Does anyone have an opinion or knowledge on what is best when running a gas line, black pipe or copper? I”m asked to run a Nat. Gas line from about 35 feet away to supply gas to a cooktop stove. I”m assuming the more professional and proper way is to run black pipe, but copper has the advantage of unrolling from the coil and no joints.
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Replies
I believe in my area, copper is no longer permitted for gas lines. You don't have to swap it out, but, cannot reuse it or install it new. I'd go black pipe as you can, then, consider using an approved flex line. Keep in mind that flex lines may be limited in length. There is a relatively new flex pipe that uses a yellow cover and special fittings that will run longer than flex connector pipes.
Bob.
Up here in New England, you need a license to touch a gas line now.
The new flex stainless seems to be popular but the fittings must be hard to get right, because three times now, I have had to tighten them to stop leaks a week after the professional, licensed installation was done.
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Black is the industry standard.
Copper was not aloud in most places, but now is, & according to some is not aloud in their areas any more.
CSST is the new kid on the block, expensive pipe & fittings, but quick installation.
You're supposed to take a class by a manufactures rep to be able to buy CSST & the fittings.
My house has black & a short run of CSST to my cooktop ( installed 25yrs after house was built).
I fear no man & only one GOD. Me
Call a gas fitter. Things that explode are best left to the professionals.
Why do you assume I am not a professional? I've installed lots of BP, just wanted to get a feel for where copper stood in the mix.
Incidentally, I deal almost every day with things that explode far worse than Nat. Gas. If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
"Why do you assume I am not a professional?"because you had to ask a pretty basic question????
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Why would I assume you are not a professional????
Statements like this:
"I"m assuming the more professional and proper way is to run black pipe, but copper has the advantage of unrolling from the coil and no joints."
Any more questions?
Edited 4/23/2007 7:34 pm ET by sledgehammer
Edited 4/23/2007 7:35 pm ET by sledgehammer
Basically I'm confirming my belief that I am doing it the best way.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Cool with me. I'm always happy when professionals have to confirm the beat way of doing something.... Hope you never need brain surgery and the professional you trust needs message board confirmation.Bawahahahahahh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No, when the brain surgeon needs confirmation he should stick to the surgeon's lounge and to conferences and forums where non-surgeons are not allowed.Rebeccah
Hope you never need brain surgery and the professional you trust needs message board confirmation.
Sledge, seems like you have some kind of attitude problem that you feel you need to consider yourself better than anyone else. I guess you've never had to ask advice for anything in your life, then. I'm installing a GAS LINE, not doing brain surgery. Moreover, I've not installed it yet as I've pulled a permit and I spec'd out a black pipe line. After I spec'd it, I got a desire to make sure I'm up with the times on gas piping installation type, method and variety. It's called increasing ones education, which is how this forum and any forum on BT is postulated to those who participate.
If you feel that I"m not professional enough for you to then I guess it really doesn't matter, because you're not my customer. But for some reason you're too self righteous to just ignore the post I made and have the need to persist in esteeming yourself as someone better than others. I happen to make my living doing a ton of this and a ton of that. One day I'll be putting in sewer lines, another day changing a faucet, another day installing an ice maker, another day installing a 200A service and another day building a full fledged addition. I personally don't like specializing in anything but it would seem to you I"m less than a professinal because I don't. It's my busines, and I do pretty good at it, it's not yours, so I'll run mine the way I want, you run yours. If that's a problem for you then maybe I should suggest you not bothering participating on BT at all as you're not of the mold of person BT is looking for to participate. I've installed plenty of gas lines, I know my inspectors very well in the townships, I know how to run pipe, how to check for leaks, do water column tests, select proper gas orifices, heck I even install HVAC units except for the part requiring certification for the refridgerant, that my bud does for me. I'm the only income in my family, I work hard for my money. I don't know everything, I'm still refining my estimating skills, too, are you? I'm not in this business to pass it off as a know it all, and I'll always seek to expand my education so that I become an even better professional and better than guys like you who go around insulting someones professionalism when you don't even know who they are. If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Hmmm. If we could stop hollering at each other and get back to the merits of different type of gas pipe, I might learn something here.
You guys feel like taking a big deep one each, exhaling slowly, and starting over? I wouldn't mind knowing what CSST stands for, or whether the flexible, yellow-jacketed copper the propane company installed here 12 years ago is gonna go boom someday while I'm in the middle of roasting my turkey....
Dinosaur
DON'T MISS THE FEST!
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I could care less about the different types of gas lines and there suitability.
I do care that the guy who installs it knows and has the proper insurance.
I could care less about the different types of gas lines and there suitability.
Your privilege, of course. But if that's the case, why did you enter this discussion? Seems like a waste of your valuable time, somehow.
You might also consider that others--me included--like knowing such things for a variety of valid reasons. That's one of the reasons we come here.
I do care that the guy who installs it knows and has the proper insurance
The problem with that attitude is that sometimes 'the guy who installs it' doesn't know--licensed or not--and you have no way of telling that if you don't know either.
The best insurance is knowledge. Anything else is just gambling.
Dinosaur
DON'T MISS THE FEST!
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I'm sorry, but trying to beat a man at his trade is a waste of time. Willie doesn't know the trade and you are soaking up the info....
Oh make it stop.................
Bawahahahahahahah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Edited 4/23/2007 10:17 pm ET by sledgehammer
The man asked a legitimate question. You then jumped all over him with an attitude. You imply you know all the answers but aren't gonna share them with anyone you deem unworthy of this sacred knowledge. And at the same time you say you don't care about the differences between BI and copper or 'there' applications.
Now you want me to make it stop?
No problem.
Dinosaur
DON'T MISS THE FEST!
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Mr. Dinosaur.The gas (LP) company here still uses roll copper, and recommends it to attach the tank to the house. Just got a new one and had this converstion a couple months ago. I have seen other companies use orange plastic in years past, but haven't seen it lately.My plumber put black pipe inside the house... evidently it is code here for natural, and he wanted to use it instead of copper.? Probably able to gouge me for more labor that way.. :)Rural Southern IL for the location question that is bound to come up.A medium to large guy named Alan, not an ambiguous female....
NOT that there is anything wrong with that.
Your copper is ok. Dirty gas can be a problem, but here in the GWN, our gas is "sweet".
Never heard of propane being a problem with copper.
Installing CSST is like running bx cable. Goes places black iron has problems, BUT, it has to be grounded properly.
Problem with the net is that somebody that may be a pro in one part of the world, would be considered a rank amateur elsewhere.
Here in Saskatchewan, with my commercial gas ticket, I can work on any gas appliance, any btu, known to man. Anywhere else in Canada, I'm an amateur.
But I would expect any gasfitter to know about when and where, and the pros and cons, of the different pipes and tubing allowed in their jurisdiction.
What is wrong with plastic? There are plastics that won't corrode, are flexible, inexpensive and easy to handle. My propane powered truck had hoses that outlasted the engine. Is any plastic approved?
Eric
Around here, plastic lines are for underground use, with fused metal risers.
Other materials are aluminum(pilot lines), stainless steel, black iron, galvanised, copper, CSST, brass, certified rubber.
What kind of plastic? And what are fused metal risers? Is this what I should put under the slab from the propane tank?
Thanks, Eric
Well, I carry $5M insurance, way more than most guys who only carry $1M or $2M.
All I was trying to say is that I know there are other methods that are now approved for running gas lines. I'd certainly appreciate having FEWER joints to leak test and thread and dope. I stay up on a lot of new stuff and new methodologies, but in this case I just thought I'd ask. I heard someone complain months ago that copper will corrode, here where I live lots of lines are copper. When you hear "copper will corrode" one should be humble enough to ask the pros/cons to validate it. If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
I carry 7M in insurance. Big deal. If I blow up a house doing gas or kill a customer touching electric, guess what... Neither are covered.
What's your point?
I carry 7M in insurance. Big deal. If I blow up a house doing gas or kill a customer touching electric, guess what... Neither are covered.
In your post to Dinosaur you referred to the fact that you care if the guy is insured or not. So if neither are covered and if it's BIG DEAL then why would you care more about him being insured and less about the product he is using or the methodology? If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
I believe it's Corrugated Stainless Steel Tubing, and judging by your description (flexible pipe with a yellow jacket), it sounds like you might have it.http://tinyurl.com/yse5j9You might also check out this site, as it seems like there may be problems with some brands. Or it could all be a lot of yapping about nothing. http://www.pddocs.com/csst/Don't want you going boom boom before the fest :)
Edited 4/23/2007 9:19 pm ET by FatRoman
Thanks, Steve, that's an interesting research site.
The stuff I've got here is definitely not CSST; it's copper but is covered with a yellow plastic jacketing. The installation is a single run with no joints from the tank regulator to the stove end of the run, where there is the cutoff valve. From there to the stove is a SS flex pipe--unjacketed--which came with the stove.
I'm on LP gas, not natural. What I'm interested in finding out is whether there are any known corrosion issues with LP gas running in copper. I know there is a sulfur-based odorific added to the gas, but I don't know if that's a problem.
The installation is about 12 years old.
Dinosaur
DON'T MISS THE FEST!
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I am a gas fitter and there are lots of guys that are licenced and really don't know what they are doing. Just like any trade.
Apparently some gas wells were producing something that I understand made a gray sludge in copper lines. Obviously not all wells did it but I guess all wells are connected to big pipe lines and the problem spread though I never ever saw anything. A few years ago up here in Canada they made us stop using refrigeration copper tubing which was cheap and we used it for A/c units and gas piping so we only carried one type of tubing though different sizes. They came out with another grade of copper tubing that looked just like the other stuff in everyway except the printing on the tubing stated the grade. It was a real pain to carry both types in our vans and we were always getting them mixed up though I never heard of any problems. A few months ago I was talking to a supplier about "gas tubing" and he said they don't sell it anymore and we go back to using refrigeration tubing.
Here on the west coast people for some reason do not want to see any gas piping/tubing and in most cases the only way to hide it in the walls is to use tubing whereas out east we used mainly black pipe and we tried to keep the piping out of view. When we couldn't hide it people excepted the fact the pipe in the garage or wherever was a gas pipe. It was never an issue having it exposed.
roger
Thanks, guys. I think we're back on track, now.
What sort of connections are permitted in copper tubing for gas? And what's the test pressure and minimum time without pressure drop?
Dinosaur
DON'T MISS THE FEST!
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
In Brief:Flared fittings and/or silver solder connections. Pressure test in most houses is (Canada) 15 pounds for 15 minutes minimum with no pressure drop.
Rarely do guys silver solder lines but you can and I always had the equipment for doing refrigeration so I always did it much to the amazement of other guys.
roger
Yours really sounds like CSST from thje description it is just like all of that which has been installed on my jobs here in the last 6-8 years.
Is there any lableing on the yellow jacket?I have one line of 3/8" soft copper in my house carrying propane. It was a legal install back when I did it about '97, then a couple years later the industry tightened up around here. So I expect to replace it someday, before the cellar is all finished out.I had always assumed that the reasoning behind not using copper is that it is too easy to damage. Didn't realize there were corrosion issues with gas.
With water, the mineral here means some copper lines start pinholing after 10-12 years, so the plumbers have been glad to change over to PEX
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yours really sounds like CSST from thje description
No, this stuff is really copper. I can see the metal under the jacket at the end where it was trimmed back to make the connection. Now I'm wondering if the jacket is just for identification, or if it has some 'structural' significance....
I'm doing a plumbing job right now, turning a coat closet into a water closet, LOL. I'm gonna ask my supplier his opinion on copper for LP gas when I stop in to pick up the throne tomorrow. He's the only plumbing contractor in the area licensed for gas. (The guy who did my install was the local propane supplier with a 'grandfathered' license.)
Dinosaur
DON'T MISS THE FEST!
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
No problem T.H.I think Piffin mentioned it already, but you might check out PEX if you are concerned about corrosion issues. I know Ferguson carries Gas PEX. Only because they thought that's what I was looking for when I was in to order Wirsbo to replumb my house. Here's another link I found that might be useful. Scroll to the bottom where they are talking about Installation and Maintenance. Don't know if that addresses your specific concerns, but I thought I'd add it to the mix.http://www.plasticpipe.org/applications/productinfo03_3_1.php
Are you sure about PEX for gas?That link is for PE piping, but PEX..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Well, I'm not sure about anything :) And I'm not a plumber.But, when I went into Ferguson for Wirsbo, they gave me the 'we only sell PEX to licensed plumbers' line. Which was fine, as I expected to hear that. But then he came back out and said that restriction only applied to PEX gas tubing. This guy is the GM of the store, so I'm hoping he knows something about his product line.A trip around google for PEX gas pipe reveals that there are at least some places stocking fittings and there's this http://www.gaspex.com.au/So I'm assuming that it's out there somewhere. But if someone has better info, please jump in and correct me.
The 2002 IRC calls out 4 classes of materials for gas piping.Steel of at least "standard weight" (sch 40). And it list 3 ASTM standards. Hard to tell what they are, but one is black steel. The other two "wrought seams" and "seamless high tempature".Metallic tubing - seamless steel, aluminium, and COPPER if the gas is not corrosive to the material.Then goes on and for copper specifies types K and L. Then says that it should not be used if th egas contains form tham 0.3 grains of hydrogen sulfide per 100 scf of gas. (0.7 milligrams/100 liters).CSST (corregated stainless steel tubing)Plastic ONLY FOR UNDERGROUND USE. ASTM D2513. And discusses the metal risers. And for LP use it calls out to use per NFPA 58.That is the only part that is different between LP and natural gass piping..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
First you have to find out whether the pipe sizing that you already have in your house is big enough to accomodate the extra BTU's the cooktop stove will use. Out here the gas installers only supply the bare minimum for gas sizing so the the system is not capable of having any additional load. I don't know what you mean by "gas cooktop stove". A gas stove (top burners and oven) can easily use 80-90,000 BTU's whereas a gas cooktop start at about 50,000BTU's.
35 feet can make a huge difference in figuring the pipe sizing. It might be easier to run a second line starting at the meter rather than upgrading the single existing line. A gas fitter will know these things, or should.
roger
35 feet can make a huge difference in figuring the pipe sizing. It might be easier to run a second line starting at the meter rather than upgrading the single existing line. A gas fitter will know these things, or should.
Actually I calculated the existing line can more than handle the additional load and when it comes to these things I usually have them double checked to be sure which in this case I did since I wanted to make sure the piping already there had enough capacity. Currently it only supplies the furnace and WH. But you're right, improper sizing won't do anything or anyone much good. If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
It depends on the location. In Texas copper is not allowed as the sulfer content in the gas eats the copper.
I've removed copper supplies that were corroded inside and rather scarry when you think about it.
However, IIRC, back in '93 or so we could use copper in the Baltimore area.
That was several years ago so it's best to check with the locals and see what is allowed.
IMO, copper is fine outdoors, use black pipe in.
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
no copper by mandate any more up here....CSST, flex or black depending on application / location...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Thanks, I'm planning to use pex for water and radiant lines. Gas too now?
The help is appreciated, Eric
Yeah, I figured that was coming. Certain types of soil are very hard on copper lines.
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
I agree with you WillieWonka. There is a spirit of condescension on this forum sometimes. I don't know a lot about everything. I'm not that smart.
But when you do know something just share it. Help out. I figure you're here to learn something or help someone else learn.
Romans 15:1,2 We who are strong ought to bear up with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves. 2 Each of us should please his neighbor for his good, to build him up.
Thank you. And thank you also in that you're a fellow Christian.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME