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Discussion Forum

Black Diamond Markings on Tape Measures

vkhiga | Posted in General Discussion on February 25, 2009 09:04am

I have a question that I need to find a suitable answer, just for my own curiousity. I asked about twenty carpenters on a jobsite and not one of them knew. There was a few guesses, but they all varied. I could tell they weren’t really sure. Which just sparks my interest more. One person said he knew, but he wouldn’t tell then. He wants me to do some investigating first and he’ll tell me later.

Let’s see what kind of response I can get from this question: What’s the black diamonds on the tape measure for ?

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Replies

  1. angusj | Feb 25, 2009 11:22am | #1

    19.2" truss joist layout.  And what else you can use it for I don't know.

     

  2. User avater
    Luka | Feb 25, 2009 12:08pm | #2

    3 studs on a 4 foot spacing.

    Googley googley googley, evil go away.

    1. JHOLE | Feb 25, 2009 01:59pm | #3

      5 for 8..

      doesn't do 4'.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City

      1. User avater
        Luka | Feb 25, 2009 08:11pm | #15

        *knocking self upside the head*I knew that. I was just testing you.;o)Seriously, though, I did know that. I was headed for bed, decided to give a quick, but short answer... And my brain decided to fart, just then.Thanks for catching that.
        Googley googley googley, evil go away.

  3. User avater
    McDesign | Feb 25, 2009 02:20pm | #4

    It's a skiing term - means the height (in 100 m) of a slope.

  4. Nick25 | Feb 25, 2009 02:26pm | #5

    19.2 Layout, is correct. Only did it once myself.

  5. Danno | Feb 25, 2009 03:11pm | #6

    That question has been discussed a lot before--you may be able to find old discussions by doing a search. I think you already have the answer now though. Lots of the old discussions had much jocularity and little in the way of serious responses, if I recall correctly.

    1. jayzog | Feb 25, 2009 03:27pm | #7

      Wow ,6 responces to this age old ?and 5 were serious.

      This place is getting lame!

  6. User avater
    Gene_Davis | Feb 25, 2009 03:33pm | #8

    It is a mark for a spacing rarely used for wall and roof framing, but used sometimes in floor framing when the frame is engineered and done with engineered lumber ("I-joists").  There is a savings of almost 17 percent in joist cost if framing at 19.2 versus 16.

    A carpenter would only know about this if he or she had encountered such a floor framing situation.  Many carpenters are not students of the latest in engineered-lumber floor frame systems.

    That's enough for new-fangled stuff.  Let's talk about old time stuff.  Take a framing square, find those tables of numbers engraved onto the sides, and march around the jobsites, asking the carpenters what they mean.  Come back and tell us what you found out about who knows what.

    We might learn that carpenters in general, while not students of floor frame engineering, are also not students of the uses of their framing squares.

    Plug 96 into your calculator, divide by 5, and you get 19.2.  Maybe you can do it on paper faster, or in your head.  I don't know.

    Look at this clip from an I-Level span table for floors.  You see the spans for joists when centers at 12", 16", 19.2", and 24" occur.

    View Image

     

     

    View Image

    "A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."

    Gene Davis        1920-1985



    Edited 2/25/2009 8:38 am ET by Gene_Davis

    1. User avater
      hubcap | Feb 25, 2009 04:33pm | #9

      need an edit there Gene80 divided by five is not 19.28'0" maybewhat is all this about markings on a framing square?No Tag

      1. cameraman | Feb 25, 2009 07:09pm | #13

        "Plug 96 into your calculator, divide by 5, and you get 19.2."

         

        My computer said 96, what did yours say?

        1. User avater
          Luka | Feb 25, 2009 08:15pm | #16

          He read and replied to the post before it was edited to say that.
          Googley googley googley, evil go away.

          1. cameraman | Feb 25, 2009 08:39pm | #19

            Didn't mean to be a smart arse but I have always wondered the same thing.

            I remember the question coming up a few years ago and about a hundered replies or so. Not one straight answer!!! But funny reading!!

             

            Thank you I have a answer, in the first dozen replies.

        2. Piffin | Feb 25, 2009 08:17pm | #17

          "My computer said 96, what did yours say?"Mine whispered in my ear with a throaty voice, "Come here, you Black Diamond Man"But I learned long ago to stay away from calculators that whisper in my ear 

           

          Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          1. dovetail97128 | Feb 25, 2009 08:24pm | #18

            ""But I learned long ago to stay away from calculators that whisper in my ear"" Funny I learned that the whisper in the ear was always calculated, and generally in the end it was going to cost me.
            They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.

          2. cameraman | Feb 25, 2009 08:42pm | #20

            My wife always wonder I am laughing out loud while I am on this site!!!!

            I try to tell her about some of the post, she just dosen't get it!!

            So I tell her to got back to home shopping channell.

          3. Piffin | Feb 25, 2009 09:59pm | #25

            especially if the whispering calculator is a real estate agent 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          4. User avater
            McDesign | Feb 25, 2009 09:11pm | #22

            <But I learned long ago to stay away from calculators that whisper in my ear>

            Man, they're all calculatin'.

             

            Forrest

          5. User avater
            IMERC | Feb 25, 2009 09:12pm | #23

            blonde or redhead??? 

            Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

            WOW!!! What a Ride!

            Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

             

            "Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"

          6. Piffin | Feb 25, 2009 10:08pm | #26

            Dirty blondeWith hair about 19.2" longHad to get back on track here 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          7. User avater
            IMERC | Feb 25, 2009 10:54pm | #27

            if she finds out yur more than likely to get derailed again.... 

            Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

            WOW!!! What a Ride!

            Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

             

            "Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"

          8. User avater
            Gene_Davis | Feb 26, 2009 01:03am | #28

            Can we get thrown off Breaktime by discussing nineteen-point-two like this? 

            View Image

            "A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."

            Gene Davis        1920-1985

          9. Piffin | Feb 26, 2009 01:44am | #29

            19.2 is legal age, isn't it? 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          10. GregGibson | Feb 26, 2009 01:44am | #30

            30 posts, and I'm the first one to say,

            It's a CUBIT ! ! !

            Greg

          11. Piffin | Feb 26, 2009 01:46am | #31

            wull, Yey-ah! 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          12. rockitrick7347 | Feb 26, 2009 01:51am | #32

            19.2 means builders save approx. 5-8 rafters per house, when building 200+ houses= free roofs.

          13. Piffin | Feb 26, 2009 02:10pm | #43

            I frame floors more often at 19.2, only occasionally roofs, but larger commercial roofs are fairly often done on 19.2 centers.it is not a cost savings thing so much as an efficiency thing. You just figure out what is the best scheme to carry the required loads. and in floors, it means a scoche more elbow room for the guys running mechanicals 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          14. User avater
            Gene_Davis | Feb 26, 2009 03:05pm | #45

            Material savings, no matter how small, are material savings, and less materials means less labor to install them.

            What do you mean by "efficiency savings" as regards a floor frame done at 19.2 versus 16?  Sounds sort of like lower labor cost to me.

            If a roof frame's rafter spacing is increased from 16 to 19.2, there is an energy savings as well, due to a reduction for the overall system in thermal transmittance.  It may not be much, but it is there, nonetheless.

            The road to lower cost and more energy efficient housing is paved with tiny incremental steps like these.  I laugh when others dismiss these steps as nothing, or describe them as not worth doing. 

            View Image

            "A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."

            Gene Davis        1920-1985

          15. Piffin | Feb 26, 2009 03:13pm | #46

            exactly - it is more the labor savings ( hinted at when I said convenience) than materials savings.One reason I don't on roofs on smaller jobs is that FG batts is very hard to get that size unless buying a whole truckful.But most times I use blown or foam in place.Point though is that anyone considering this needs to keep that in mind. I've opened up quite a few old houses that had studs framed at 19-20"oc and it is a pain to cut a wall of batts to width from 23" wide to 19.I notice in doing layouts and design work how oftyen I run into multiples for plain old human comfort. 38-5/16" comes up way often! 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          16. User avater
            Matt | Feb 26, 2009 04:16pm | #47

            To add to what Piffin said 19.2 centers are very popular for floor trusses.  Why?  Because often floor trusses can easily span the distance on wider centers - like even 24".  Problem is the standard 3/4" floor sheathing doesn't do well on 24" centers, so 19.2 is a logical choice.  And, as he says, fitting in all the mechanical, plumbing, etc into 16" centers can be challenging especially when your floor frame members (floor trusses) are 3.5" thick, cutting that 16" space to 12.5".

          17. mikeroop | Feb 26, 2009 02:22am | #35

            not saying your wrong but i can't find a definition of cubit that supports your answer. they all say 18 to 20 inches. help me out here. i want to know more.

          18. pm22 | Feb 26, 2009 03:10am | #36

            "i want to know more"

            Very well. God, the inventor of the cubit, used funny math. He based the length as one fifth of the length of a sheet of Egyptian plywood. Since the modern sheet of plywood is exactly XCVI", one Jack Daniel's fifth of that is 19.2": the modern cubit. It is used in stud and joist layout to fill in the gap between 16" and 24" centers and still provide a nailer for the ends of a sheet of drywall, gypsum board or sheetrock.

            When Horatio Stanley invented the tape measure, he -- being a devout Christian who always celebrated Christmas -- felt it necessary to include cubits on his new device. At first he tried to use yellow cubes as a tribute to the golden rule but they didn't show up too well on his yellow tapes. So he resorted in desperation to black cubes. Originally they were little isometric sketches of a three dimensional cube, but the detail got lost at such a small scale and they just reverted, to use the technical term, to lozenges or rhomboids we see today but some just call the diamonds. Oh well!

            Long live the cubit.

            ~Peter

          19. Danno | Feb 26, 2009 04:11am | #37

            Good reply--very enjoyable. I'd normally be laughing, but after the evening I've had....

             

            [Went out in the rain with my gimpy foot, and my horrible cold *sniff* (that shouild be you, not me) to teach the first night, no one at the Center has heard of the class, it is not in the computer, the room where I usually teach it has been assigned to a Karate dude. I emailed my immediate (well, actually she has been moved up a notch in the hierarchy because, apparently, she is so good at her job) supervisor a somewhat sarcastic email and will probably be blackballed from the premises.]

          20. mikeroop | Feb 26, 2009 04:34am | #40

            that's one of the many great things about this place many senses of humor :) i know what a cubit is just curious where he got the info that it was exactly the 19.2 no biggy.

          21. Henley | Feb 26, 2009 04:58am | #41

            >>i know what a cubit is just curious where he got the info that it was exactly the 19.2 no biggy.<< His tape measure.

          22. User avater
            Dam_inspector | Feb 28, 2009 02:11am | #57

            The diamonds are metric halfyards.

          23. User avater
            Sphere | Feb 28, 2009 03:25am | #58

            Actually, pretty close, a  half meter is 19.685Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

            Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations

             

            They kill Prophets, for Profits.

             

             

          24. User avater
            Dinosaur | Feb 26, 2009 04:17am | #38

            i can't find a definition of cubit that supports your answer. they all say 18 to 20 inches

            I think I remember that it was defined as the length of God's forearm.

             

             

             

             

             

             

             

            Hey! I just measured my forearm and it's 19.2" long.

            Hmmmm.

             

             

             

             

            Dinosaur

            How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....

          25. Piffin | Feb 26, 2009 02:14pm | #44

            the translation of the source word for cubit was 'elbow'end of fist to elbow is about 19" for most guys.I wonder if the measurement 'foot' came from some kings foot size 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          26. User avater
            Dinosaur | Feb 27, 2009 04:55am | #51

            end of fist to elbow is about 19" for most guys.

            Whew!!! I thought it meant I was God and I was gonna have to do something about the mess everything is in....

             

             

             

            So, it's your turn this week to fix everything, eh? Then Rez, then Gunner? I'm not on the hot seat for another month??

            Dinosaur

            How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....

          27. User avater
            BarryE | Feb 26, 2009 04:19am | #39

            Are you sure of that? Might want to read the thread :)http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=117115.12

            Barry E-Remodeler

             

        3. User avater
          hubcap | Feb 26, 2009 02:14am | #33

          80

          Gene edited his post

           No Tag

    2. vkhiga | Feb 25, 2009 08:59pm | #21

      Gene Davis has a satisfying answer to this question. I feel that my quest is done, until I find a new one. There was also a lot of entertaining responses that were funny as hell. I love it..... This is my first time posting here and it won't be my last. I have found a worthy forum.

  7. gordsco | Feb 25, 2009 04:59pm | #10

    It's for the factory computer alignment of your tape measure. If the dot at the 24' mark is off slightly, the tape is faulty and you can return it for a new one.

     

  8. User avater
    hammer1 | Feb 25, 2009 05:21pm | #11

    Everybody knows they are modern cubits unless you are working at the speed of light, then they are quarks.

    Beat it to fit / Paint it to match

  9. User avater
    Matt | Feb 25, 2009 06:35pm | #12

    The black diamonds are a subliminal marketing message for another product that Stanley tools sells - Black Diamond cologne for men.  It's very popular with the metrosexual crowd.  You see the tool company wanted to expand their target markets to the no-tools-needed population, but also want to pull in the tape measure wielding type of customer.  Most people don't know it but Stanley also sells feminine hygiene products.

  10. mikeroop | Feb 25, 2009 07:46pm | #14

    19.2 is a common layout for mobile home floor joist in ohio don't know why. only built one house where the plans called for 19.2 layout it's rarely used. thats why not many know what it is.

    1. rez | Feb 25, 2009 09:35pm | #24

      If you install security lights on your house and garage, but leave both unlocked, you may live in Ohio ... 

      94969.19  In the beginning there was Breaktime...

      94969.1  Photo Gallery Table of Contents

      1. mikeroop | Feb 26, 2009 02:16am | #34

        you've been to my house?  :)

        1. rez | Feb 26, 2009 07:37am | #42

          If you've had a lengthy telephone conversation with someone who dialed a wrong number,  you may live in Ohio ...

  11. User avater
    Jeff_Clarke | Feb 26, 2009 07:50pm | #48

    Black diamonds are used to signify steeper sloped roofs ;o)

    Jeff

    1. MikeHennessy | Feb 26, 2009 08:57pm | #49

      Close.

      Not necessarily steeper, just harder to ski down. ;-)

      Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA

      1. User avater
        Jeff_Clarke | Feb 26, 2009 09:13pm | #50

        Steeper = *Better* ;o)Jeff

  12. cliffy | Feb 27, 2009 05:20am | #52

    That was a question on the test I gave the students today.  Everybody passed!

    Have a good day

    Cliffy

    1. User avater
      Matt | Feb 27, 2009 02:59pm | #53

      What kind of students are these?  Kids? fellow carpenters?  What?

      I find it not uncommon for "lay" people to not know how to read a tape measure, much less, know what the black diamonds are.

      1. cliffy | Feb 27, 2009 09:17pm | #55

        The students are carpenter apprentices.  In Ontario carpenter apprentices work thousands of hours and go to college for 8 weeks three times, once each for basic, intermediate and advanced.  Yestersday was the last day for a basic intake and now they go back to there job for a year or so.  When they are finished their school and hours they can write the provincial exam to become certified general carpenters.

        Have a good day

        Cliffy

      2. JTC1 | Feb 28, 2009 12:27am | #56

        >>not uncommon for "lay" people to not know how to read a tape measure<<

        Aw come on, everybody can read a tape measure!

        I used to volunteer quite a bit for the local H4H.  The local banks and credit card companies were a frequent source of "eager volunteers" (that is code for - well meaning souls who do not know anything about construction).

        I have gotten many facinating replies to the question - how long is that space / board / opening?

        My favorite replies went something like - "142 plus 1 big line plus 3 little tiny lines".

        Any fool should understand this means 142-11/16" or, if you prefer, 11'10-11/16".

        So everybody can read a tape measure - you are just having trouble interpreting what they read. =)

        H4H can supply this learning opportunity at no charge!

        JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.

  13. wood4rd | Feb 27, 2009 03:55pm | #54

    Thats for when the inspector says 16"o.c. and the boss says 24" o.c.

    Then neither one is happy.

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