Blocking for cabs in exterior wall??
DesignBuild
| Posted in Energy, Heating & Insulation on
working on my kitchen reno and was about to install blocking for my cabs, is this a mistake in my exterior walls because of the reduced amount of insulation I will have in each bay? I am in the northeast (Jersey) so we do get some cold winters. Wall construction is 2×4, so I drop in 2×6 blocking and I lose 1.5″ of insulation at each blocking location. Was planning on using spray in foam when it is time to insulate. I’ve done plenty of renovation work so installing cabs without blocking is something I have done many times before, but I won’t argue that its pretty damn nice to have it if you can.
Any advice? Thanks!
Replies
Design Build,
Use french cleats instead.. No loss of insulation and very strong plus you can do all the work of installing them before you are putting them up.. you simply lift the cabinet up and let it slide down into the reciever.. really heavy cabinets you can double the cleats (measure carefully)
Do you have to build custom cabs for this to work?The cabs we typically install are practically flat across the back. There would definitely not be room for a 3/4" hanging rail.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
JonBlakemore,
you can use 1/2 plywood to make them, so a piece of 3/4 inch trim will cover any gap.
sorry Frenchy -- I'm an anti-trim kinda guy, everything needs to be clean and crisp. I am actually still trying to determine if I will be making the cabs myself, in which case I can recess the cabinet back and build the french cleat into them - not a bad solution if I build them myself. I actually don't have many wall cabinets, and the narrowest - wall or base - is 18". I think you're right Jon - I'll take a closer look at my plans and framing and just be selective about where I place it. Want to maximize my insulation as best I can.Thanks for the advice
If it's taken this long to decide, blocking or not, I can't imagine how long it must have taken to decide the door and drawer style. Put the blocking in and be done with it. You can add $1.00 per year to your fuel allowance for the loss at this particular point of your building.
However, you can recess the female end of the cleat within the cabinet, thus making any trim unnecessary.
Regards, Scooter"I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow." WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Use french cleats instead A little biased aren't we?
henley,
That's the trouble with my name, people see it and automatically assume I'm one of those French bigots who speaks only French, drivesa Citroen, and have two mistresses.
Actually I'm 99% German, Drive a Chevy Pickup, and have a wife of 30+ years. Only the name is French
I didn't know you had such a young wife.
I'm not as funny as I think I am
But isn't your first
name Cleatus ?
On a few jobs with this situation we simply covered the wall with plywood and then drywalled over it. Then you can shoot a screw or whatever anywhere you want and have no issue with the insulation. DanT
Would anyone be able to post pictures of cabinets with the french cleat attached? It doesn't seem like you could add the cleat to any just any box, would the cabinet construction have to be special to accommodate this? I'd love to see an article or a book with this detailed in it. Any recommendations or pics would be terrific.
Thankyou.
TC5
I'm sorry I don't have that ability a french cleat is a strip of wood the length of the box or cabinet say 4 or 5 inches wide. the bottom edge of the cleat is at a 45 degree angle .. a similar board is screwed to the wall also with a 45 degre cut along it's top edge (the bevel on the cabinet is is on the bottomof the strip of wood)
when you slide the cabinet over the cleat on the wall the bevels wedge the cabinet firmly into the wall holding the cabinet with all the weight in the cabinet.
Oh, thanks anyway. I understand how the cleat idea works, I just don't know all that would have to be done to the cabinet to make the cleat work. Especially factory type cabs. It seems like you would have carve out part of each side of each cabinet box? And what do you do at the bottom of the wall cabinet? You would have to attach a spacer of equal thickness. Then you have to deal with a 3/4" gap visible beneath each cab?
tc5
Based on your questions I suspect you aren't clear as to how they work..
Ok first how are these cabinets made?.. production cabinet means little in actaul construction technique. Some cabinets have the back panel recessed slightly as an aide to making the cabinet sit flat against the wall.. you scribe the wall to the back offset.. belt sand to the scribe line and now the cabinet sits. flat.. Most of those don't have any revel when they are sitting on a french cleat
The only revel would be if the cleat is thicker than the offset, I've seen 1/2 plywood used successfully as a cleat so as long as the cleat is thinner than the offset.. I suspect you could even 3/8ths plywood if you went to two rows of french cleats.
While some hang the cabinets on nothing more than the french cleat others will calculate where the stud is and in that location run longer screws thru the back of the cabinet and thru the cleat and sheet rock, right into the stud.. That's what I call a belt and suspenders approach.
Flat back cabinets would have a revel which could be covered up with molding. yes those you would need to put at least another strip of wood equal to the thickness of the french cleat.. If you are capable of either careful transfer (my prefered method) or carefull measurement you can make the bottom spacer another french cleat to share the load..
One other advantage of french cleats is the wire for in cabinet wiring if it's low voltage wire can be slid in the track made by the french cleat.. you won't need to bury it in the wall. If the cleat is thick enough then armorflex could be used to protect even 110V wiring.
A discusion should be asked as to the thickness of the cabinet backs flimsey 1/4 plywood/particle board is going to be hard stressed to carry the weight of a cabinet loaded with heavy dishes. that's the advantage of a french cleat.. in that case you glue and screw the cleat on as a reinfocement to the bakc 1/4 inch thick plus 1/2 inch thick glued and screwed together becomes 3/4 which has a pretty decent load carring capacity.
Thanks Frenchy getting clearer-
Suppose we take a "typical" factory cabinet which has the back recessed in ½†or even ¾â€so that the sides could be scribed if you hung them in the normal fashion. Now add the cleat to the back of the cabinet and the ¾†thick cleat (or ½†cleat) sits in the recess of the back of the cabinet. I assume the mating wall cleat (or rail?) will be as long and continuous as the run will allow. But the cabinet cannot hook onto the wall cleat (rail?) because the cabinet cleat is recessed, so we must have to notch out parts of the cabinet sides to let the wall cleat (rail?) mate in to the cabinet cleat. This is the only way I can see that this would work, unless you pad out the recess so the cleat then is flush with the back. Am I getting it?
<!----><!----> <!---->
tc5
No,, if the cabinet is 28 inches wide Between the sides then the cleat is that same 28 inches wide*, both top and bottom of the cleat. or box mount and wall mount portion .. A French cleat is in pairs.I use 45degrees as the bevel because it's simple but I've seen everything up to 60degree bevel between them. If a second pair of cleats is called for at the bottom of the box for load reasons it's best to put the wall part on with the box portion prepared, glued etc.. Then once the cabinet is set in place you run in the screws that have been predrilled for the box portion. That way you completely avoid mismeasuring and have the bottom cleat off by a tiny fraction so the cleat doesn't carry any weight.
Whenever I install french cleats I do so with many screws forming a decorative effect. If I ever find cabinet backs that are recessed but 3/4 inches thick I would make up wooden pugs counter bore the screw holes and place plugs in them. with a 1/2 thick or thinner cabinet back there just isn't enough material to effectively hide the plugs. That way with a little care upon gluing the plugs in place to match the grain and shade of wood they become invisable to all but the most carefull examination.
*actually for ease of hanging I'll make the cleat just slightly narrower.
Wait! trying to understand what you don't seem to grasp you do realize the bevel is what holds the cabinet to the wall don't you? The top cleat grabs the bottom cleat and the cabinet slides down the bevel and the bevel wedges the cabinet into the wall.
Edited 3/24/2008 3:49 pm ET by frenchy
I understand the opposing angles on cleat and rail is how the system works. But the point I was missing was that you use individual wall cleats for each individual cabinet. I had a notion in my mind that the wall cleat (rail) should be long and continuous so as to span and attach to all available studs in the run. This is the only way a cleat and hang rail system could be effective. Otherwise hanging individual wall cleats has no advantage over hanging individual cabinets and for boxes with recessed backs I can't see where this is a good idea.
Thanks Frenchy.
tc5
You could do that as well, I keep describing how to hang cabinets on SIP's where the load is carried by 1/2 inch OSB. I'm sorry, I should have paused and rethought in terms of 2x4's. In that case you would run them the full length as you say and cut out for the bottom or load carring cleat . Stop short of the end panel so it doesn't show..
So then!!! if we agree to use a long continuous wall cleat, we have to worry about carving out notches in each of the sides of the cabinets. Best way to do this? A router with a flush trim bit? What is your preference?
Thanks.
tc5
Since they won't show why not just hack them out with a jig saw. True a router would be neater but once up they will remain in place untill it's time to restyle so no one will be able to see how neatly things were done. plus it would be horrible to carefully notch everything out at the shop only to come back on site and find out your measurements didn't account for the cabinets settling or you measured from the wrong place etc..
That's one of those preferance areas, Some would carefully measure mark and route out, some will hold up in place and transfer the mark while others whould do whatever is quickest..
I was thinking this could easily be done on site and you wouldn't have to precisely locate the notches with a pattern bit or a flush trim bit - just run it in and zip off a length by eye. Jig saw is just as well.
This was good Frenchy, thanks. Next time I get a kitchen, I'm going to try this way.
Regards.
One of the main advantages of the cleat system is the ability to
move or reset cabinets as you are setting the run.
The height is set while one is free to move side to side, can be useful. Also the cleats pull the cabinet tightly to the wall.
I just don't know all that would have to be done to the cabinet to make the cleat work
Going to hugely depend upon how the cabinet body (called a carcass i nthe trade) has the back attached.
If the back is flush, that can be a pain--but that wil lbe true if there's any bow in the wall, too.
Most "flush" backs have a space, around 1/4"/5mm to lets them scribe to a wall. If yours are like that, they make a metal french cleat system to fit in those dimensions. It's not as cheap as ripped 1x4, but will fit in skinny spaces.
Now, some cabinets are built with the back applied to horizontal nailers. These are either 1x4 (sometimes 1x3); some factories use the "leftover bits" of 5/8 or 1/2 sheet case stock run some uniform width (like 2" or 3") wide.
If the backs are framed in 1x, then adding french cleats are pretty easy. Rip a convenient 1x at 45º. Cut one stick to fit between the end panels with the bevel down. Other piece goes to the wall bevel up.
In a perfect world, only the last endpanels would be flush to the wall. Our world, sadly is under-perfect. In that case, about half notch the end panels for a continous wall cleat; the other half use a short wall cleat to fit between the panels.
Another about equal split on whether a bottom cleat is required. If the cabinets are more than 36" tall, I kind of like an unbeveled bottom cleat for the solid feel of getting the 'right' number of screws in the cabinet.
But, all of that is driven by impression, practice, preception, and other unique and personal opinions and biases; others' differ strongly sometimes.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Another option is to cut out the drywall and install a wide strip of plywood as a continious nailer. This is similar to the method used to hang cabinets on steel studs. Since it is an outside wall mud and tape the seam to eliminate drafts.
I would at least go over your cab layout and determine which cabinets do not have good framing to screw to.
For instance, sometimes you can get in to trouble with a 12" cabinet if it's centered in a stud bay. You would be relying on the connection to the face frame to the adjacent cabinets, unless you installed some type of hollow wall anchor.
A 36" cabinet will have at least two studs (if the studs are 16" OC). Blocking may ease the installation, but at a cost of insulation.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I think you've got the right answer. I have in the past gone to some trouble to install cabinet blocking only to have someone else install the cabs and ignore it entirely. Most cabinets can be hung on studs. For the odd 12" that falls in a stud bay, you can figure something else out (like cutting in a piece of plywood) but only if you miss studs completely.
I use french cleats as well. Any projection gap caused by the cleat will be covered by the endpanels that I install after initial install. I finish the bottom of the cabs with panels as well after the lighting is decided upon.
"It is what it is."
If you have a 2x4 wall and use closed cell foam you can still get R14 behind the blocking, or, you could cover the cabinet wall with 3x4" ply, this should give you enough grabbing power when you are inbetween studs but you would have to spray the foam first.