will be ready if a lawyer ever tries to get me to do a job. That goes for real estate agents, too.
When I do a job for a lawyer, I intend to recover the unreasonable and unfair costs that they subjected me to at times when I needed help. I ended up doing 99% of the work with them apparently getting paid primarily for being gatekeepers to the judicial system. A similar logic applies to realtors. Both have a way of billing that would make the greediest contractor blush, and that without batting an eyelash.
It would be nice to have a special forum just for this type of advice. It could include some threads like the one about shooting yourself with a nail gun and doing work for friends without a contract. We all need to be reminded that the ocean is full of sharks and other dangers.Les Barrett Quality Construction
4. nail the bottom first.
Personal bit of wisdom and from the other thread posters --their bits of wisdom also.
Oh yeah one more.
If your guts are tingling when you talk to potential clients--It's probely not those nachos you had for lunch.
"No good deed goes unpunished"
If I ever try to do something extra or go out of my way I get nailed for it.
There was a scene in the Magnificent 7 where one of the townsmen rises up and shoots one guiy and immeadiatly gets blown away. Another looks to his buddy and says:
"Sooner or later you must pay for every good deed you have done"
Sad but true.
W
Recently while trying to negotiate a "fair price" with an Attorney for building a deck. I was reminded of some little bits of wisdom that had been given me over the years.
1. Pigs get feed, Hogs get eaten.
2. Never look a gift horse in the mouth.
3. A bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush.
Do any of you have any other bits of wisdom to share?
***********************
Cash at the stairs.
Q: How do you know when a politician is lying?
A: His lips are moving.
How about these?
Don't be a pig.
Don't eat pork.
Analyze each gift as if you had worked/paid for it. You probably did.
A bird in the bush is worth four in captivity.
Shift your perspective to get a whole new world.Les Barrett Quality Construction
Working for several lawyers improved my language skills (I am German) and my ability to read between the lines. My contracts with lawyers were time and material and I never referred to the finished product. In your case of a deck addition you would contract time and material and the subject of your work would be the installation of redwood 2x6 or 2x4....whatever the material might be; do not put the wording <building a deck addition> or < finishing the addition> in your contract. I also gave an estimate as a price ceiling, but only verbal.
There is allways an exeption to the rule. One of my best customers is a lawyer and when he calls me up for a job he would let me do what I have to do and he pays when the work is done.