So I have this client who has called us 3 or 4 times for quotes. Each time we have given him one he calls and want to play lets make a deal. If we do this too how much would it be? If we do both together how much would it be? If we take this out, how much would it be?
Then he finds someone cheaper and hires them. Total waste of time in my mind. So he calls a couple of months ago and says his wife is mad about the home made shower they have and he has to get it fixed. His brother ( I taught school with him) told him when it comes to bathrooms we are the only people to call. We are slow so I give it a shot.
Just like clock work he calls and wants to cheapen it down. I offer to use the left over material from couple of jobs and re-use his faucet to lower the price. He wants it lower and I refuse. He say ok, lets do it. I go to sign the contract and he wants to add stuff for free.
I refuse and draw the line. I tell him we are reliable, we back our work, you can trust us in your home, and we are clean. We are not the cheapest but those attributes are worth every penny of the difference in price and if he is not comfortable with that then we need to call it a day and part friends. He signs.
He calls the day before the job and says his check is delayed, can the first payment be delayed till the end. I say ok because we are slow. We do the work, it goes well, we do a few things for free as we always do (installed a non existant trap for the shower, little extra trim work to make it look good etc.) . I go pick up the check and they are thrilled and pay.
While there he wants a few small jobs quoted. I call him the next day and let him know the numbers. Again, he calls the next day and starts. “If we do the dishwasher install and the seperate circuit for the kitchen at the same time, since you are already in the breaker box, what would that save me?”
I don’t know, maybe the end of the week and tired, gloomy day, the fact that I hate being pushed, but I say……”Look, I told you before about the fact that we are not the cheapest, we are reliable, we back our work and you can trust us, I waited for the first payment which as I told you I don’t do, we did a few little extras for free and I worked to get the price down on your shower. I am not discounting $800 worth of work. I do this for a living and not for my health. I am in business to make a profit on each and every job including yours, so there is no getting it done for less, the price is the price”. In a rather abrupt tone I should add.
Anyway he started backing up, saying not to get excited etc. Said they didn’t have then money now, when could I do it, I said a month he said he would call me. Probably won’t hear from him again. Could have used the work, small or not. I am relieved at the thought of not having to debate each issue with him.
So, what say yea old breaktimers. Did I blow it? I keep having second thoughts that maybe I should have kept myself in check with the economy being what it is. But I hate being pushed. DanT
Replies
My guess is if he was offended it will be forgotten in a matter of a day or two.
I have a relative who tries to negotiate everything.
He will pay your price, but for his own peace of mind, he has to at least take a shot at whittling down the price.
If it works he smiles and moves forward.
If he's not successful, he still hires you and says to himself "at least I tried"
He doesn't care what people think about him
And the other thing is - he's worth a lot of money and he's made money by treating people this way.
I hear you, Dan. My blood was starting to boil just reading your account.
I definitely don't enjoy negotiating, with my subs or suppliers, or with customers - that's when I get emotional instead of staying matter of fact and cool.
I am at the tail end of my business career so I try my best to deal with people who share core values with me, who respect me and my time, who are happy to hire me more as a working partner than an adversary. I have come to the conclusion that (my) life is just too short to white knuckle it through day to day interactions with people who see things differently on a fundamental level. They would be better served dealing with someone else for the same services I offer, and so would I.
But. I definitely think for anyone trying to build a business learning to negotiate without rancor is one of the basic skills that can make all the difference between a satisfying career and gritting your teeth and "just getting through this part of it".
I feel for you man. I find myself getting less and less tolerant of that bullcrap, the older I get. You'd think it would be the opposite, wouldn't you? That I'd learn to accept it and shrug it off? But I don't seem to be able to, and frankly, I've lost interest in trying.
Oil and water just don't mix.
I'll eat your peaches, mam. I LOVE peaches!
Jim, the good thing about you is that you understand your limits. By acknowledging them, you have a chance at creating a working strategy to deal with them.I'm no expert negotiator but I think at some point in Dan T's negotiations I probably would have started using the laugh technique. At every request for a reduction, I'd laugh it off, congratulate him for trying, then just say no and continue on with whatever stage in the presentation I was at. When I finished the job and he called for the second job, I might have added a laugh in the conversation and said something like this: "I'm going to quote you the job at around $800, but I'm going to add another $100. When we get into the phase where you try to beat me up and make me work for poverty wages, I'm going to discount you that $100..."Basically, put the topic on the table in a humorous manner. Laugh it off and make a new friend. They know how they are and they don't mind you calling them out on it. Humor works in a wide variety of ways. For instance, I was having trouble collecting 2k from a builder. After numerous excuses I told him to set three more plates at his dinner table tonite. He asked why. I told him that our family was broke and we were going to have to start eating at his house every day. I got the check. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Dickering is one thing, tightazz is another.
Years back when my mum was alive she would wait on her greenhouse customers that were buying plants.
One lady came up to the table with a six pack planting clearly marked $2.25.
The friggin' woman wanted to know if my mum would take $2.00 for it. Roar! The climax of the story is the woman was the wife of a local well-to-do doctor.
I only wish I had been the one manning the table at the time as the expression on her face when I told her the price was now $3.00 would have been worth a photo.
Peach full,easy feelin'.
I went to a garage sale and waited in line to pay for my item.The woman in front of me was an oriental lady.She was buying a jigsaw puzzle for 25 cents.When she got to the front of the line she said in broken english "I pay you 10 cents"The women at the cashier station kind of rolled her eyes and said "ok"It was kind of awkward.
Best to have fun in situations like that.
After she bought it you should have offered her 15cents for it just to see what she would do.
Peach full,easy feelin'.
The woman in front of me was an oriental lady
How could you tell she was oriental?
Doug
I was standing behind her for several minutes while waiting in line to pay for my item.
I would say that that makes her ORIENTAL then???
sheeesh
I guess I don't understand what you're saying.I could see her and I could hear her voice.
Now I'm wondering if I sounded racist. If so, I didn't mean to be.
I got an old buddy that would use the term, "Ornamental."
Here's a tip, all slopes are not oriental!
Why such a reply. It isn't hard to distinguish an oriental? It's not being racist.Why the attack?Pete
Why the attack?
What attack Pete? I just wondered how one could tell an oriental from say an Asian or any of the other sects of the world where people have a distinguishing physical feature, that's all.
It isn't hard to distinguish an oriental?
It isn't? tell me, how do you distinguish the diff between say a oriental and an Asian? I'm here to learn.
You did know that there is a diff, right?
Oh, BTW, I never used the term "racism/racist" anywhere
Doug
Edited 3/2/2008 9:48 am ET by DougU
What is the difference between an Oriental and an Asian?
I was under the impression that nowadays "oriental" refers to things like carpets. The people in "The Orient" (aka Asia, or East Asia) are called Asian.
And I'm pretty sure calling anyone "Slope" isn't PC....
And I'm pretty sure calling anyone "Slope" isn't PC....
Mike, your right, it wasnt PC but then I'm not a PC sorta guy either. That was why I used the term, trying to make a point I guess.
I've already taken away from the thread so I responded to Mrfixit via e-mail to avoid anymore bs.
Whats the diff between an Englishman and a Frenchman? Both white right?
I've hijacked this thread enough, sorry DanT, not my intent for what I thought was a pretty good topic. For what its worth I still think you did the right thing!
Doug
Enough already.
If slopes isn't racist.....alright then.Please do not reply as I won't go further discussing anything with you.
You no longer exist in my Breaktime.
Pete
Gee Doug, looks like you blew it again.
snorK*
Peach full,easy feelin'.
Story of my life!
I didnt come here to win friends and influence people
Here in Plano, TX, we have a large population of orientals and Indians.They negotiate everything. I sell friges at Sears and no matter the price, they negotiate. It gets to the point where I have had to practically get in their faces and say, "this is the price, period, no negotiating". They'll just smile and say, "ok". They did their thing.It's uncomfortable, but from my understanding, this is their culture.I don't know how anyone would work up a contract for a remodel with these folks...Pete
I find myself getting less and less tolerant of that bullcrap, the older I get. You'd think it would be the opposite, wouldn't you?
You know Jim... even though I am MUCH younger than you <G>, I find the same thing.... I am less tolerant of everything as I get older. I think it is simply the result of being the nice guy for so many years that the longer that goes on the less you are inclined to keep it up in the face of responding rudeness or what-have-you.
Believe it or not, I used to be an incredible pushover. Everybody walked over me on a regular basis and I wanted nothing more than to keep them happy while letting them do that. It grows old.
From what I know of you I'd guess that you too are very easy to deal with and even a bit of a pushover yourself... I'm sure your ability or desire to have to deal with that stuff is just wearing thin.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Well, I have given this subject a lot of thought recently, Pete. I have a lot of thoughts but I'll leave it at this -
I only have a few years left to build. If I stop working for other people today, I MIGHT have enough time to build the way I want on the properties Kathy and I own.
I am willing to work with other people on their projects instead of my own as long as certain conditions are met - the right people, interesting work, the right timing, the right money - but if any one of those elements is missing, the other three have to be overwhelming or it's just not worth it to me to defer my own dreams.
All the years dealing with people has made it easier to read the signs (good AND bad) regarding my compatibility with others. Without that compatibility, I just don't see the point.
Time is short. I try to be careful how I spend it.I'll eat your peaches, mam. I LOVE peaches!
Time is short. I try to be careful how I spend it.
Jeeeeze Jim even though I agree with ya I wish you'd stop talking like that.
Doug, same age as you!
I'm guessing that Jim is about 36... given his good looks and vigor. He has plenty of time left.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Yea but his profile says 52! And that's where I'm at but I don't posses his good looks and charming personality!
I do have a lot of vigor though
Doug
It's the truth, brotherman. It's later than either of us thinks.I'll eat your peaches, mam. I LOVE peaches!
Jim, spend less time contemplating your mortality, it will drive you to an early grave.
On a more serious note....
After I was shot and came so close to death, I was obsessed with my own mortality and mortality in general. It is a hard thing to shake and I stressed over it for years. To the point of causing me great anxiety. I can finally say that it is not so strong a force in my mind now but it does sneak up on me occassionally. I guess I finally had to accept that it is inevitable and that by living my life the best I can and worrying less and realizing that most problems are rather insignificant, I can cope much better with it.
<!----><!----><!---->
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
word.I'll eat your peaches, mam. I LOVE peaches!
one of the best ides i picked up on this site is to ask the potential customer what do they want to take out of the job seeing as how they want to lower the price
if the want a quote on paper for insurance purposes its $100 plus tax, all refunded if i get the entire job
i just got a customer to pay her own lawyer to put a lein on her own house seeing as she would have to pay the lein in the end and lawyers are a bunch of bastards who would sue their own mother and charge like hell so she saved money
if your prices are reasonable in the first place they have to expect to get less if they want to pay less its a no brainer
as i tell some " you arent santa claus and im not the salvation army" ;)
i just got a customer to pay her own lawyer to put a lein on her own house
Now that's impressive! Now, if you could only get her to sue herself in order to perfect the lien. Sounds like she just got way over her own head, and knows it.
Bob
she told me when the job started thaat she had the material money , well she sort of did but a lot of it went to personal emergencys etc
she also said she would have the labour money in 3 to 4 weeks , no did happen
shes split from her husband and i dont trust him either
the house is going up for sale as soon as im done
the market here in eastern ontario is hot with houses usually selling in 3 weeks for very close to the asking price which has doubled in about 8 years , real wierd ;.)
Add up all of the hours you've spent on the 6 quotes that you have done for him so far.
Now add that to the labor hours you spent working on the one job he gave you.
How much did you really make an hour ?
Are you still upset with yourself for standing your ground ?
My brother in law is the king of all negotiators.
I am slowly coming to realize that they are just different than we are. And that's ok.
You have to find a way of dealing with these people that doesn't make you nuts.
Two options are either standing your ground like you did, or just raising your price on the front end and then just give it back when he starts his usual routine.
they make me crazy too.
when i have the psychology of this perfected, i'll let you know.........
carpenter in transition
"Two options are either standing your ground like you did, or just raising your price on the front end and then just give it back when he starts his usual routine."I agree but in Dan's case, I would have told him I was going to do it up front. I've told builders that their price was 12k and I was adding 2k for the time he was going to stand on the deck jawboning with me or the crew. That got the message to him. I remember one particular client that insisted on trying to save pennies everywhere. One time he wanted me to build a simple addition without plans. I argued with him for awhile and finally said okay but there was going to be some serious language in the contract that guaranteed that the job would be a wreck and that it would need serious repairs, etc. He said fine....I did the carpentry....he was the GC....I was right. Everytime he called me to fix things on cost plus I got to say "I told you...." Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
<<<<<I remember one particular client that insisted on trying to save pennies everywhere. One time he wanted me to build a simple addition without plans. I argued with him for awhile and finally said okay but there was going to be some serious language in the contract that guaranteed that the job would be a wreck and that it would need serious repairs, etc. He said fine....I did the carpentry....he was the GC....I was right. Everytime he called me to fix things on cost plus I got to say "I told you....">>>>
hha, hah, hah....
laughter is the best medicineMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Jim
Although I agree with what Haz and several others have said I have used your idea about adding on the $100 for the negotiation phase.
I have a good friend that uses me for most of his projects. He has to negotiate, no way around it. I will take my proposal to him, actually I take two of them, ie; Proposal #1 will be for $3000 to build some mahogany screens for his porch, Proposal #2 will be the same scope of work but price will be $2500 - what I actually need to do the job.
I will give him the first one and then he starts in like every other time, "oh Doug, I cant pay that much, will you do it for $2000" I dicker with him and after 10-20 minutes of this nonsense we end up at the $2500 that I need and I pull out proposal #2 and hand it to him, we both laugh if off, but if I go there tomorrow to give him a price we will do the same song and dance - he HAS to do this, its in his blood, probably does it at the grocery store! But I like him and for him I will do it, nobody else gets that out of me. I refuse to play with my numbers.
BTW, Dan, I don't think you did anything wrong, sure we can all sit here and tell you that you need to learn to control yourself, its just business, but that's because were sitting here as an outsider and we can be pretty calm/nuetral when its not us!
Doug
Add up all of the hours you've spent on the 6 quotes that you have done for him so far.
Bingo!
As soon as a potential client begins to irritate me with repetative requests to juggle numbers, and bring it (the price) down.....I bring this to his/her attention.
"Mr. Smith....I have already spent X amount of time on X number of estimates for you, as well as meeting with you X number of times, and speaking on the phone X times."
o job....no matter how slow you are....is worth that kind of aggrevation.
Beware the bikini clad female.
She may be interpreted as offensive.
"Mr. Smith"
ya no, i wish you'd change your hypotheticals a littleMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Dan, I have no doubt that you are one of the world's most reasonable men. There is virtually zero chance you blew it. Some people just want to dicker, and it gets incredibly tiresome.
Man you're heading for an early grave, if you work for this guy on his terms.
I've done lots of small add-ons for free, enough to make a full day's work sometimes on larger jobs but not because the customer was trying to manipulate me.
And I've walked away from people and jobs like you've described when business was dead, just because I knew the aggravation to me would show up in my relationships with family and friends.
Honestly, IMO your first error was even talking about hypothetical changes off the clock. If your first quote is free, that's fine, but each succeeding quote should be written up and paid for, upon delivery.
Edited 3/1/2008 4:02 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Dan, Yes someone blew it -- but definately not you.
Let him grovel and apologize before thinking of working for him again.
Walter
Dan--- there is no way you blew it
frenchy and Blue-- LIKE to negotiate-- they are probably good at it-----and there is no wonder that they want to skew the situation in favor of something they are good at-like dickering
in fact-they like negotiating so MUCH-that they will try to convince you--that a "NO negotiating policy"--is,in fact a negotiation.
but life is to short----if some one wants to dicker---let them dicker with a contractor that has the same idea of a good time
As for you---just decline--and move on---you will be happier in the long run----and you won't waste NEARLY as much time
Add up all the time you have spent dealing with this knucklehead over the years with countlkess estimates---and the best you have gotten was $800 in billings out of him
really-wouldn't you have been money ahead to simply have given HIM a check for $300 YEARS ago and never dealt with him further-----you would be a minimum of $500 ahead----and could have invested the additional time in PAYING work
Best wishes,
Stephen
Stephen, you are mischaracterizing the process. I'm saying that the process can be shortcircuited by using humor. The dickering that I'm talking about is done in five minutes, not five hours. I've encountered builders that wanted to dicker down to such low levels that I've cut the conversation short in 30 seconds. On occassion, I've told them that I would be better off cutting them a check for $2500 rather than to take their job at the price they want to pay. I explain that I'm going to lose $2500 doing the job and it would be better if I just payed them not to do the job, rather than to tie myself up for three weeks while losing the money. As I've mentioned before, I also have snatched my business card back off their desk or out of their hands as I leave. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
blue..... i've used this very one..
<<<<<
I've encountered builders that wanted to dicker down to such low levels that I've cut the conversation short in 30 seconds. On occassion, I've told them that I would be better off cutting them a check for $2500 rather than to take their job at the price they want to pay. I explain that I'm going to lose $2500 doing the job and it would be better if I just payed them not to do the job, rather than to tie myself up for three weeks while losing the money. >>>>
i've told potential customers that i'd rather write them a check for $10,000 than take the job at that price.. it would be my contribution to their estate
and i'd still have 8 months of my life..
and it would be less than the money i'd lose doing their job...
luckily ..... they didn't ask for the checkMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
As I've mentioned before, I also have snatched my business card back off their desk or out of their hands as I leave.
beautiful...
permission to steal this move and use repeatedly?...
regards
Again thanks for the support in my views/methods. I feel a lot better about it all after reading this but do dislike the fact that I lost my temper a bit. But hey, it beats the time in my twenties I was chatting with the ex and stood and beat the wall mount phone with the reciever till there was nothing left on the wall. This lesson didn't even cost a telephone! DanT
"but do dislike the fact that I lost my temper a bit. "
a conversation I've had with myself in the past ...
and probably over the phone with U ... goes something like ...
"I know my "personailty" cost me that job!"
meaning .... if I embraced the suck and didn't stick to guns ....
if I had a greater ability to tuck my tail between my legs and shut the F up ...
I maybe / coulda / shoulda worked what ever was wrong out ...
and stayed there and quietly finished said work and collected said final check.
or start check, as I have walked off a job in the first 3 minutes too.
So ... fully realizing "my personality" could have been seen at fault on those occasions ....
I also have to look at the flip side of the card.
and that is ... my somewhat forceful ... never back down ... never be taken advantage of .... personality ... has to this point in life "made" me way more money that it's cost me.
so ... being me ... is good.
so far.
this line of work sucks ... absolutely terrible business to be in. People are either idiots or they're trying to steal from ya .... so losing the temper every now and then ...
just keeps the rest of the world in line.
for a day or so.
then ... they're back at it!
I've displayed my temper once or twice and collected final checks in full amounts ... only to find out later that I was one of the few subs paid. Can't let go of that part of the charm ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
naw blue-- I don't think I am mis-characterizing the process
what i AM doing--is remembering several PREVIOUS conversations that you, frenchy and I have had on the same topic. this is just one of those topics that we dis-agree onBTW-- i think you mentioned a book a few days ago"who moved my cheese?"Read it yesterday- LOVED it.---at first glance( and it doesn't take much more than a glance to actually read it)-- the book seems insultingly simplistic
but a few minutes thought-----and "all is revealed"--- i have actually been having fun the last day or so mentally classifying many of the people i know, according to the characters in the book.
what's really funny---is that when i walked into the library to find the book--I overheard a conversation between 2 security gaurds Talking about Obama and "change" and how change was what got us into this mess so how could they vote for Obama?--------------- an hour later I had read the book and BINGO--realized the security gaurd was"hem"
still thinking whee I fit into the picture--and I figure that like most people I share characteristices with several of the characters.
thanks for the book idea
i am gonna try to nudge my youngest son into reading it.
stephen
i liked " Who Moved My Cheese " also
finished listening to " First Break All the Rules"......... i was underwhelmed
then , yesterday i was rumaging in my book closet for something to read... and there was a brand new edition of "First Break All the Rules"... seems i read it about two years ago ( at someone's suggestion ... wonder who ???? ) and i remember i was underwhelmed at that time too
it just seemed a little too simplistic to me.... i gained no great insights
The Goal, "Cheese", "How to Win Friends", "Guerilla Marketing", Proof, and Walt Stoeppleworth... they were much more influential to me
sorry, Dan... for the digressionMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You probably could've written it, that's why. Seems like you manage that way anyway?.
yeah, i wish..... what is this concept you speak of ...." manage "Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
yeah, i wish..... what is this concept you speak of ...." manage "
It's been a while since I read the book, but isn't that kind of the main point...hire good people, give them what they need to work with, and get out of the way?
Mike... i was being a little facetious...
<<<
yeah, i wish..... what is this concept you speak of ...." manage "
It's been a while since I read the book, but isn't that kind of the main point...hire good people, give them what they need to work with, and get out of the way?>>>
but i see that you've gotten to my core beliefs
i guess i was just unimpressed with the book, not the message
i think what i TRY to do is find out what makes them tick, what ....
STOP !
i was thinking about "First" again... so i went back upstairs and dug it out of the closet
hmmmm. this is a useful book... the book on tape was useful too.... for putting me to sleep, it was read by Marcus Buckingham... with an ?? english ??? accent
anyways the book has some good things that i will take out and put in our company plan 3-ring binder.....
the 12 questions
the Art of Interviewing for talent
Performance Management
Keys of your Own
& Master keys
ok... now how do we break this to Stephen ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
It's amazing how you can read a book once and think, blah....
Then a year or three later read it again, and think...eureka!
One of these days Stephen will read it again and get something out of it. That's my guess.
British accents can drive me crazy. I would have fallen asleep just to stop the noise. (French accents and Asian/Oriental accents aren't so bad though ;-)
Mike, your operation seems to be managed quite well according to the parameters that are laid out in the book. Thats a credit to you, your experiences and your overall business operation. I'm sure you would have been one of the successful mangers that they would have wanted to interview. I too think that some of the best things about the book are the fundamental daily questions that need to be answered. I can remember back in my own business where I failed to say yes to all those critical questions. They are very simple and basic needs but many small firms fail to deal with them on a regular basis. This book provides a very simple basic blueprint for success and is useful for anyone managing that struggles with any part of their management system or style. I'm halfway through the E Myth revisited. I thought I had already read it but now I don't think I did. I figured out a lot more about myself and can clearly see where I fit into the present structure of our current business. I'm clearly past the technician, craftsman and master phase. I have no interest in the management either. That only leaves one job.... Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"It's been a while since I read the book, but isn't that kind of the main point...hire good people, give them what they need to work with, and get out of the way?"That's almost the main point. If you clarify by saying "hire good people for the job that fits their talents"....then I agree. Think of how that might apply to a NBA team. Should a coach hire the top 15 point guards, simply because they all can drive to the hoop better than anyone else in the league now? Would they be better if they hired the 15 tallest players because basketball is a tall man game? When I was hiring carpenters, I searched hard for the best carpenters. Sometimes, I only needed steady blue collar type grinders. As a manager, I wasn't building the right kind of crew. Often, morale suffered because I'd have guys doing jobs that they weren't happy doing. Some guys were wanting to do more creative and complicated things and sometimes I'd have guys in managing positions that only wanted to bend nails. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I'm going to be reading the goal soon, better get on it since I have a "book report" to do on it. They call them something much fancier in grad-school, but it's a book report.
Anyway, I've heard good things, I take it you recommend?
Who Moved My Cheese was a quick easy read but not earth shattering IMO
the Goal was a keeper.... but then , i never met a book that i could tossMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
mike- i have been waiting for you to read " first break all the rules" It seems we have the same impression
my objection to it--is that it is self contradictory
it's premise---is that people don't change--especially employees
but that somehow-"managers" must be higher life forms-------and simply by reading the book--capable of change-----but must operate on the principle that their employees will never ever change----------
contradictory
stephen
I didn't see it as contradictory at all. It did explain to me why I had failed for so many years to move my employees to greater achievements: they didn't want them! In my earlier years, I had this delusion that every apprentice wanted to be a carpenter. I thought every carpenter wanted to learn everything about their trade. I thought every carpenter aspired to be a lead carpenter or foreman. I thought every lead or foreman wanted to own and operate a construction business. I thought every business owner wanted to grow a fabulously successful business and retire wealthy. This book explained reality to me and did it in a way that connected with my real world experiences. It helped me to stop souring relationships with ordinary workers who only aspired to have a 40 hour job with no extra responsibilities or duties. It helped me to better interview for these types of jobs instead of seeking the most ambitious types, who I always assumed would be the best candidates. It helped me see the structure of a simple framing crew for what it really was: something comprised of a manager and several workers who were satisfied to be just that: workers...not managers. I don't see the contradiction but for me it provided clarity. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
blue-- you don't find it contradictory that the central premise of the book--is that people don't change
and yet-- the books goal--is to " change "the reader ?
stephen
No. I think you are misunderstanding or misstating it.The readers are already managers and they are attempting to manage smarter and take the insights of the best managers and apply them. The book is talking to managers and telling them that they shouldn't try to overdo it when they attempt to "manage". So, managers will be managers. Workers will be workers. Mangers will do better if they don't try to teach their workers to be managers. If managing is in their blood, they'll reach out and figure out how to get to that role themselves. For instance, I recently went on a week long cruise. I got to watch 1300 staff work very hard to make our stay pleasant. It was intriguing to see how the room stewards worked their butts off making our rooms the best they could. The dining room staff loved their jobs and happily served us, showing us magic tricks, dancing on tables. Everyone seemed to have their roles and it all works. Yes, they are making good money and that is too be expected but should those workers be aspiring to take their talents elsewhere? Maybe become bank tellers or accountants? Take me for example. I'm very disorganized and don't have any ability to create a logical filing system. If someone just looked at my decades as a business man, they could make the assumption that I'd be good at keeping a set of books and keeping things organized in and office...after all, I have two decades or more of doing that right? In reality, I'd be the worst guy for that job. Don't ask me to keep the books...my eyes would glaze over. You are a stickler for details. You probably don't get many leaks in roofs you replace or repair. Other tradesmen are better at creating art in their work. They might make prettier flashings but gloss over the hidden details. Accountants work well with numbers....don't ask them to answer the phone and deal with clients! That's the sort of stuff the managers are being coached to do. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
that's some pretty nifty tap dancing you are doing there blue-----
but I still gotta say--hooooie.
the authors central premise has a huge flaw---and is,in fact disproved time and again here on breaktime( tell me--where do "managers" come from?---- often from the ranks of "workers"-who the author apparently feels are incapable of change !" first break all the rules"-DOES contain some techniques that might be valuable---but those are independent of the flawed premise. If the history of mankind--teaches us ANYTHING---it is that change is in-evitable( otherwise we would all still be picking lice out of each others fur back in Africa, LOL)-- it's the humans ability to change(adapt) that allows us to out-compete the other species.people un-willing to adapt------will metaphorically perish--- people willing to change-to adapt---will survive--perhaps even thrive and prosper.actually- the lessons you claim are inherent in "first break all the rules"---are more effectively outlined in " who moved my cheese"-AND-without the defective premisebut--we are on the edge of quibbling over sematics-----a-la" not negotiating is anegotiation"gotta run---winter ends today , for me---time to generate some tuition checks,
stephen
Guys... I have to say that an awful lot of you have a terrible attitude in business.
Far too many here have the approach that the customer sucks and is a jerk and you are doing him som e sort of favor by even comtemplating to possibility that you will grace them with your work.
Also... way too many of you are problably working too cheaply in the first place... that translates into animosity for the client because you are not happy with what you earn.
How some of you are still in business or are ever to be successful is beyond me.
I'm not trying to be a jerk about it but I'm just being bluntly honest. Go back through and re-read the posts.
The customer is supposed to get what he can for the best price.... you are supposed to get the best price for what you do.... basic principle of business.
Learn not to sell yourself short and also how to remain tactful in negotiations. Really.
I would vernture to say that the number one roadblock to success as a carpenter is underselling one's self. I too am guilty of this but I've gotten much better. Think of how often you are working for peanuts when you do the math on what you made and how much time you put into it.... I will guarantee that many of you are often displeased with the amounts you make on projects yet you are the one that bid them at that price.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
You are too hung up on the defective premise argument. You are failing to look objectively at the authors findings because you instinctively know that every manager was a worker at one time. Yes, you are correct. Most managers were workers at one time. Does that mean that we should now try to coax every worker into the ranks of managers? Wouldn't we be spinning our wheels? The book tells us to hire for the talent. It warns about hiring knowledge and experience at the expense of searching for the right talent. It tells how to provide the right tools and attitudes daily to maximize productivity. Is there a contradiction in those writings? The author is not telling us that no one changes. They are telling us that the talents that each of us own will manifest themselves if they are exposed to the right management techniques. They will blossom under the right mangement and wilt if pushed into the wrong career path. I personally have witnessed that first hand with my guys over the years. I wasn't astute enough to see it happening and understand it but that book opened my eyes to my misplaced efforts. I no longer try to mold framers into foremen. Some framers just love to frame. If I put the pressures of leadership onto them, they fail, falter and slowly diminish in all respects. Once the pressure is put on them, there's no turning back. They can never assimilate back to being a "framer" once they failed at being a foreman. Their ego forces them to move on to another crew where they re-blossom as a framer. You've mentioned that you are moving your business operation into a realm of employees, whereas over the years you've operated as an individual with few regular employees. If so, I urge you to re-think your opposition to the premises put forth in this book. Your life will be much easier if you face these facts early in the employee/employer relationship. This is a classic book about Chiefs and Indians. Not every indian wants to be chief. That was a hard lesson for me to learn and it cost me dearly in my early years in business. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I would agree--- "who moved my cheese"--isn't earth shattering
but it provides 4 handy quick classifications to deal with peopleMy parents were overwhelmingly" Hem" types
and a lot of the people we meet here on breaktime seem to be "hem" types as well
i think the older you get--- the greater the tendency for most people to be a "hem"--you get used to playing by a certain set of rules--perhaps the same rules your parents, your teachers, your society taught you as a kid( so they MUST be the right rules???)
and then the rules change---the cheese gets moved-----the factory moves out of town----you get downsized-whatever
and it's easy to get caught up in---" that's not fair-- i played by the rules!!!!"
how profound you find it-might depend on how many factories you have seen move out of town,LOLI think mike has watched the textile industry disappear in his life time--- i have watched the tire building industry disappear from my town---and blue has watched what happened in the detroit area
our perspectives-might be different if we had lived in a different-and growing economic area
hey-best wishes to you,
stephen
I've made the mistake of hanging on too long too Stephen and I believe that I have to use that experience and the wisdom that the book delivers to move forward smarter and wiser, even as I restart here in Austin. I see some of the same signs here that I've already lived through in MI. I'm not going to be hemming and hawing in this market blindly. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I'd say you're justified and at the same time losing your temper how ever minor it may have been was a bad idea.
Not saying I would have done anything differently, in fact last summer I had the same situation, I've quoted 4 jobs for this particular person and all 4 times they have gone with someone else because of price. When they called the 5th time I simply stated I wasn't interested and gave them my reason why.
They seemed offended that I wouldn't quote the job.
Anyway, one more reason to charge for proposals I guess.
After countless estimates for various projects for a neighbor who either ended up going with someoe else, or never doing certain projects, I finally refused his last request for an estimate on a portico this past fall.
I went as far as meeting with him and discussing what it was he wanted to do. At which time I made several suggestions as to what could/should be done. His feeling was basically, "whatever is cheapest".
While I have no problem working to save money on a project with a customer, I never look for the "cheapest" route. My mind just doesn't work that way. I always look for the best way, and then try and scale back where permissable.
After about ten minutes in front of my computer with my notes on his project, I called him up and told him I wasn't interested after all. When he asked why not, I listed the half dozen or so estimates I had already worked up for him that ended up being dead ends. He started to protest, but I cut him off and explained that I would be perfectly happy to provide an estimate on the portico after he cut me a check for the time and attention I had already given his various other projects.
He wasn't happy, but we've been cool as neighbors ever since.
Beware the bikini clad female.
She may be interpreted as offensive.
Weren't you the one with the neighbor built his own deck story. Then invited you for a cook out and tried to throw you under the bus for the price and his wife complimented your arms? If it was you is this the same guy? Funny if so.
Even if it wasn't you the story is one of my favorites to repeat I have heard on this board. DanT
Yeah....that's me.
Different neighbor though.
Beware the bikini clad female.
She may be interpreted as offensive.
Thanks for the replies. I feel better now. Cag is right IMO because I think I should have my temper under control during business. I have a somewhat short fuse but am far more moderate about it at 51 than I was at 21.
I really don't mind the negotiation part, but I think once the ground rules are set they should remain in place. I guess everyone doesn't think the way I do. So they must be wrong! lol.
I really appreciate the feed back from everyone. It is helpful sometimes to gain insite from those who have been there. DanT
Dan last year went to look at a bathroom remodel for a guy i used to go to church with, He said he had a bad back but could he help to lower the price, Then i asked where his wife and 6 kids were , He said he had a new wife but hes broke could i bring odds and ends of lumber??? After an hour of this i said Hey now im coming over for free with MY lumber, WTF, Me being nice but i blew my top with all his sob storys, He found out who my helper was, Hired him and stiffed him, The guy still calls once a month for estimates and calls every contractor in town, No shame at all. I dont waste any more time with these people anymore, I know your guy is not as bad as this but if i hear one thing i forget it. I never call the plumber and start giving him sob storys or ask does he have any used parts
holy shid , bobbys... you should write for Steve Martin's movie scripts..
<<<<Dan last year went to look at a bathroom remodel for a guy i used to go to church with, He said he had a bad back but could he help to lower the price, Then i asked where his wife and 6 kids were , He said he had a new wife but hes broke could i bring odds and ends of lumber??? After an hour of this i said Hey now im coming over for free with MY lumber, WTF, Me being nice but i blew my top with all his sob storys, He found out who my helper was, Hired him and stiffed him, The guy still calls once a month for estimates and calls every contractor in town, No shame at all. I dont waste any more time with these people anymore, I know your guy is not as bad as this but if i hear one thing i forget it. I never call the plumber and start giving him sob storys or ask does he have any used parts>>>>
you guys are killin meMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Good for you. I've only had to ever get that tone in my voice once or twice. At the time, I walked away saying aw heck what did I do now. In hindsight, right call. Trust your instinct. You'll be ok, and you might actually have done exactly what was needed, which is clarify the parameters under which you will do work. Some people need different forms of clarification.
Real trucks dont have sparkplugs
Dan
A little back and forth seems to be a way of life these days but when the buyer wants to work me over I always tell myself he's trying to become the seller and get me to buy into his deal that's my job to sell it and I don't let that happen if they're not happy up front you can bet they won't be happy in the end and you're standing there looking at the never ending punchlist and he's holding you up on the last payment.
This guy knows your a quality guy he also knows the economics if he uses you he gets a great job at a fair market price if you buy into his deal he gets a great job and puts the discount in his bank account
Zeeya
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I think you did all that you could, and did allthat could be asked of you in a situation that an A Hole put you in.
I generally let people like your customer aware of the fact that I can stay home and actually make money at this point of my life. Or I can go to their house, make their life better, tend to their needs, lose money, and still not have my own stuff done, because I spent my time making their life better. Then I tell them to contact me at home - or hopefully - shop around 'cause I don't think we're a good fit for each other.
You do have to keep your guys busy though - which adds a different dynamic. I work mostly alone. But two shifts at the present time so some people must like what I offer.
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
dan... i think he's just lonely and he likes having someone to talk to
"So, what say yea old breaktimers. Did I blow it?"
Absolutely not. What you did was develop respect for you and your company. Not only from him, but from us.
The problem is his, don't make it yours.
I had some clients similar when I was stockbreaking. (They're in all businesses.) Only when I put my foot down, did they start with respect. Before that, I was a pigeon waiting for them to pluck me.
Being slow is no reason to part with your own self-respect. There are better clients out there looking for you. When you waste time with these maggots, you can't hear the other guys calling, "Dan, Dan, Where are you?" Use that slow time to develop your marketing.
But then maybe you could come back with this after he trys to beat you down again: "If I cut this price, what are YOU gonna do for me to make it up?"
Edited 3/1/2008 8:26 pm ET by peteshlagor
Sure, you blew it - by forgetting a few elementary pricing principles.
The first is: know your costs of keeping your doors open. Quote less than that, and you're running a charity. It's not your place to subsidize others' dreams.
The second is, save your sharp pencil for those who deserve it. Who deserves a 'good' price? Someone who has already proven to provide steady work, and to pay promptly. Someone who know what they want.
Most others pay full rates.
A few get charged extra. Those who are bad risks, hard to work with, don't know what they want, who are reluctant to pay the bill .... they get charged a premium. If they go to your competition, you kill two birds with one stone.
Otherwise, consider trying an approach similar to his. If he says "knock $50 off," you reply with "I just found an error, and will have to raise $100."
Stress.
Makes us irritable and impatient.
All we can do is better--next time.
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it! Decks Blog
You're dealing with a personality type. They are not going to change their ways. What you have to do is develop a strategy to get around them so your blood pressure doesn't go through the roof. I would start by charging for estimates. If you keep giving in to them that only fuels the fire of them doing it more and you getting upset.
You may have already done the right thing because now this guy knows that you will bite if pushed too far. You may also want to level with him and tell him that you won't work for him anymore if he continues to nickel & dime.
I recognize that it's tough when work is slow and you really need the job and you have to weigh the situation. It's tough right now for builders.
There's lots of good advice on this thread for you.
No, I don't think you blew it. Hard as it was, I think you did the right thing
Dan,
Several other respondents have given you hints that the behavior you are describing may be cultural. (It could, of course, just be a personality trait.) No matter its origin, it is certainly best approached with good humor.
I grew up in Lebanon, where negotiation is expected by both parties -- the buyer and the seller. Negotiation is an art and a pleasure. The seller starts high; the buyer makes a low offer. Both are in good humor during the process, even when it may be necessary for the buyer to point out all the defects in the object being purchased (to which the seller responds in kind, pointing out all of the excellent virtues in his wares). Win or lose, both sides leave with a smile.
Such behavior is sometimes misunderstood by Americans, who interpret it (wrongly) as rudeness or cheapness. Anyway, try not to lose your temper.
I guess we are in the same camp as far as humor is concerned. I don't think Dan was wrong for walking away from the negotiations and if he wants to let the client know his true feelings about how annoyed he is, that's okay too. I just think humor and a laugh will get him out of there faster, easier and with less stress. Furthermore, when the guy calls in the future, he'd be able to use the laugh again and just say "Hahahahah....I'm not going to do that dance with you again. Sorry, I don't mind coming over for a beer, but I'm not really interested in polishing my negotiation skills with you. You're too good at it and I always end up losing. Thanks for thinking about me though. Bye!".I think that's called "letting the other guy save face" and exiting gracefully with no stress. The guy might not deserve it, but it's really done for our own purposes, isn't it? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Dan,
One other comment: there appear to be two sources of your anger:
1. The client repeatedly requested proposals but, until the most recent job, did not decide to hire you.
2. The client always tries to negotiate a lower price.
Here's a new way to look at your dilemma: as a businessperson, you have decided to offer your customers free proposals. It's not surprising that your customers take you up on the offer. Why shouldn't they? The proposals are free.
So, does it make sense to get mad at your customers when they take you up on your free offer?
If you find yourself frustrated, it may be time to look in the mirror and change your business plan. Start charging for proposals. Then, when someone tries to negotiate a lower price, stick to your original price, with a smile on your face.
Finally, if a customer strikes you as potentially difficult -- someone who pushes your buttons -- you are under no obligation to come up with a proposal. "I'm sorry, but because of my current work schedule, I'm unable to consider your work at this time."
""I'm sorry, but because of my current work schedule, I'm unable to consider your work at this time.""
So you think lying to the guy will make me feel better? I said we are slow. I mean if we are busy ok I can say that but under the circumstances.......I don't know.
We just moved into a new shop and I am already halfway done at putting everything away. The last move that took a year. So I should tell him I'm too busy and then head back to mopping a floor or stocking a shelf. Ok, I'll give it a try. Thanks for the advice. DanT
Heres my thoughts!
The guy is obviously a bit of a PIA. (hey, lots of em are)
He paid you for the job and the check cleared. (that's a positive)
Do you think he is going to stick you? He did not try to squeeze you once the job was started and paid the full amount so that is a plus. If you think you might get stuck, trust your instincts and stay away.
If you just dont like the nickel dime negotiations, get over it. Some people are wired to negotiate till the end. (is he a buyer for a company or something like that where his job is to negotiate?)
You are a professional and need to represent youself as such.
If he doesnt call you by Tuesday, Pick up the phone, apologize for your demeanor on Friday and re-iterate that you would like to do more business with him at the price you quoted. (I'd even say that I had a rough day and he caught me at a bad time, and sorry for that, etc. (with sincerity))
Even if he doesnt call you back for the job, at least he can only tell people that you did a great job on the shower and you were professional. (my bet is that he will call you back if you play it right, might even stop dickering with you, and perhaps even give you a referral on a 200K renovation)
Dan,
Remember that this guys frugality is possibly the reason he has enough money to pay for someone else to do work for him.
The next time you go to buy a new car, should you not haggle with the salesman?
Matter-of-fact, your client wasn;t trying to beat you up on price as much as he was hoping to get a deal if he combined multiple bids... no harm in trying.
Now.... I would have handled it much differently. If I didin't want to give a deal I would have said something like "I'm sorry Bill but that's the best I can do on this one".
I may have also seized the opportunity and said that although I couldn;t reduce the price of these two projects I would be able to add a third item that I bid at a slight slight discount.... therefore I could have potentialy turned $800 into a $1200 project.
At any rate.... YOU need to call the customer and apologize for the snippiness. That is good business. This doesn't mean you can't stick to your price but explain that you had a bad day and apologize for the rudeness. Keep it clean, short and professional.
Remember that the customer is always right..... by that I mean that they deserve good treatment from the seller of services (you and I). If you are going to be a businessman, you need to work on that aspect of dealing with clients.
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Read your reply and gave it some thought. You make some good points. And I agree that sometime we need to turn the other cheek in the name of making money and be more warm and fuzzy.
I do work on that although that is not really me by nature. My proof I guess is opening this thread in the first place as I was really questioning myself.
Unlike you however I am unconvinced that one bad incident out of every 50 times dealing with a client makes me a poor businessman. Human yes with a few areas to work on.
But after thinking your response over I decided that I really didn't want to deal with this guy again unless it is on my terms. So I chose (choose) not to call and apologize. Short and sweet or long and sappy I am not going to do it because I just don't care to be "worked" every time I talk to the guy.
As far as treating him well I did so on 4 occasions before he finally booked a job with us. And I set the ground rules during that contract signing and final check pick up.
So thinking about it I think I have done all the cowing down I will do with this client. And let the chips fall where they may. One of the reasons I like being in business is I have at least some say in who I work with.
But I thank you because out of all the answers yours was the one that really got me to think about how I felt about it all. And while I think I could have been a little more mellow I am comfortable with the outcome, either not being called back or being called back with a clearer understanding of how I do business. Thanks! DanT
Dan,
That is entirely your perogative... as we all tend to find out the hard way, there are some clients that just aren't worth dealing with... sometimes at any price.
Although I do realize that the structure of the "contractor" in business is different than that of the retailer of goods, for instance. We tend to operate more on how we wnat to than on how we should. We are often times not as much businessmen as we are tradesmen and that is too often our undoing.
That being said, it is always good practice to conduct ourselves like the retailer, not the contractor. Cetainly you could have acheived the same result of turning down your client while exercising better relation skills.
Even when dealing with unwanted clients, how you treat them may extend beyond just them. I try to be mindful of that too in building what I consider to be my reputation in business. Even if my dealings with that particular client only turn out to be practice for the next time.
I have found that I can stick to my guns, demand what I want and still be very agreeable. It took me some time to get to that place though.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Dan you did great standing up for yourself. I almost never have to deal with this type of stuff, I live in Maine and not New Jersey ... thats a joke. I have relatives and worked a few jobs there. But really you did fine and you didn't even blow it if he never calls you again. you did the right thing and if he doesn't understand your cost and the quality of your work he wont even if he gets it at his price.
keep on taking care of your self
Carpentry and remodeling
Vic Vardamis
Bangor Me